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Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
#2439398 07/07/15 11:58 AM
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Hi all , I started taking lessons with a new teacher in hopes of learning to play Jazz, Jazz songs, and ability to inprov., etc. He use's The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. It's been a couple months and we have just been talking and going through the book doing the small examples. I have learned things in theory didn't know, but I haven't gotten any better at playing.
I'm thinking and looking by myself for something to study with to compliment my lessons.

I can read music pretty well, and fairly good at moving around keyboard.

Is this the way most teachers teach Jazz? or is my teacher just omitting learning tools(real books, structured learning book, teacher written stuff, etc.) in my lessons?
Should I find another teacher if this is all that's being taught?

Thanks for any advise as all would be appreciated.


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Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2439412 07/07/15 01:06 PM
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Gumbysgroove, what you practically playing on piano?

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Nahum #2439418 07/07/15 01:30 PM
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"Gumbysgroove, what you practically playing on piano?"

Hi Nahum, I'm not sure what your asking?

If your asking what do I play now on piano, I feel comfortable
playing songs in the early intermediate skill level category.

That's why I'm taking lessons to improve , but going in the Jazz direction. If I'm not good enough to try going the Jazz route, that's one thought that came to mind.

I'm really questioning my teacher's method.

Last edited by Gumbysgroove; 07/07/15 02:09 PM.
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2439496 07/07/15 06:35 PM
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If you enjoy working with your teacher, I would suggest that you let him know that you are getting a little impatient to start "playing" something. See how that goes.

He may shift gears and begin helping you "play" something.

Or ...

He may give you a "good" reason for his method. If it makes sense to you, keep at it.

If not, then it is probably time to move on.

Good Luck


P.S. Learning to play jazz piano is a very long process and to be good, it requires a good understanding of the theory behind things. You do not wish to just have him teach you how to "play" something and then something else and then something else etc ... That will get old and lose significance over time.

Talk with him about this and you may find him to be doing exactly the right thing.


Last edited by dmd; 07/07/15 06:39 PM.

Don

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Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2439617 07/08/15 07:45 AM
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Gumby: I don't think that there is a way "most people" teach jazz. Unlike classical it seems to be very individual to the teacher.

Here's what my teacher did. We used the Levine book to a degree and did some drills to learn voicings for ii-V-Is in all 12 keys. But, we also started to apply everything we learned to tunes from the beginning. Learning to play from a lead sheet is an important skill in jazz. So we proceeded on both tracks. We never used a method book.

I would suggest you tell your teacher you'd like to start working on some tunes. My teacher used the Jazz Piano Book more as a reference guide; it is not a text or method book to learn to play jazz, in my opinion. To just play through the short examples in the text, without applying them to tunes, seems a bit questionable. Indeed, at the end of each chapter, Levine has tunes he recommends playing with the principles discussed in the chapter. Your teacher may have a reason for not giving you tunes to apply what you've learned. But it is also possible that your teacher has not taught many jazz students and is just figuring out how to go about this.

Good luck.

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2439654 07/08/15 10:09 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback. JJO - your teachers method is exactly what I just confronted my teacher with, saying in my student
opinion if I had a song or longer exercise containing what was explained in the book it would be very helpful, not just playing the 2 or 3 measure book example.

Teacher's response was friendly, but somewhat taken back. saying sure you want to play I understand so lets us try some songs. Then went on to mention his study of music theory and he has read and worked through Mark Levine's Jazz book and he understands it very well.

Let me say he couldn't be a nicer guy, and he's 10 minutes from my house - I really thought I made a terrific find.

There's always a But I guess. Your last comment (But it is also possible that your teacher has not taught many jazz students and is just figuring out how to go about this) my gut feeling - sounds the most likely.

I'm paid through the end of the month so we'll see if we go to the book and make an effort for pertinent out of book exercise's.

Anybody wouldn't know a local morris county, NJ teacher?

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2439774 07/08/15 04:26 PM
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Well, I would want to hear and watch him play.

If what I see is what I want to do, then I would tend to stick around.

I would be real reluctant to discard someone who has worked through Levine's book, 10 minutes away, real nice guy, and he plays the way I would like to. Those guys are hard to find.

I would not get too hung up on playing songs. I have been learning songs for years and I am here to tell you, that gets old and unsatisfying. You want to sit at the piano and play whatever ... that may be where he is trying to take you.





Last edited by dmd; 07/08/15 04:29 PM.

