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Entropy Piano Tuner #2435332
06/25/15 02:46 AM
06/25/15 02:46 AM
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daniokeeper Offline OP
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There is a free Google Play app called "Entropy Piano Tuner."

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.entropytuner.app

It appears to be FOSS.. The description makes it seem similar to Dirk's Piano Tuning software.

From the web-site:
Quote
The tuning is carried out in three steps:
- Record successively all keys of your piano.
- Compute the optimal tuning automatically.
- Use the integrated electronic tuner to tune your piano.


I downloaded it to my smart phone. But, I haven't had time to play with it yet.

Just out of curiosity, has any here tried this yet?


Last edited by daniokeeper; 06/25/15 02:46 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
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www.morethanpianos.com
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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435335
06/25/15 02:58 AM
06/25/15 02:58 AM
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daniokeeper Offline OP
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Whoa! I just found there's a GNU/Linux version on the University of Würzburg web-site:
http://www.entropy-tuner.org/

Yes, the software is GPL'ed.

It's available for

iPad

Android

Windows

Mac OS-X

Linux

and the source is there, too.

Last edited by daniokeeper; 06/25/15 02:59 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435355
06/25/15 04:38 AM
06/25/15 04:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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It takes too long to measure each string!


Rafael Melo
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435368
06/25/15 05:57 AM
06/25/15 05:57 AM
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Lemon Offline
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About this Entropy Piano Tuner software (EPT), see also the thread Octaves are UNISONS, i.e. the post of Withindale, June 13, 2015, and further comments.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Gadzar] #2435435
06/25/15 12:16 PM
06/25/15 12:16 PM
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Musicdude Offline
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
It takes too long to measure each string!


That's very true, and is why the other software
packages like Veritune, Cybertuner, or Tunelab would
be faster when tuning out in the field.

However, for your home piano, or for a piano which you
anticipate you will tune more than once, it could very
well be worth the extra time to measure all the notes,
because you only have to do it once. And then, if the
discussion on the previous thread is correct, you will
have a tuning that is closer to an actual good aural
tuning, if we assume the entropy algorithms do indeed
mimic what the human ear does.

I'm going to try this software soon.....


Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435490
06/25/15 03:37 PM
06/25/15 03:37 PM
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Europe
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Toni Goldener Offline
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if you have three hours time to tune a piano, maybe....

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435495
06/25/15 03:53 PM
06/25/15 03:53 PM
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Posts: 158
AZ
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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2435609
06/25/15 09:01 PM
06/25/15 09:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
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Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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What I would love to know is how this entropy tuner does with a real piano...As soon as I can, I will tune my 7ft M&H BB with it, and post some piano pieces. smile

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2436283
06/28/15 09:35 AM
06/28/15 09:35 AM
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Its good news available in all major platforms. Hope it can tune historical temperament.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2436310
06/28/15 11:19 AM
06/28/15 11:19 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 113
Tennessee, USA
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JMichaelWilson Offline
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I downloaded it and tuned a couple of grands (1 small, 1 medium length) with it! Other than the extra time to measure each string, I was pleasantly surprised at the end result!


Tuner/Technician, Associate Member PTG, Certified Installer Piano Life Saver Systems
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2436324
06/28/15 11:47 AM
06/28/15 11:47 AM
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Tried it last night. I really like the interface (graphs and recording quality meters for each key, etc.). That would be great if it could also offer custom temperament values and maybe more choices for intervals/partial ratios.

Very well done, congratulations to their team!

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2436420
06/28/15 03:41 PM
06/28/15 03:41 PM
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The math underlying the entropy-based tuner assumes that every interval on the piano (all possible combinations of 88 notes, including 88 notes played simultaneously) is equally important, an assumption that only occurs in ET.

The authors attempted to change the weighting by working in subsets of octaves, fifths, and fourths.

