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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pyropaul] #2442221
07/17/15 02:30 PM
07/17/15 02:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442226
07/17/15 02:53 PM
07/17/15 02:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Here are the rest of the recordings I made last night with my Laptop, Samson G Track USB mic and the Entropy Piano Tuner

Recorded in order, the first was the Hungarian Gypsy Dances...did not touch up unisons for the other 3.

Video and sound is with an Ipad 2 and a Tascam IM2 mic.

1. Hungarian Gypsy Dances https://youtu.be/PjbJGp5Qi9E

2. "Scherzo" in A Flat Borodin https://youtu.be/AFujEu9Il90

3. "Dizzy Fingers" https://youtu.be/8jZJux-__Aw

4. "Eligie" (Eligy) Rachnaminoff https://youtu.be/DChj5OCxT2M


Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pyropaul] #2442231
07/17/15 03:08 PM
07/17/15 03:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.


oh yes seem to me amplitude is recorded


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: prout] #2442281
07/17/15 07:30 PM
07/17/15 07:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 437
M
Musicdude Offline
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout


Ok, so the Entropy tuner calculates based on partial
amplitudes, with some sort of Fletcher–Munson curve
applied to it.

But as you mention, the potential for significantly divergent
solutions for the same piano exists depending on where
you place the microphone.


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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2442299
07/17/15 08:29 PM
07/17/15 08:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout


Ok, so the Entropy tuner calculates based on partial
amplitudes, with some sort of Fletcher–Munson curve
applied to it.

But as you mention, the potential for significantly divergent
solutions for the same piano exists depending on where
you place the microphone.


Yes, though the results are likely to be within a few cents of each other, on a per-note basis. The use of all 88 notes simultaneously in the calculation and a bias toward equally dividing all 88 notes forces the result toward a narrow range of variation in spite of partial amplitude differences. The stretch will change slightly for a bias of strong 6:3 partials over 4:2 for example, but the 7th and 9th partials, to name a few, are often very strong in the bass, and must have equal weight in the calculation along with a weak 8th partial.

prout

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442404
07/18/15 07:57 AM
07/18/15 07:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
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Musicdude Offline
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Dirk's piano tuning page mentions that the simple mic
that came with your computer or sound card should work
well, but that the bass response can be insufficient:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=base/help.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZMzfk7hOA

You'll notice he uses a cheapie dynamic mic in the video, although if you are mainly looking at the 6th partial, then
the fundamental response doesn't matter as much.

The video is a bit simplistic in the attempt to sell the software
to the unwary (although they cover it briefly in the website), in that they don't mention the art of "setting" the pins and strings for stability, and there is no mention that the iH measurements must be done when the strings are within +/-10 cents of the target pitches. His demo chords to show how out of tune the piano is, were quite out of tune, perhaps more than 10 cents off, which would mislead people into thinking you can take measurements straight from a piano that is off by maybe a full half step (100 cents, which is quite common), without the required initial over-pull pitch raise pass.

And it doesn't look like Dirk's program has any sort of
over-pull/pitch raising option? Does the free entropy tuning
software have that? With sample tuning curves so you can do
a first-pass, rough tuning?

Only after this first pass, when all the strings are within 10 cents,
should you record all 88 notes.



Last edited by Musicdude; 07/18/15 08:06 AM.

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Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2442531
07/18/15 04:45 PM
07/18/15 04:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
A
alfredo capurso Offline
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Dirk's piano tuning page mentions that the simple mic
that came with your computer or sound card should work
well, but that the bass response can be insufficient:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=base/help.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZMzfk7hOA

You'll notice he uses a cheapie dynamic mic in the video, although if you are mainly looking at the 6th partial, then
the fundamental response doesn't matter as much.

The video is a bit simplistic in the attempt to sell the software
to the unwary (although they cover it briefly in the website), in that they don't mention the art of "setting" the pins and strings for stability, and there is no mention that the iH measurements must be done when the strings are within +/-10 cents of the target pitches. His demo chords to show how out of tune the piano is, were quite out of tune, perhaps more than 10 cents off, which would mislead people into thinking you can take measurements straight from a piano that is off by maybe a full half step (100 cents, which is quite common), without the required initial over-pull pitch raise pass.

