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Originally Posted by albumblatter
What makes you think that way?

Because a top-rate composer can still manage to shine through a lousy performance.


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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by albumblatter
What makes you think that way?

Because a top-rate composer can still manage to shine through a lousy performance.

.....not to mention that mediocre or bad ones can't necessarily be rescued. smile

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Originally Posted by BachStudent
I either have an abnormal obsession or its just simple fact that J. S. Bach is literally the greatest most unsurpassable composer that will ever exist on Earth. I truly believe that every single composer, dead, alive or yet to be born will not come close to the quality of Bach's music. Even in Handel's music I find imperfections, insecure notes, yawn etc... I find that any music I listen to that isn't by Bach is simply not as good as Bach, and that I might as well be listening to Bach.

I've been stuck like this for almost 8 years and my love for Bach's music is only growing stronger as I get older. I've talked about this to people and have had people somewhat agree with me and others have called me a "noob" or something like that which is okay, i do respect others tastes and opinions.

The only person I've known that continues to share the same belief happens to be somewhat of a mathematical prodigy. Correlation?

I hate to seem pretentious or anything like that, but I truly believe that anyone who listens to enough Bach can eventually come to the same conclusion.


Agree completely... with everything you say. Without Bach the human race would be a different species. (I really believe that.)

Edit: I'm a bit of a "humanist-atheist": a good stint in a high Anglican boys choir will do that to you.

But if I were to find God, it would be through Bach ... the St. Mat's Passion; not to mention all the Cantatas.

Listening as I write to Winona Zelinka's Bach Cello Suites on Spotify (for free). Wow....

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Bach - literally the best composer ever?

Yes.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by BachStudent
I either have an abnormal obsession or its just simple fact that J. S. Bach is literally the greatest most unsurpassable composer that will ever exist on Earth. I truly believe that every single composer, dead, alive or yet to be born will not come close to the quality of Bach's music. Even in Handel's music I find imperfections, insecure notes, yawn etc... I find that any music I listen to that isn't by Bach is simply not as good as Bach, and that I might as well be listening to Bach.

I've been stuck like this for almost 8 years and my love for Bach's music is only growing stronger as I get older. I've talked about this to people and have had people somewhat agree with me and others have called me a "noob" or something like that which is okay, i do respect others tastes and opinions.

The only person I've known that continues to share the same belief happens to be somewhat of a mathematical prodigy. Correlation?

I hate to seem pretentious or anything like that, but I truly believe that anyone who listens to enough Bach can eventually come to the same conclusion.


For what it's worth, I feel the same way. And I've been "stuck" too for many years in my obsession with Bach. I listen to many other kinds of music, classical, jazz, rock, pop etc. I keep an eye on new music coming out. But I always return to Bach. And on my piano, I almost exclusively play Bach.
I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I am a lover of mathematics also. I chose my education to have a lot of math, so I have a solid mathematical background/foundation. But my love of Bach came before. It started when I was 17 years old.


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A Music History professor, who has a Doctorate from Juilliard, said that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven are commonly regarded as the three greatest composers who ever lived, and that there is no point in arguing over which one of them was the best. With that said, during the nineteenth century, most musicians considered Beethoven the greatest of all composers. Leonard Bernstein also shared that view. He said that Beethoven was better than Haydn and Mozart because Beethoven's emotions are bigger and easier to see. Bernstein also said that out of all the composers, Beethoven had the best sense of form and musical logic. Bernstein called that quality "inevitability." He said that in Beethoven's greatest works, you get a sense that every note he wrote is the only note that could possibly have been written, as if Beethoven was taking dictation from Heaven. Even when the music does something unexpected, on reflection, it seems completely logical and inevitable. Bernstein said that even Mozart didn't possess that sense of inevitability to the same degree that Beethoven did.

Of course, not everyone agrees with Bernstein's views. There are some fervent Mozart supporters who insist that he was the best, and some equally fervent Bach supporters who say the same about Bach. Nevertheless, I don't think it's pointless to try to ascertain which composer was the greatest. Sometimes, one person in a field is considered the absolute best (e.g. Shakespeare).