Don

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Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
jjo #2439986 07/09/15 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jjo

Here's what my teacher did. We used the Levine book to a degree and did some drills to learn voicings for ii-V-Is in all 12 keys. But, we also started to apply everything we learned to tunes from the beginning. Learning to play from a lead sheet is an important skill in jazz. So we proceeded on both tracks.
Good luck.


Yes, this is standard approach with different variations.By the way, Gumbysgroove - you have recorded your playing at the first lesson, and now, in order to compare progress?

Last edited by Nahum; 07/09/15 11:15 AM.
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
dmd #2439997 07/09/15 12:05 PM
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Thanks again for very meaningful advice. // I spoke to the local University and their music dept was kind enough to give me the names of two local piano teachers that give occasional demonstrations and advanced teaching classes.

So no shortage of local talent.

Maybe the best approach is just ask my teacher - In your judgment how many more months before we are able to expand teaching outside the book ?

I will either get a true piano teacher answer (stay) or what's wrong with the book answer (out the door)


Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2440001 07/09/15 12:26 PM
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Piano teachers are like anything else we "purchase". Until we have something to compare them to, we become dissatisfied with any perceived imperfection.

Then, later, when we have experienced 3 or 4 of them, we know what "good" is. Sometmes, we find that our first choice was the best.

Alas ... it is the nature of things.

Good Luck


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2444616 07/26/15 10:56 AM
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Gumbysgroove, I would not be feeling inspired if my lesson just consisted of the short examples from Levine's book. Much as his book is highly rated, it just does not resonate with me in a great way, mainly because it offers only short exercises.

I am an intermediate player with a jazz background mostly in bass (university music degree, some teaching background for jazz bass students), and studied with some awesome Los Angeles jazz bazz players) and am learning jazz piano. They all incorporated theory, technique, exercises, and learning repertoire. A beginner could start with C-Jam Blues and make it a fun learning experience.

I have been very inspired by Exploring Jazz Piano Book 1 with CD by Tim Richards which gets you playing real tunes rather quickly and has many exercises and detailed explanations of theory as well. You should be learning tunes, basic improv, exercises, including mastery of ii-v7-I, and some repertoire, possibly starting with some easy blues. I plan to study with a teacher after I master more of the basics.

I also have been exploring the various online teaching systems and maybe you should too, as they all have free trial periods, just google them. Another big component of playing jazz is listening to the masters, attending live music events, and playing jazz with others as soon as your can. Right now I jam weekly with a sax/flute player with Real Book tunes, using accompaniment from iRealB and we are slowly, but surely building repertoire.

Yesterday I saw a link on Facebook for jazzpianoschool.com and I am going to start the free 7-day trial today. It looks very comprehensive, offers step-by-step learning approaches in four areas: improv, theory, technique, and repertoire. There is also jazzpianoonline.com and freejazzlessons.com. There is more, but I have joined these for varying lengths of time.

Also, is it your goal to play jazz solo or would you like the challenge of playing jazz in a small group? If you want to play with others, then there is more a need to learn rootless voicings. jazzpianoonline has a great lesson on that to get you started Playing with Real Book tunes with others is one of my greatest joys in life, and spent many years as a bass player doing just this with gigs and jams. The Real Book standards never get old and are a constant inspiration. I am also exploring jazzed up versions of Beatles and other rock tunes. Many interesting versions on youtube.

Most of all, you should feel inspired after a lesson or a playing session.


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Jazz, blues, Latin, and a touch of classical and new age.
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2444720 07/26/15 07:14 PM
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I just discovered a site called ... pianogroove.com

They are not quite ready to go yet but it looks like it could be very good.

If you look up PIANOGROOVE on youtube you will see what I mean.


Last edited by dmd; 07/26/15 07:15 PM.

Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2444726 07/26/15 07:49 PM
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I found pianogroove youtube videos the other day and they look really good. It might be a while before they have enough content for a paid internet service but if it's free on youtube there's nothing to lose.

In fact there's so much free stuff on youtube that's really quality that I'm not sure you gain that much from paid online services, unless you really like the motivation from paying for something.

I have the Beginning Jazz Keyboard book that's been mentioned, a Real Book v6 and Mark Levine's piano jazz book. Combined with youtube I feel I have enough material for the next 2-3 years honestly. Hopefully by then I'll found some other people to play with.

I also have Book 1 & 2 of Jazz, Rags and Blues which are really fun, and I'll probably continue that series as I tick off the songs.

