Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
49 registered members (ando, CyberGene, andyhuang, bluejei, 8 invisible), 1,639 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 30 1 2 3 4 5 29 30
#2441642 - 07/15/15 03:44 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
I decided after doing a very quick cursory tuning with Entropy and my large laptop w/Samson USB G Track mic, to try my Ipad 2 with it's built in mic. It's a lot easier to use the Ipad than my huge 17 inch laptop, plus, the IOS was not available until just recently.

There were def some differences in the final calculation between the laptop and the Ipad.

One thing that has helped settle down the display up there, and seems to be giving me some very good intervals/octaves, particularly on the 6,7th, and C8... I strike the key, left string, and let it finish listening, as opposed to trying to read the display right away, which is pretty erratic up there....I then tune the string to that ending where Entropy stops listening, as I can get pretty much the same reading every strike.

I have never been able to tune by ear, 6,7,C8. Entropy is helping me to better hear those fast beats up there...I also think I know what to listen for now smile....... once the left string is tuned as explained above, I then mute the right string, get Entropy to get close to the ideal with the left/middle string,(Which is a BIG help) and it does that surprisingly well given it's 2 strings together, then un-mute the right string and tune the 2 by ear. Repeat that for the middle/right string. So far, the Ipad is making good ET sounds. smile Will make some recordings and try to do the intervals once I am finished.


(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#2441658 - 07/15/15 04:42 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
pinkfloydhomer Online content
500 Post Club Member
pinkfloydhomer  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
Denmark
One of the major drawbacks is that the calculation is not stable, even if I choose high accuracy.

I calculate, tune the bass, calculate again and now Entropy has changed its mind about how some bass notes should be tuned, so now they're out of tune according to Entropy.

This problem is made worse by the fact that Entropy cannot save the calculation, so I _have_ to recalculate each time I come back to the app after it has closed.

I like to tune several days in a row to achieve stability. I tune, wait a day or so, check which notes have moved the most and tune them again. This is easy with TuneLab because the tuning doesn't change after you've chosen parameters and recalculated the tuning curve. With Entropy, this is not possible, let alone coming back to the same piano 6 months later and repeat the same tuning, since the "same" tuning is not saved anywhere. It is recalculated, and unfortunately not in a deterministic or stable way.

I know that the algorithm uses monte carlo simulations and randomness, but it should still be possible to achieve stability given enough iterations. There should be a mode that doesn't stop calculating until stability is achieved, that is, until the found solution haven't changed for the last 100 iterations or similar.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
#2441661 - 07/15/15 04:48 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Canberra, ACT, Australia
I believe that the Entropy Piano Tuner has a feature where you can tune a note as a unison to an audible correct pitch generated by the software. I wonder how this compares with ease and accuracy compared with using the visual display if this feature is used for the whole piano.

Consider that the use of a display requires that the software needs to listen and process the audio and this alone is a source of error and computing power.

My thought is that this feature could be good for ETD tuners to learn to use their hearing entirely rather than looking up and down at visual indicators.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/15/15 04:49 PM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#2441666 - 07/15/15 05:13 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pinkfloydhomer]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,444
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
One of the major drawbacks is that the calculation is not stable, even if I choose high accuracy.

I know that the algorithm uses monte carlo simulations and randomness, but it should still be possible to achieve stability given enough iterations. There should be a mode that doesn't stop calculating until stability is achieved, that is, until the found solution haven't changed for the last 100 iterations or similar.

This is unfortunately almost unavoidable. The way the method works is that it takes random steps in a high dimensional space. If it was a surface it would look like a rugged terrain with many hills and valleys. The algorithm tries to climb the highest hill but all it can do is consider a random step, take it if it leads up, reject it and generate another random direction if it would take you down. If eventually no direction seems to go further up you've climbed a local peak. But which peak you have no control over, and in fact there may be a much higher peak somewhere else (the higher the lower the entropy and the better the tuning).

However it should be possible to reproduce the same result every time (provided you don't remeasure) if the random number generator seed could be fixed. I assume that is it set every time more or less randomly from the current time or something like that. If the seed is the same the random sequence will be exactly the same.

That being said I distinctly remember reading in the manual that after a tuning is computed the result can be saved and you don't have to recompute and you can repeat exactly the same tuning.