And it doesn't look like Dirk's program has any sort of
over-pull/pitch raising option? Does the free entropy tuning
software have that? With sample tuning curves so you can do
a first-pass, rough tuning?

Only after this first pass, when all the strings are within 10 cents,
should you record all 88 notes.



Hi Musicdude,

It would be nice for me to know where you come from, and whether you are a piano (aural?) tuner or what.

You wrote that you look forward to trying this EPT and I really hope you will succeed.

As for "..over-pull/pitch raising..", you may be looking in the wrong place; perhaps you want to actually test this software and share your findings?

Regards, a.c.
.


alfredo
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Grandpianoman] #2442547
07/18/15 06:01 PM
07/18/15 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,583
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Here are the rest of the recordings I made last night with my Laptop, Samson G Track USB mic and the Entropy Piano Tuner

Recorded in order, the first was the Hungarian Gypsy Dances...did not touch up unisons for the other 3.

Video and sound is with an Ipad 2 and a Tascam IM2 mic.

1. Hungarian Gypsy Dances https://youtu.be/PjbJGp5Qi9E

2. "Scherzo" in A Flat Borodin https://youtu.be/AFujEu9Il90

3. "Dizzy Fingers" https://youtu.be/8jZJux-__Aw

4. "Eligie" (Eligy) Rachnaminoff https://youtu.be/DChj5OCxT2M



GP, I think that a suitable aural check of the Entropy tuning system in this case could be chromatic progressive double octaves after ensuring that all unisons are clean.

Also, a plot of the theoretical tuning curves for both laptop vs Iphone and good vs bas mics would be interesting if that is possible.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Chris Leslie] #2442576
07/18/15 10:36 PM
07/18/15 10:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Portland, Oregon
Hi Chris,

Yes, good idea...Alfredo asked for something similar..will do this after I re-tune it again with Entropy. I went from EBVT III to Entropy...quite a difference in stretch..and it has drifted.....for example, C8 with EBVT was 76.5 Hz, with Entropy, 44.4. Interestingly, AO, both temperaments were at 26 Hz!! So Entropy must be listening like an aural tuner. The hammers are in need of voicing...it's been a few years since they were voiced.

The more I listen to this tuning, the more I feel this is one of the best ETD ET tunings I have heard on this piano. There is a richness in the bass section that is quite something. ....more to come....:)

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442593
07/19/15 01:09 AM
07/19/15 01:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,583
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
I would think that Entropy tuning stretch is a direct function of the Entropy system itself, and the EBVT stretch is a function of Bill's expansion methods rather than EBVT itself.

I also assume that your units for the C8 and A0 notes should be cents offset and not Hz.

For the tuning curves, you should only need measurements to be taken and what is generated, and not a real tuning.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/19/15 01:24 AM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Chris Leslie] #2442596
07/19/15 01:47 AM
07/19/15 01:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Portland, Oregon
Thanks for the clarification....Yes, cents offsets...:)

I do remember Bill saying he stretched it more on this latest EBVT then the one before it.

Will get those graphs etc when I re-tune with the Laptop and sample with the Ipad.

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Chris Leslie] #2442637
07/19/15 07:40 AM
07/19/15 07:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Here are the rest of the recordings I made last night with my Laptop, Samson G Track USB mic and the Entropy Piano Tuner

Recorded in order, the first was the Hungarian Gypsy Dances...did not touch up unisons for the other 3.

Video and sound is with an Ipad 2 and a Tascam IM2 mic.

1. Hungarian Gypsy Dances https://youtu.be/PjbJGp5Qi9E

2. "Scherzo" in A Flat Borodin https://youtu.be/AFujEu9Il90

3. "Dizzy Fingers" https://youtu.be/8jZJux-__Aw

4. "Eligie" (Eligy) Rachnaminoff https://youtu.be/DChj5OCxT2M



GP, I think that a suitable aural check of the Entropy tuning system in this case could be chromatic progressive double octaves after ensuring that all unisons are clean.