Last edited by AndrewJCW; 07/26/15 07:52 PM.
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2444798 07/27/15 05:52 AM
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Gumbysgroove, it's really impossible for any of us out here in PW land to evaluate the dynamic between you and your teacher - what you're learning and where you're going w/what you're learning. Because to point out the obvious, you're the only one here in this discussion who takes lessons w/your teacher! So the few paragraphs you've written about him and his methods, at least for me - and I'm a teacher - don't really describe what might or might not be happening in your lessons or your practice sessions or where you are in the learning process or what might benefit you the most.

That said, as others have advised, bring your concerns directly to your teacher–at each and every lesson if necessary. Keep in mind that students and teachers can have a collaborative "work-together-towards-a students'-goals" relationship, rather than a master/student dynamic where the teacher says and student does w/out knowing why he or she is doing whatever is being done. In other words in lessons you should have a sense of where you're going with what you're learning and not simply an idea of what has to be learned for next week before you can go onto the following week. And there shouldn't be a sense of "you have to learn all of this stuff in this order before you can begin to put everything into practice."

Also, keep in mind because you're in NJ that you're well within range of many great jazz pianists and teachers in the NYC area. What many excellent teachers are always looking for are inquisitive students who try to work creatively rather than passively with information given at lessons. Which is to say many teachers who might seem like they only take advanced students are really just and simply looking for students who have a genuine interest in learning. They're looking for students who try to formulate interesting questions including questions about "where are we going with the material that we're now learning." That's where collaboration w/your teacher on your learning process comes into the equation. There's got to be a common dialogue between the two of you rather than just simply the passing on of information. Which I might say is a problem with Youtube learning, because you're getting the passing on of the information but you're not accessing the dialogue that opens the information up into larger context. That's a dialogue that requires interaction with a teacher. But that said, OF COURSE there's a wealth of information about how to play jazz piano on Youtube and it's better to watch it and learn than to pass judgement on it not having seen it!

As for the Mark Levine book, it's one of the better textbooks that's out there and it's one of the ones that many students and teachers commonly recommend. But it's not a required book in any sense of the word and many great jazz teachers don't use it or see a need for it. That said, any and every book you read about "how to play jazz" is going to help you and give you some knowledge and advantage, which is to say there are very few books out there on which I'd put an AVOID AT ALL COSTS sticker!

If I was going to recommend one book (well one method) I'd say take a look at the Barry Harris Jazz Workship video series. They're comprehensive and Barry Harris is one of the great jazz pianists who was there in the days when Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, and others were formulating bebop and the base of what's now led into "contemporary" jazz. You can find many free Barry Harris videos on Youtube–but seen out of context on Youtube what BH teaches can seem remote and hard if not impossible to follow. So his Workshop videos really are a different thing altogether. Because they're sequenced and they come with a book. But like the Levine book, the BH materials are not requisite resources that you MUST work through BEFORE you can play jazz. They're simply a teaching/learning methods of someone who was there at the beginning of it all.

I hope I've added something useful to the discussion. Basically, have an ongoing dialogue with your teacher always about what you're learning and not simply just an explanation of a page from a book with a short example. If you can have that dialogue and if your teacher encourages you to explore what you're learning and what your goals are then you're probably with a great teacher.

If you're closer to Philly than NYC there are a multitude of great teachers/pianists there too. Basically in your part of the US you're close to what many consider to be the centre of jazz. So take advantage of that in your learning!

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
gracegren #2445545 07/29/15 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gracegren
Yesterday I saw a link on Facebook for jazzpianoschool.com and I am going to start the free 7-day trial today. It looks very comprehensive, offers step-by-step learning approaches in four areas: improv, theory, technique, and repertoire. There is also jazzpianoonline.com and freejazzlessons.com.


I took the 7-day trial, also.

Today, I took the plunge and subscribed to the LIFETIME option.

This looks to be the real deal and along with private lessons should provide me with enough guidance, material and options to get me to where I want to be ... jazz cocktail piano.

Time will tell.


Last edited by dmd; 07/29/15 01:51 PM.

Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
dmd #2445566 07/29/15 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by gracegren
Yesterday I saw a link on Facebook for jazzpianoschool.com and I am going to start the free 7-day trial today. It looks very comprehensive, offers step-by-step learning approaches in four areas: improv, theory, technique, and repertoire. There is also jazzpianoonline.com and freejazzlessons.com.


I took the 7-day trial, also.

Today, I took the plunge and subscribed to the LIFETIME option.

This looks to be the real deal and along with private lessons should provide me with enough guidance, material and options to get me to where I want to be ... jazz cocktail piano.