When assessing composers, I think that a plausible argument can be made that Beethoven speaks most directly to the heart and is thereby the greatest. Beethoven's music reached levels of dramatic power and emotional profundity that were well beyond anything that Bach or Mozart had ever achieved. If the primary purpose of music is to appeal to emotion, then it could be said that Beethoven did that more effectively than Bach or Mozart (as his music has greater emotional intensity). With that said, some Mozart supporters have argued that Mozart's music has an elegance and a natural beauty that Beethoven was never achieve (despite his superior dramatic power).

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Originally Posted by LaReginadellaNotte
....Bernstein...said that in Beethoven's greatest works, you get a sense that every note he wrote is the only note that could possibly have been written, as if Beethoven was taking dictation from Heaven....

I think Beethoven was great and all that grin and I like Bernstein too, but I gotta say, I have that impression even more with Bach, and for what it's worth, I think it's a more common view of Bach than of Beethoven. With Beethoven, I'd say there's more of an impression of "work," and I'd even say that I can usually imagine that he might well have 'worked' it differently and it might have been just as great. Not so much with Bach.

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by LaReginadellaNotte
....Bernstein...said that in Beethoven's greatest works, you get a sense that every note he wrote is the only note that could possibly have been written, as if Beethoven was taking dictation from Heaven....

I think Beethoven was great and all that grin and I like Bernstein too, but I gotta say, I have that impression even more with Bach, and for what it's worth, I think it's a more common view of Bach than of Beethoven. With Beethoven, I'd say there's more of an impression of "work," and I'd even say that I can usually imagine that he might well have 'worked' it differently and it might have been just as great. Not so much with Bach.

That's an interesting observation, Mark, and I certainly wasn't implying that all musicians share Bernstein's views. As a matter of fact, some people regard Mozart as the supreme musical logician. Musicologist David Ewen said that there are passages in Beethoven that some wish had been written differently, but you don't experience that with Mozart. Everything seems in perfect proportion. Not a single melody is too long or too short, not a single instrumentation is over-refined or overladen, no development is too complex or too slight.

Perhaps the Music History professor had a point when he said that there's no use arguing over who was the all-time greatest composer. Even when we isolate a single criteria (e.g. "musical logic"), experts don't always agree on who possessed that quality to the greatest degree.


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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by BachStudent
Another thing about Bach's music is that every single piece he wrote had completely unique character that seems to have never been unearthed before, a trait that I don't see in any other composers music. His music does not exhibit basic characterization as happy or sad or angry which seems to be all too common in most composers. I find that most composers pick a basic emotion/theme and stick with it throughout the piece.

Actually, there are two composers who, by common consent, exhibit this trait of 'smiling through tears'. Neither have the initials J.S.B. wink

Mozart's music has been picked apart, scrutinized, examined microscopically ad nauseam as to why it often sounds so ambiguous. Is his K550 all "Grecian lightness and grace" (Schumann) or an 'opera buffa' (Tovey) - or "a work of passion, violence and grief" (Rosen), for example?

Whereas Bach's music is never commented upon in this manner.......


it's because Bach music makes them speechless ;-)

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Originally Posted by LaReginadellaNotte
As a matter of fact, some people regard Mozart as the supreme musical logician. Musicologist David Ewen said that there are passages in Beethoven that some wish had been written differently, but you don't experience that with Mozart. Everything seems in perfect proportion. Not a single melody is too long or too short, not a single instrumentation is over-refined or overladen, no development is too complex or too slight.


Actually, I agree with Ewen, and so do many composers, from Mendelssohn to Tchaikovsky to Ravel and even Poulenc, who have used Mozart as their model when composing some of their music. Even Beethoven use Mozart as his model for some of his compositions (the most blatant of which is his Piano & Wind Quintet, which cannot hold a candle to Mozart's). If perfection of structure, form, balance of expression, melodic richness & variety, and proportion is what you're looking for, Mozart beats Beethoven (& Bach) hands down.

I've just watched & listened to Beethoven's Choral Symphony for the nth time (from the BBC Proms), and cannot help thinking (for the nth time) what a 'consciously' great work it is, despite the many awkward - even clumsy - moments in its orchestration and vocal writing.

Beethoven's and Mozart's last symphonies show their differences - one strives strenuously for the heavens, the other just does it effortlessly without trying.......