Kees

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2441671 - 07/15/15 05:45 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 71
machineintel Offline
Full Member
machineintel  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 71
USA
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
One of the major drawbacks is that the calculation is not stable, even if I choose high accuracy.

I know that the algorithm uses monte carlo simulations and randomness, but it should still be possible to achieve stability given enough iterations. There should be a mode that doesn't stop calculating until stability is achieved, that is, until the found solution haven't changed for the last 100 iterations or similar.

This is unfortunately almost unavoidable. The way the method works is that it takes random steps in a high dimensional space. If it was a surface it would look like a rugged terrain with many hills and valleys. The algorithm tries to climb the highest hill but all it can do is consider a random step, take it if it leads up, reject it and generate another random direction if it would take you down. If eventually no direction seems to go further up you've climbed a local peak. But which peak you have no control over, and in fact there may be a much higher peak somewhere else (the higher the lower the entropy and the better the tuning).


Their optimization method seems to be a pretty simplistic one (that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't the best one for the job though). I wonder if they've experimented with different types of algorithms.

Personally, I've always thought that particle swarm optimization was a pretty damn neat way of conquering a large solution space.


#2441726 - 07/16/15 12:42 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pinkfloydhomer]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Using the Ipad 2 Entropy, there is a "Save" button.

#2441731 - 07/16/15 01:30 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
pinkfloydhomer Online content
500 Post Club Member
pinkfloydhomer  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
Denmark
There is a save button, but at least on Android it only saves the recordings, not the solution.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
#2441733 - 07/16/15 01:35 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
pinkfloydhomer Online content
500 Post Club Member
pinkfloydhomer  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
Denmark
Kees, I know that local optimization != global optimization but there are typically a lot of smart heuristics you can use to find near optimal solutions in a high dimensional space.

In this particular case it is unfortunate that the found solution in the lower bass varies greatly, many cents, from recalculation to recalculation. Especially since I am not able to save the calculation on Android, a bug maybe.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
#2441846 - 07/16/15 11:52 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Musicdude Offline
Full Member
Musicdude  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
One of the major drawbacks is that the calculation is not stable, even if I choose high accuracy.

I know that the algorithm uses monte carlo simulations and randomness, but it should still be possible to achieve stability given enough iterations. There should be a mode that doesn't stop calculating until stability is achieved, that is, until the found solution haven't changed for the last 100 iterations or similar.

This is unfortunately almost unavoidable. The way the method works is that it takes random steps in a high dimensional space. If it was a surface it would look like a rugged terrain with many hills and valleys. The algorithm tries to climb the highest hill but all it can do is consider a random step, take it if it leads up, reject it and generate another random direction if it would take you down. If eventually no direction seems to go further up you've climbed a local peak. But which peak you have no control over, and in fact there may be a much higher peak somewhere else (the higher the lower the entropy and the better the tuning).

However it should be possible to reproduce the same result every time (provided you don't remeasure) if the random number generator seed could be fixed. I assume that is it set every time more or less randomly from the current time or something like that. If the seed is the same the random sequence will be exactly the same.

That being said I distinctly remember reading in the manual that after a tuning is computed the result can be saved and you don't have to recompute and you can repeat exactly the same tuning.

Kees



The hills and valleys terrain is otherwise known as an
optimization "landscape", although it's a bit simplistic
as it implies only two degrees of freedom. Gradient optimizers
typically only find local min and max, so it's better to apply a "random" optimizer first, which does a shotgun, scatter-shot approach to the landscape, thereby catching potential global min and max. Then a gradient optimizer can be used.

The initial seed might be the same, but if you start
at a different place at the output of a pseudo-random
number generator, then it can SEEM to be random each time.

It sounds like a software bug, if you cannot save the
calculated results. I hope the laptop/desktop version
does not have this problem.

Cannot wait to try this....


Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
#2441875 - 07/16/15 01:18 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,342
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,342
🎹
I was tempted to ask a question in the discussion above about psuedo-randomness, but I'll pose it now. I don't understand why randomness is injected into the process at all.

Shouldn't the software deterministically arrive at the same "best" solution each time? If it always starts at a concrete reference (e.g. A=440), and the "best" relative stretch is determined for the notes above and below, wouldn't it always be the same for a given piano?

I understand that different tuners, tuning aurally, might have their own preferences, and achieve different tunings, but I would think that a software approach should deterministically arrive at the same conclusion each time it assesses a given piano.