"Instead of adding up the spectra of all piano keys,
we tried to work with subsets of octaves, fifths
and fourths, imitating the practice of aural tuners.
This destabilizes the method, probably driving
the pitches out of equal-tempered into just
intonation. Apparently the summation over all
keys allows the system as a whole to stay in equal
temperament."

A different mathematical approach would have to be developed to create an entropy-based UT tuner.

prout


Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439554
07/08/15 12:10 AM
07/08/15 12:10 AM
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machineintel Offline
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Very cool.

I've been using an older free version of tunelab to try to tune a vertical of mine which has a very short scale, and so it's very difficult to get satisfactory results in the tenor and bass octaves.

This, on the other hand, sounds pretty stellar, at least in concept. I'm doing some action work on said piano at the moment, but I'm very eager to give the program a shot as soon as that work is completed.

Also, FOSS?? No more pauses every 10th note for the tunelab demo, "PLEASE BUY OUR SOFTWARE NOW" timer, even though you're completely broke?? Yes please.

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439571
07/08/15 02:34 AM
07/08/15 02:34 AM
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daniokeeper Offline OP
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I still haven't had a chance to put the Entropy Tuner through all its paces.

There are two things I did notice, though...

There's no way to calibrate the software. However, there is a workaround.

When you set the pitch, you can set it to the calibration for any other software you are running.

For instance, I have the Verituner software installed on m y notebook. The offset is -0.13. I checked and the equivalent frequency for -0.13 and it came out to A=439.9, I "think". (I'm not sure if that's exactly what it worked out to; the netbook is out in the car right now and I'm too lazy to walk out and get it.)
The point is, you can set the frequency to compensate for the soundcard.

2)The other thing that seems to be missing are the overpull targets. For that, it will probably be necessary to guesstimate the overpull.

One more thing...
Since this software requires a higher quality mike that what's already built into most PCs, maybe it would be possible to do quality unison tuning one string at a time matched to the display???

Last edited by daniokeeper; 07/08/15 02:39 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439651
07/08/15 10:59 AM
07/08/15 10:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
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Portland, Oregon
Grandpianoman Offline
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Before I started to sample the notes of my M&H BB yesterday, I noticed there was an upgrade for Entropy...I clicked on it, but it failed to install, subsequently, Entropy was not loading. The fix is that you must un-install it first, then do the upgrade.

I will have more time next week to do a full tuning of the M&H and will post a few recordings.

Interesting, I thought the upgrade was to version 1.1.4, but checking now. it's still ver 1.1.0.

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/08/15 11:40 AM. Reason: added content
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439810
07/08/15 07:56 PM
07/08/15 07:56 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Hi GPM,

For one reason I believe that this software might prove to be of value, and that is because "lower entropy" can be understood as "higher order".

When ever you are ready to record your tunings, may I dare to ask you something? May I suggest a procedure?

First, use your usual/favorite ETD and tune your M&H; make a record, so that aural tuners (like me) can hear the result: from C3 to A4, octaves, thirds, fourths, fifths, 10ths and 12ths; from A4 to C7, octaves, fifths, 10ths and 12ths. Play those chords chromatically with the same energy, record 3-4 seconds each.

Then tune your M&H with Entropy and make the same recording as above.

Oh,... It is only a wish :-)

My best regards,

Alfredo
.



alfredo
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439814
07/08/15 08:10 PM
07/08/15 08:10 PM
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Olek Offline
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hello all; the last version have an improved graph display, and ability to see all the data in excel

ih, recorded pitches, computed pitches, then re recorded pitches when you have tuned the piano, with diff in cts

Dear Alfredo, as the algorithm compute every time a slightly different tuning (for an unexpected reason)

I have yet asked them if a possibility to choose the "fundamental tuning " used to drive the computation into a direction, or to put limits, could be modified from 6 3 tuning to a 2 1 or 3 1 or whatever scheme would allow different final computation;

hoping this can be investigated

at that point there is a lot of strenght given to ih in the tuning , that sound nice, but I am unsure that a strong , consistent harmonic scheme is part of the final tuning ; probably no

best regards

ps basses and treble sound very clean

Last edited by Olek; 07/08/15 08:12 PM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: alfredo capurso] #2439950
07/09/15 10:17 AM
07/09/15 10:17 AM
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Hello Alfredo,

Will try to accommodate your request...certainly can do that after it's tuned with Entropy, but not sure I will have time to re-tune the EBVT III that is on there now.