Also, a plot of the theoretical tuning curves for both laptop vs Iphone and good vs bas mics would be interesting if that is possible.



Hello,

Thank you, GPM, for posting those recordings. On my laptop the volume is very low, nevertheless I would say that the overall tuning sounds nice and well balanced. Nice trebles too, resonant and apparently not too stretched.

If we wanted to examine the tuning more accurately we do need to check how intervals relate to each other. For this reason double octaves only would not be enough (IMO). If you take the time to make a recording, please include other intervals:

From C3 to A4: thirds, fifths, octaves and 10ths.

From C3 to C7: 12ths, double octaves and 17ths.

Strange that we are getting so few comments, don't you think?

BTW, do you think we could check individual frequencies and see whether the EPT calculates octaves as 2:1 + iH, or 12ths as 3:1 + iH, or what? There might be a limit, due to resolution and decimals, I do not really know, though it would give me/us an idea...

To All, have a nice Sunday,

Alfredo
.
P.S.: If you still have the plot of that tuning, I mean the previous tuning and the EPT calculation, I would be happy to find it here.

Cheers


alfredo
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442647
07/19/15 07:59 AM
07/19/15 07:59 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,111
Scotland
Beemer Offline
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I have just finished my first Entropy tuning on my own Knight K10 upright (1987). I have been tuning it for 18 months using Tunelab.

The program, used on my Lenovo laptop running Windows 7 64bit, has allowed me to perform a better tuning than any of the ones I did using Tunelab.

The tuning part of the process was much more responsive to the lever and even where there were false partials the display helped me decide where to set the string. Tuning the lowest and the highest notes was much easier than with Tunelab.

Some observations:

I keep getting a message saying that there is an online update but I cannot get this to update.

The program crashed at around C6. On restarting it crashed immediately. The program log did not appear to indicate why it was crashing but I did note that many log lines said that it was stopping the examine process as it could not identify the note. I was using my Zoom Hn4 with 64bit driver as a USB sound input with 48kHz set on it and also 48kHz in Windows. I shut down the computer, restarted it and cleaned out all temp files then used defrag on the C: drive.

After this the program was steady and I was able to open the file and carry on from where I left off.

During tuning there were many times where I found that highlighted note was not the auto selected or manually selected one. In other words something was changing from the intended note even if the existing string frequency was within 10 cents of the recorded note. This was an annoying situation as the program shifted note could be several semitones away.

In summary this is a very impressive and simple to use program. Some reviewers have said that it takes a long time but I say that this can only be said of the initial 88 note recording process. After this the processes are very quick and the tuning process at least for me was quicker than using Tunelab. One point for readers is that if the input recording level is set to high then the process will continue to hear the input for much longer than is necessary. I reduced this level so that the maximum volume just went over level necessary to start the recording. This resulted in the note recording stopping much quicker and was most noticeable in the lowest notes whereas before the recorder was registering the note sounding long after I could not hear it!

I look forward to any further improvements,

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 07/19/15 08:01 AM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: alfredo capurso] #2442724
07/19/15 01:41 PM
07/19/15 01:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Portland, Oregon
You're welcome Alfredo...will do.....as I type this, I am listening to Andrew LLoyd Weber's "As If We Never Say Goodbye"...even though the tuning has drifted, it still sounds beautiful...as I mentioned before, one of the best ETD ET tunings I have had on this piano.

Not sure how to get the graphs...does anyone know how that is done?

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442730
07/19/15 02:07 PM
07/19/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Here is a pic of the graph taken when Entropy finished listening to all notes. This was done after I had used Entropy with the laptop.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/19/15 02:13 PM. Reason: added content
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Beemer] #2442751
07/19/15 03:10 PM
07/19/15 03:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 437
M
Musicdude Offline
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have just finished my first Entropy tuning on my own Knight K10 upright (1987). I have been tuning it for 18 months using Tunelab.

The program, used on my Lenovo laptop running Windows 7 64bit, has allowed me to perform a better tuning than any of the ones I did using Tunelab.