Some folks have enumerated the problems associated with different results, but what is the advantage of using a random seed, and having a different result each time?

Last edited by Retsacnal; 07/16/15 01:29 PM. Reason: typo

I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2441944 - 07/16/15 04:20 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
the computation is saved, as the samples and your tuning
(windows 8 1 on a tablet)

as I exported a tuning file from my Android phone it had the same data saved, I could see it in the windows version

but.... the computed tuning goes blank if you change the pitch, for instance


Last edited by Olek; 07/16/15 04:21 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2441952 - 07/16/15 04:46 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
pinkfloydhomer Online content
500 Post Club Member
pinkfloydhomer  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 618
Denmark
I didn't change pitch or anything. I just recorded, calculated, tuned and saved. Whenever I load the file again, it asks me to do the calculation again. But this is on Android, maybe that version have other bugs.

I did manage to save today _with_ the calculation, on Android. But I still experienced the above several times yesterday.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
#2441973 - 07/16/15 06:19 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pinkfloydhomer]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
I did notice that after clicking the save button on the Ipad, if I did not type in a name for the file, it did not save it.

Interesting....while continuing to tune with the Ipad 2, and comparing the tuning graph to the laptop/Samson G Track mic, there were some differences....so today, I put the laptop and the Ipad 2 on the piano, and re-calculated a new tuning for both, each hearing the same note. In comparing each note with the graph at the buttom, every note had different peaks and valleys between the laptop and Ipad2 when Entropy finished the analysis for each note....this must have some effect on the overall tuning? The end graph was also different in many places. Given that, I went back to the laptop with the outboard mic, considering that is a high-quality mic......will record intervals and some pieces and post them.

Another interesting point...after analysis of every note, it's notated in HZ ....3-4 notes had a difference of 0,1 ...all the other notes were exactly the same for both laptop/Ipad2.

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/16/15 06:23 PM. Reason: content
#2441976 - 07/16/15 06:44 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Canberra, ACT, Australia
GP, can you evaluate the differences with aural checks?


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#2441977 - 07/16/15 06:52 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Chris...did not record the Ipad tuning, .... will def record this laptop tuiing, and if I have time, re-tune with the Ipad....I did notice that the Ipad bass section was not quite as sonoruus as the laptop tuning.

#2441986 - 07/16/15 07:33 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: RonTuner]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,481
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member
daniokeeper  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,481
PA
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Finally downloaded on an older netbook. It's really slow to calculate! Sampling went all right. Didn't try to tune yet, just getting more comfortable with the software. Is there a way to see the numerical value for the calculated offset along with the targeted partial number?

As with all tuning software, the tough test for me is to use it to tune a smaller piano to see how it deals with octaves across the break and into the bass... Should be interesting!

Ron Koval


So quality of equipment does matter when using Entropy.

Both RK and GPM seem to get inferior tunings when using lower grade equipment. When using the other tuning software available, the quality of the microphone doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

Even though it's great to have FOSS tuning software, especially when it's available for various OSes including Linux, there is the concern that if the customer sees the tuner using software that they themselves can easily afford... or even download for free... they might not respect the tuner.

So now, if questioned or derided by the customer, the tuner can point to the expense involved in acquiring the equipment.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
#2442060 - 07/17/15 02:14 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Here is my first try at the Entropy Tuner. It's late here, but I have a few more I recorded...will post them tomorrow. (the dog makes his presence known in this one..lol)

Used the Laptop and the Samson G Track outboard usb mic. There were differences between the Ipad 2 and the laptop, so it will be interesting to re-tune with the Ipad and see what the differences are sound wise.

This is an Ampico roll that was originally recorded in June 1924. It was scanned and made into a midi file, which is then played here on the Live Performance LX system. 1925 7ft M&H RBB

"Hungarian Gypsy Dances" by Carl Tausig Played by Josef Lhevinne

https://vimeo.com/133730306



Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/17/15 02:57 AM. Reason: content
#2442075 - 07/17/15 04:39 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Sound a little as Chas type tuning, may be more stretched,
Prevalence of very pure sounding minor tonalities.

But the major chords are congruent, too.

That is interesting to realise how each individual note sound enhanced even in low mediums. The result of consonances coming from other tones in my opinion.