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: Olek] #2439951
07/09/15 10:19 AM
07/09/15 10:19 AM
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Hello Isaac,

What do you mean by "but I am unsure that a strong , consistent harmonic scheme is part of the final tuning ; probably no" ?

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2439967
07/09/15 11:01 AM
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That mean I am not sure the final pitches correspond to a same "consonant node" as when tuning with a balance of partial matches, as with Chas, or a direct match as pure twelve, 5ths or a 6:3 4:2 balance.

I think that each note is sounding clear and pure, normally all chords and intervals should also have an identical balance of sounds, but I am not sure it really happens, may be because of the iH inconsistencies, or may be only because iH progression is often strong.

I have no idea how much the algorithm can be "driven", borned, kept in a range of possibles.
The idea would be to understand how much the first theoretical computation is influencing the result, and if it is significant, allow different models choices at that stage.

The view of the data in Excel is cool and allow experiences




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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440028
07/09/15 02:42 PM
07/09/15 02:42 PM
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Olek Offline
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That mean I am not sure the final pitches correspond to a same "consonant node" as when tuning with a balance of partial matches, as with Chas, or a direct match as pure twelve, 5ths or a 6:3 4:2 balance.

I think that each note is sounding clear and pure, normally all chords and intervals should also have an identical balance of sounds, but I am not sure it really happens, may be because of the iH inconsistencies, or may be only because iH progression is often strong.

I have no idea how much the algorithm can be "driven", borned, kept in a range of possibles.
The idea would be to understand how much the first theoretical computation is influencing the result, and if it is significant, allow different models choices at that stage.

The view of the data in Excel is cool and should allow experiences




Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440036
07/09/15 03:11 PM
07/09/15 03:11 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Hi GPM,

Thank you for your kind reply. If you cannot do a first "reference" tuning it does not matter that much. Actually, even a seasoned WT is fine, as long as you record those intervals first. In that way, by comparing the two, we can evaluate aurally what the Entropy software has done in terms of corrections.

Hi Isaac,

Thank you for your feedback. Prout did three calculations and said the differences were not that much.

I too wonder what the constraints are at the moment, and whether they can be changed. I also wonder whether the calculations are different depending on how the system "hears" partials sounds and the whole spectrum, which in turn might be related to the way the notes are played and recorded.

I am sure we will get to know more :-)

Best regards,

Alfredo
.


alfredo
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440070
07/09/15 05:54 PM
07/09/15 05:54 PM
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Olek Offline
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Hi Afredo

I hope that methods to manage the algorithm, or other algorithms will be developed.

May be just allowing some "weighting" of different scale sections may reduce the compromising, for instance some portions are more forgiving , high iH in low basses for instance is it necessary that should influence the whole tuning ?

I find the treble very similar to how I tune , then when looking at the data I find much stretch in octaves since 5th as it happens with pure 5th tunings

I had not many occasions or time to spend analyzing what happen and what the results are. A full day at last should be necessary, and some organisation to make precise tests;

Now that the data is made available analysis can be done

Too much things to do at that moment, may be after august I will be quieter.

The sampling quality is certainly a question, but I think they did work on that, they seem to master the process anyway

ALl the best

Last edited by Olek; 07/09/15 05:54 PM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440155
07/10/15 03:28 AM
07/10/15 03:28 AM
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As I understand it -- having read the paper and some of the source code but not run the application -- this "maximisation of consonance" algorithm does not have a concept of octave sizes or preferences for certain harmonic configurations.