Time will tell.



Hmmm... I'm also interested in this for its structured option. I searched thru jazzpianoschool website and couldn't find any pricing info though.

Can you provide a link to that info or just state it here?

Thanks!


Bert
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Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
newbert #2445570 07/29/15 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by newbert
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by gracegren
Yesterday I saw a link on Facebook for jazzpianoschool.com and I am going to start the free 7-day trial today. It looks very comprehensive, offers step-by-step learning approaches in four areas: improv, theory, technique, and repertoire. There is also jazzpianoonline.com and freejazzlessons.com.


I took the 7-day trial, also.

Today, I took the plunge and subscribed to the LIFETIME option.

This looks to be the real deal and along with private lessons should provide me with enough guidance, material and options to get me to where I want to be ... jazz cocktail piano.

Time will tell.



Hmmm... I'm also interested in this for its structured option. I searched thru jazzpianoschool website and couldn't find any pricing info though.

Can you provide a link to that info or just state it here?

Thanks!


I do not see why not. I do not think it is a secret.

However, if you take the 7-day trial, you will have access to the pricing options.

What I saw was $67 per month, regular pricing or $997 for the LIFETIME option.

However, after taking the 7-day trial, there is a short window in which you can opt for a month subscription for $47 or the LIFETIME for $697.

I opted for the LIFETIME.

A bit of a gamble, but as I said ... the site looks to be very good and there appears to be a solid commitment to excellence in material.


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
Gumbysgroove #2445576 07/29/15 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gumbysgroove
"Gumbysgroove, what you practically playing on piano?"
Hi Nahum, I'm not sure what your asking?
If your asking what do I play now on piano, I feel comfortable
playing songs in the early intermediate skill level category.
That's why I'm taking lessons to improve , but going in the Jazz direction. If I'm not good enough to try going the Jazz route, that's one thought that came to mind.
I'm really questioning my teacher's method.


that pretty much doesn't say anything because defining something as "early intermediate" is just like saying I think that color is pretty nice without pointing any color.
first. which kind of songs do you play well. you can name few that we can find on youtube to get an idea of how you play and where you do stand.
second, two months is pretty much nothing to see any tangible progress especially if you are really at an intermediate level, at that level six month is about a minimum that I'd consider to see you are doing something better.
third, for how long have you been playing, with and without a teacher. sometimes teachers do have to undo the damages done by other teachers and/or self learners... here usually students feel like they are going backwards for a while before they start progressing again.

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
dmd #2445610 07/29/15 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by newbert
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by gracegren
Yesterday I saw a link on Facebook for jazzpianoschool.com and I am going to start the free 7-day trial today. It looks very comprehensive, offers step-by-step learning approaches in four areas: improv, theory, technique, and repertoire. There is also jazzpianoonline.com and freejazzlessons.com.


I took the 7-day trial, also.

Today, I took the plunge and subscribed to the LIFETIME option.

This looks to be the real deal and along with private lessons should provide me with enough guidance, material and options to get me to where I want to be ... jazz cocktail piano.

Time will tell.



Hmmm... I'm also interested in this for its structured option. I searched thru jazzpianoschool website and couldn't find any pricing info though.

Can you provide a link to that info or just state it here?

Thanks!


I do not see why not. I do not think it is a secret.

However, if you take the 7-day trial, you will have access to the pricing options.

What I saw was $67 per month, regular pricing or $997 for the LIFETIME option.

However, after taking the 7-day trial, there is a short window in which you can opt for a month subscription for $47 or the LIFETIME for $697.

I opted for the LIFETIME.

A bit of a gamble, but as I said ... the site looks to be very good and there appears to be a solid commitment to excellence in material.


Wowzers, they must have REALLY impressed you. I'm not sure what an online service could possibly do to inspire that commitment. In the holidays I might take up the trial to check it out.

Re: Relative beginner taking Jazz lessons needs advise
AndrewJCW #2445624 07/29/15 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJCW
Wowzers, they must have REALLY impressed you. I'm not sure what an online service could possibly do to inspire that commitment. In the holidays I might take up the trial to check it out.


Well, I am re-committing myself to doing my best to attain my goal of playing cocktail jazz piano at a high level.

I am taking private lessons and we are focusing on repertoire so this website will allow me to build my skill set which will help support my work on a repertoire.

Now, I know I have everything I need. The rest is up to me doing the work.

Check back with me in a year and I will tell you if it was the right decision.




Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer

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