That is why tuning focusing enough on slow beating intervals goes that direction.

Last edited by Olek; 07/17/15 04:48 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2442159 - 07/17/15 11:37 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Musicdude Offline
Full Member
Musicdude  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
#2442183 - 07/17/15 12:44 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 390
pyropaul Offline
Full Member
pyropaul  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 390
Montreal
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

#2442221 - 07/17/15 02:30 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pyropaul]  
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,335
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,335
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout

#2442226 - 07/17/15 02:53 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Here are the rest of the recordings I made last night with my Laptop, Samson G Track USB mic and the Entropy Piano Tuner

Recorded in order, the first was the Hungarian Gypsy Dances...did not touch up unisons for the other 3.

Video and sound is with an Ipad 2 and a Tascam IM2 mic.

1. Hungarian Gypsy Dances https://youtu.be/PjbJGp5Qi9E

2. "Scherzo" in A Flat Borodin https://youtu.be/AFujEu9Il90

3. "Dizzy Fingers" https://youtu.be/8jZJux-__Aw

4. "Eligie" (Eligy) Rachnaminoff https://youtu.be/DChj5OCxT2M


#2442231 - 07/17/15 03:08 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: pyropaul]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.


oh yes seem to me amplitude is recorded


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2442281 - 07/17/15 07:30 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: prout]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Musicdude Offline
Full Member
Musicdude  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout


Ok, so the Entropy tuner calculates based on partial
amplitudes, with some sort of Fletcher–Munson curve
applied to it.

But as you mention, the potential for significantly divergent
solutions for the same piano exists depending on where
you place the microphone.


Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
#2442299 - 07/17/15 08:29 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude]  
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,335
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,335
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Why would the quality of the mic matter with Entropy tuner,
and not with other tuning software?

It was concluded in an older thread that a flat frequency
response, which is usually what you want when recording music,
is not as important with tuning software, because you are
mainly looking at the FFT frequencies of the partials (harmonics),
and NOT the amplitudes as much.

This is why most tuning software works just fine with the built-in
mics on most laptops and smart phones.


I would imagine the power of the partials is taken into account in finding the lowest entropy - if you can't hear them beating because they're weak, then they matter less, no? So it is probably important to have a flat microphone response - I believe the software already applies a weighting function similar to the well known "loudness" curve that mimics the human hearing response.

Paul.

You are correct. A flat response microphone is essential for an accurate recording of the partial amplitudes. Obviously the placement of the microphone is also critical due to proximity effects, standing waves, acoustic blocking, and the like. The best placement is likely to be where the pianist's ears are located, if the pianist wants to hear the resulting temperament. A weighting function, mimicking the nominal human audio frequency response, is applied to the recorded waveforms.

prout


Ok, so the Entropy tuner calculates based on partial
amplitudes, with some sort of Fletcher–Munson curve
applied to it.

But as you mention, the potential for significantly divergent
solutions for the same piano exists depending on where
you place the microphone.


Yes, though the results are likely to be within a few cents of each other, on a per-note basis. The use of all 88 notes simultaneously in the calculation and a bias toward equally dividing all 88 notes forces the result toward a narrow range of variation in spite of partial amplitude differences. The stretch will change slightly for a bias of strong 6:3 partials over 4:2 for example, but the 7th and 9th partials, to name a few, are often very strong in the bass, and must have equal weight in the calculation along with a weak 8th partial.

prout

#2442404 - 07/18/15 07:57 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Musicdude Offline
Full Member
Musicdude  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 415
Dirk's piano tuning page mentions that the simple mic
that came with your computer or sound card should work
well, but that the bass response can be insufficient:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=base/help.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZMzfk7hOA

You'll notice he uses a cheapie dynamic mic in the video, although if you are mainly looking at the 6th partial, then
the fundamental response doesn't matter as much.

The video is a bit simplistic in the attempt to sell the software
to the unwary (although they cover it briefly in the website), in that they don't mention the art of "setting" the pins and strings for stability, and there is no mention that the iH measurements must be done when the strings are within +/-10 cents of the target pitches. His demo chords to show how out of tune the piano is, were quite out of tune, perhaps more than 10 cents off, which would mislead people into thinking you can take measurements straight from a piano that is off by maybe a full half step (100 cents, which is quite common), without the required initial over-pull pitch raise pass.