There may be ways to modify the algorithm by adding an extra weighting function for certain intervals. This would basically mean moving things towards just intonation (with stretch) for those select intervals. Carefully weighted, it might give the tuning a bit of flavour or tonal direction -- in how far and for what kind of music that is a welcome result remains to be seen, or rather heard.

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: timq] #2440177
07/10/15 07:28 AM
07/10/15 07:28 AM
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Musicdude Offline
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Originally Posted by timq
As I understand it -- having read the paper and some of the source code but not run the application -- this "maximisation of consonance" algorithm does not have a concept of octave sizes or preferences for certain harmonic configurations.

There may be ways to modify the algorithm by adding an extra weighting function for certain intervals. This would basically mean moving things towards just intonation (with stretch) for those select intervals. Carefully weighted, it might give the tuning a bit of flavour or tonal direction -- in how far and for what kind of music that is a welcome result remains to be seen, or rather heard.


The question in a previous thread about Dirk's
software, was the fact that the user cannot really
tweak the tuning like you can in Tunelab, by
choosing something other than the standard 6:3 in the bass, and 4:2 in the treble.

Perhaps you cannot chose which intervals you are matching
in an entropy tuner such as Dirk's program, because each
note's iH is measured, so the resulting tuning curve doesn't smoothly follow a 6:3, 4:2 Tunelab curve that was based on
just "C" and "F" notes of each octave?

What intervals do these entropy algorithms most closely
follow, on an "average" piano?

Last edited by Musicdude; 07/10/15 07:29 AM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440193
07/10/15 08:30 AM
07/10/15 08:30 AM
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Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Repeat of earlier post:

The math underlying the entropy-based tuner assumes that every interval on the piano (all possible combinations of 88 notes, including 88 notes played simultaneously) is equally important, an assumption that only occurs in ET.

The authors attempted to change the weighting by working in subsets of octaves, fifths, and fourths.

"Instead of adding up the spectra of all piano keys,
we tried to work with subsets of octaves, fifths
and fourths, imitating the practice of aural tuners.
This destabilizes the method, probably driving
the pitches out of equal-tempered into just
intonation. Apparently the summation over all
keys allows the system as a whole to stay in equal
temperament."

A different mathematical approach would have to be developed to create an entropy-based UT tuner.

The point is that, except for the 6:3/4:2 stretched tuning curve mentioned in the manual, NO INTERVAL IS GIVEN PREFERENCE OVER ANY OTHER INTERVAL. The tuner attempts to make the tritone as sonorous as the fifth. It tries to make a semitone as beat free as an octave.

Prout

Edit: corrected memory error.

Last edited by prout; 07/10/15 08:54 AM.
Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440194
07/10/15 08:32 AM
07/10/15 08:32 AM
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As I understand it, the entropy tuner doesn't attach a particular weight to any interval at all: at every step of the process, a note chosen at random is detuned by a small amount and then the consonance of all 88 together is evaluated.

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440196
07/10/15 08:34 AM
07/10/15 08:34 AM
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Olek Offline
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Ah there is a temperament octave? I thought that the first computation concerns all possible tones? Certainly having similar importance to all intervals is a sort of ET.

Last edited by Olek; 07/10/15 08:35 AM.

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Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440199
07/10/15 08:46 AM
07/10/15 08:46 AM
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Hi Isaac, I misread the manual. Here is the actual statement rom the manual:

"In  a  second  step  the  EPT  computes  a  tuning  curve  that  will  be  used  as  an  initial configuration  for  the  tuning  procedure.  This  initial  curve  is  computed  deterministically by direct comparison of partials, establishing a compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 tuning." 
Prout

Re: Entropy Piano Tuner [Re: daniokeeper] #2440270
07/10/15 02:03 PM
07/10/15 02:03 PM
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If a tuning can be exported to an excel file, it should be able to be imported to Tunelab? Then you could use the data to pitch adjust and set any temperament...

Ron Koval

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