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Quote
I've just watched & listened to Beethoven's Choral Symphony for the nth time (from the BBC Proms), and cannot help thinking (for the nth time) what a 'consciously' great work it is, despite the many awkward - even clumsy - moments in its orchestration and vocal writing.

Beethoven's and Mozart's last symphonies show their differences - one strives strenuously for the heavens, the other just does it effortlessly without trying.......


So would you consider Mozart's last symphonies superior to Beethoven's Ninth? The vocal writing definitely is awkward. Beethoven himself admitted that when he thinks of a theme, he imagines an instrument playing it; he never imagines a voice singing it. I think that's part of the reason why Beethoven's vocal writing is so graceless.

Despite any potentially awkward passages, I think it's obvious that Beethoven brought unprecedented dramatic power to symphonic music. Berlioz said that Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is superior to all orchestral music that preceded it.

Last edited by LaReginadellaNotte; 07/20/15 05:17 PM.

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Originally Posted by Steve Peterson
On the other hand, as a lyricist, he can't hold a candle to Chopin or Schubert. I appreciate Mahler for his vast scale and sheer emotion. Beethoven wrote with incredible majesty, and his piano sonatas and symphonies are collective works of genius. Debussy wrote music Bach couldn't even conceive of in his time. That's not even mentioning the great jazz composers and performers (can I get a cheer for Oscar Peterson?) or the giants of rock.


There's plenty of lyricism, sheer emotion and majesty in Bach, even on harpsichord. we don't know if he used rubato or the apparent notated strict time is to be used as written, but it's all there anyway

the giants of rock sound more like midgets lol


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Originally Posted by bennevis
Beethoven's and Mozart's last symphonies show their differences - one strives strenuously for the heavens, the other just does it effortlessly without trying.......


and here we see another one on the camp "Beethoven is a deaf brute" smile


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Originally Posted by bennevis
If perfection of structure, form, balance of expression, melodic richness & variety, and proportion is what you're looking for, Mozart beats Beethoven (& Bach) hands down.


And I would say that Bach beats Mozart hands down in these regards. Of course, it's just opinion.

Originally Posted by bennevis

I've just watched & listened to Beethoven's Choral Symphony for the nth time (from the BBC Proms), and cannot help thinking (for the nth time) what a 'consciously' great work it is, despite the many awkward - even clumsy - moments in its orchestration and vocal writing.

Beethoven's and Mozart's last symphonies show their differences - one strives strenuously for the heavens, the other just does it effortlessly without trying.......


I love a lot of Beethovens works, but I've never quite understood why people thinks he belongs in the same class as Mozart, let alone Bach. I find Beethoven labored and clumsy most of the time.
He doesn't have the clarity or effortlessness of Mozart and he doesn't have the perfect order and introspective depth and complexity of Bach. I can't even find the right adjectives to describe Bach.


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Originally Posted by LaReginadellaNotte
So would you consider Mozart's last symphonies superior to Beethoven's Ninth? The vocal writing definitely is awkward. Beethoven himself admitted that when he thinks of a theme, he imagines an instrument playing it; he never imagines a voice singing it.

Personally, I'd sooner have any of Mozart's last three symphonies to Beethoven's 9th, if I were on a desert island grin, but there's no doubt that Wolfie wasn't consciously striving for 'greatness' when he wrote his symphonies, unlike Beethoven, who was definitely out to make a statement with his 9th (akin to his Heiligenstadt testament wink ).

And unlike Bach and (in many respects) Beethoven, Mozart wrote specifically for the instruments and voices, taking into account their tone color, their unique qualities and their ability (or not) to blend, which partly accounts for the 'perfection' of his music. Of course, perfection doesn't necessarily equate to greatness (though with Mozart, much of his best music is not only perfect, but great), and great music doesn't have to be perfect wink .


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If the primary purpose of music is to appeal to emotion, then it could be said that Beethoven did that more effectively than Bach or Mozart (as his music has greater emotional intensity).

That's a big "if." You could argue, I guess, that Bach's religious stuff, St. Mathew's Passion or his Mass in B Minor are, in many places, easily as emotional and powerful as anything Beethoven wrote.