The tuning part of the process was much more responsive to the lever and even where there were false partials the display helped me decide where to set the string. Tuning the lowest and the highest notes was much easier than with Tunelab.

Some observations:

I keep getting a message saying that there is an online update but I cannot get this to update.

The program crashed at around C6. On restarting it crashed immediately. The program log did not appear to indicate why it was crashing but I did note that many log lines said that it was stopping the examine process as it could not identify the note. I was using my Zoom Hn4 with 64bit driver as a USB sound input with 48kHz set on it and also 48kHz in Windows. I shut down the computer, restarted it and cleaned out all temp files then used defrag on the C: drive.

After this the program was steady and I was able to open the file and carry on from where I left off.

During tuning there were many times where I found that highlighted note was not the auto selected or manually selected one. In other words something was changing from the intended note even if the existing string frequency was within 10 cents of the recorded note. This was an annoying situation as the program shifted note could be several semitones away.

In summary this is a very impressive and simple to use program. Some reviewers have said that it takes a long time but I say that this can only be said of the initial 88 note recording process. After this the processes are very quick and the tuning process at least for me was quicker than using Tunelab. One point for readers is that if the input recording level is set to high then the process will continue to hear the input for much longer than is necessary. I reduced this level so that the maximum volume just went over level necessary to start the recording. This resulted in the note recording stopping much quicker and was most noticeable in the lowest notes whereas before the recorder was registering the note sounding long after I could not hear it!

I look forward to any further improvements,

Ian


Thanks for the info, Ian.

I assume the entropy tuner does not have an overpull-pitch
raise mode? Does the instruction manual inform you that the notes have to be within 10 cents of the target value, before you measure iH for all 88 keys, for the best results?

I assume you might want to use Tunelab's overpull mode to perform a pitch raise pass first, based on one of the sample tuning files, and then use Entropy for the fine tuning?


Last edited by Musicdude; 07/19/15 03:11 PM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442752
07/19/15 03:11 PM
07/19/15 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,020
Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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Take a look at A#3 - the inharmonicity bar... See how it measured way lower than surrounding notes? If you can, go back and remeasure that note to see if the iH comes closer to the others, and then how much difference, if any, that makes to the calculation.

That's the kindof stuff we have to look out for when dealing with electronic tuning devices! As you refine the approach, you can also look for smaller jumps to verify that the machine really got a decent measurement.

Ron Koval

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: RonTuner] #2442756
07/19/15 03:26 PM
07/19/15 03:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Exactly Ron...when I saw that jump, I did go back and re-sample, it was then more in line with the rest. Also, the outboard mic with the laptop..if it showed any of those, I re sampled, and they were then more in line with the rest of the notes.

Interesting to hear your take on how it sounds on your piano/s. For me, it's a very well balanced ET...the bass in particular is very resonant, and when the piano plays as a whole, it all sounds "right" for lack of a better word. When I play C1 with C5,6,7, or any of the other notes in that regard for example...they sound like they "fit".


Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/19/15 05:26 PM.
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2442771
07/19/15 04:08 PM
07/19/15 04:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
download the last version, you will have better graph managment in a separate menu

That said there are no data on the screen, just curves

it is then not easy to see how much is the iH at A49, for instance




Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Grandpianoman] #2442773
07/19/15 04:10 PM
07/19/15 04:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Exactly Ron...when I saw that jump, I did go back and re-sample, it was then more in line with the rest. Also, the outboard mic with the laptop..if it showed any of those, I re sampled, and they were then more in line with the rest of the notes.

Interesting to hear your take on how it sounds on your piano/s. For me, it's a very well balanced ET...the bass in particular is very resonate, and when the piano plays as a whole, it all sounds "right" for lack of a better word. When I play C1 with C5,6,7, or any of the other notes in that regard for example...they sound like they "fit".



You hear a tuning where consonance is not a side effect, but the goal

That make a whole word of difference with some ways of doing

The advantage of tuning aurally is that we are sensitive to this and do not feel restricted if something sound pleasing we can use it

Last edited by Olek; 07/19/15 04:10 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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