And it doesn't look like Dirk's program has any sort of
over-pull/pitch raising option? Does the free entropy tuning
software have that? With sample tuning curves so you can do
a first-pass, rough tuning?

Only after this first pass, when all the strings are within 10 cents,
should you record all 88 notes.



Last edited by Musicdude; 07/18/15 08:06 AM.

Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
#2442531 - 07/18/15 04:45 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,403
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member
alfredo capurso  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,403
Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Dirk's piano tuning page mentions that the simple mic
that came with your computer or sound card should work
well, but that the bass response can be insufficient:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=base/help.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZMzfk7hOA

You'll notice he uses a cheapie dynamic mic in the video, although if you are mainly looking at the 6th partial, then
the fundamental response doesn't matter as much.

The video is a bit simplistic in the attempt to sell the software
to the unwary (although they cover it briefly in the website), in that they don't mention the art of "setting" the pins and strings for stability, and there is no mention that the iH measurements must be done when the strings are within +/-10 cents of the target pitches. His demo chords to show how out of tune the piano is, were quite out of tune, perhaps more than 10 cents off, which would mislead people into thinking you can take measurements straight from a piano that is off by maybe a full half step (100 cents, which is quite common), without the required initial over-pull pitch raise pass.

And it doesn't look like Dirk's program has any sort of
over-pull/pitch raising option? Does the free entropy tuning
software have that? With sample tuning curves so you can do
a first-pass, rough tuning?

Only after this first pass, when all the strings are within 10 cents,
should you record all 88 notes.



Hi Musicdude,

It would be nice for me to know where you come from, and whether you are a piano (aural?) tuner or what.

You wrote that you look forward to trying this EPT and I really hope you will succeed.

As for "..over-pull/pitch raising..", you may be looking in the wrong place; perhaps you want to actually test this software and share your findings?

Regards, a.c.
.


alfredo
#2442547 - 07/18/15 06:01 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Here are the rest of the recordings I made last night with my Laptop, Samson G Track USB mic and the Entropy Piano Tuner

Recorded in order, the first was the Hungarian Gypsy Dances...did not touch up unisons for the other 3.

Video and sound is with an Ipad 2 and a Tascam IM2 mic.

1. Hungarian Gypsy Dances https://youtu.be/PjbJGp5Qi9E

2. "Scherzo" in A Flat Borodin https://youtu.be/AFujEu9Il90

3. "Dizzy Fingers" https://youtu.be/8jZJux-__Aw

4. "Eligie" (Eligy) Rachnaminoff https://youtu.be/DChj5OCxT2M



GP, I think that a suitable aural check of the Entropy tuning system in this case could be chromatic progressive double octaves after ensuring that all unisons are clean.

Also, a plot of the theoretical tuning curves for both laptop vs Iphone and good vs bas mics would be interesting if that is possible.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#2442576 - 07/18/15 10:36 PM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Chris Leslie]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Hi Chris,

Yes, good idea...Alfredo asked for something similar..will do this after I re-tune it again with Entropy. I went from EBVT III to Entropy...quite a difference in stretch..and it has drifted.....for example, C8 with EBVT was 76.5 Hz, with Entropy, 44.4. Interestingly, AO, both temperaments were at 26 Hz!! So Entropy must be listening like an aural tuner. The hammers are in need of voicing...it's been a few years since they were voiced.

The more I listen to this tuning, the more I feel this is one of the best ETD ET tunings I have heard on this piano. There is a richness in the bass section that is quite something. ....more to come....:)

#2442593 - 07/19/15 01:09 AM Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,487
Canberra, ACT, Australia
I would think that Entropy tuning stretch is a direct function of the Entropy system itself, and the EBVT stretch is a function of Bill's expansion methods rather than EBVT itself.

I also assume that your units for the C8 and A0 notes should be cents offset and not Hz.

For the tuning curves, you should only need measurements to be taken and what is generated, and not a real tuning.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/19/15 01:24 AM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Page 3 of 30 1 2 3 4 5 29 30

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
by Bagong. 11/23/17 02:37 AM
Dead Steinway Octaves
by musicpassion. 11/22/17 09:47 PM
Windows based MIDI Sound Modules ?
by Piano World. 11/22/17 08:23 PM
finger tapping technique
by Osho. 11/22/17 03:28 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,897
Posts2,673,690
Members89,176
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0