Beethoven? Bach? I like 'em both, myself; but as I get older I've just developed a massive preference for Bach. I CAN tire of Beethoven; but I never tire of Bach. A Geezer thing, perhaps; in my teens I was much more into Beethoven, Mozart, and a whole lot of other stuff, not necessarily classical.

I used to be a hard core objectivist about musical taste, thinking that some composers REALLY WERE better than others.

Long ago I did a 360 on that issue. Music is art, and all art is (in the end) "non-propositional". By that I mean that art isn't like science; its main purpose isn't to find "truth", in the ordinary sense of the word. It can't be objectively "measured" or "valued" in ANY way.

And thank God for that. That's what's so great about music.

So, yup, BACH is the best; but only the best for me.

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I find these "greatest ever" arguments to be so reductive. Music is not a zero sum game. It's one thing to speak of the composer who most speaks to you, but to try to expand that to a conversation about who is the best, especially while invoking the "expertise" of a few hand-picked like-minded individuals, is just silly. It is particularly nonsensical because there are no objective criteria on which to base our arguments. We are left with weak descriptions of vague terms like "architectural" and "effortless" and appeals to authority.

There are lots of great composers. Enjoy them for their differences and what each individually brings to the table.




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Originally Posted by Steve Peterson
I find these "greatest ever" arguments to be so reductive. Music is not a zero sum game. It's one thing to speak of the composer who most speaks to you, but to try to expand that to a conversation about who is the best, especially while invoking the "expertise" of a few hand-picked like-minded individuals, is just silly. It is particularly nonsensical because there are no objective criteria on which to base our arguments. We are left with weak descriptions of vague terms like "architectural" and "effortless" and appeals to authority.

There are lots of great composers. Enjoy them for their differences and what each individually brings to the table.



Yes. This kind of thread typically boils down to a kind of cheer-leading of the "team" one identifies with, with optional bashing of the other teams. I also don't much care for way in which some folks put a few composers on pedestals, and those pedestals keep getting jacked up to ever higher elevations. Yes, the music they wrote can be cause for amazement, but idolization of the composer is, well, kind of sad, not to mention that it tends to diminish all of the "other" composers. IMO.

On the other hand, there's the chance that even these silly comparative threads can get people to think about what they value in classical music, and which composers seem to exemplify those values, and in what way. That might be a good thing, if it happens. But talking about that kind of stuff is hard, and, for me, anyway, trying to articulate my interior thoughts into something that might be comprehensible to someone in the external world may not be worth the effort.


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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by Steve Peterson
I find these "greatest ever" arguments to be so reductive. Music is not a zero sum game. It's one thing to speak of the composer who most speaks to you, but to try to expand that to a conversation about who is the best, especially while invoking the "expertise" of a few hand-picked like-minded individuals, is just silly. It is particularly nonsensical because there are no objective criteria on which to base our arguments. We are left with weak descriptions of vague terms like "architectural" and "effortless" and appeals to authority.

There are lots of great composers. Enjoy them for their differences and what each individually brings to the table.



Yes. This kind of thread typically boils down to a kind of cheer-leading of the "team" one identifies with, with optional bashing of the other teams. I also don't much care for way in which some folks put a few composers on pedestals, and those pedestals keep getting jacked up to ever higher elevations. Yes, the music they wrote can be cause for amazement, but idolization of the composer is, well, kind of sad, not to mention that it tends to diminish all of the "other" composers. IMO.

On the other hand, there's the chance that even these silly comparative threads can get people to think about what they value in classical music, and which composers seem to exemplify those values, and in what way. That might be a good thing, if it happens. But talking about that kind of stuff is hard, and, for me, anyway, trying to articulate my interior thoughts into something that might be comprehensible to someone in the external world may not be worth the effort.



Yup...it's always interesting to hear from others aspects in a composition, things to listen for, approaches to listening itself that are new to you, that you might have missed. That's the real deal. I guess it's the point of "music appreciation" courses when you have a really good teacher, that is.

So "comparisons" have a point: they open up your ears, or your musical mind... possibly.

But to say one composition or one composer or one musical genre is "better" than another is utterly pointless. Yet, it's done ALL the time, esp in classical music. I guess it's what "elitism" means, in part.

I'm sure that wasn't the intention of the posts above, however. Folks is just havin' fun.

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