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Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436057 06/27/15 08:05 AM
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these things are stictly convenience:

-built in headphone amp
-cup holder (american mini van import)
-adjustable music stand (to get the music closer to my eyes)
-stand with internal wiring (so I don't have to see the power and pedal cables)

all without adding any weight of course.
None of these will actually make the keyboard sound better however.





Started Level 1 of Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course on 8 May 2015

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Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436059 06/27/15 08:10 AM
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R_B: Don't forget that there are those who listen to music, and there are those who are actively engaged in making music. For the latter group the physical presence and 'life' of sound is by far more important than its reproduction. After all, even on DPs some of us are not interested in creating "perfect" midi files that would then reproduce a piece (repeatable indefinitely) but in practicing and performing in real time, with each iteration being quite singular.

For those of us who look for the music as it is created every single time there is a need for a wealth of nuances to be explored and used in expressing ourselves and the music.

By the way I am convinced that some professionals spend very little time with CD's or mp3's or whatever. For recreation they might rather read a book, or do something else that has nothing to do with their professional life.


Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436062 06/27/15 08:19 AM
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To the base post;
What I would like to be able to buy is probably not what manufacturers most want to sell (for profit).

I would like the option to buy;
Empty cabinets in many shapes, sizes and "furniture" styles.
Key beds in a variety of touch and feel.
Flexible electronics, e.g. sample libraries, modeled, with the ability to update/upgrade.
Touch screen capable display port ...this would all hinge on having a decent O/S.
Integration of teaching/learning software.
Amp/DSP/Mixer/Speaker options, both built in and line out.

I don't think it would take a lot to "architect" (verb) this, but it would kill the business of planned obsolescence in particle board boxes with minimal electronics in them laugh



Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436065 06/27/15 08:34 AM
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maurus;
True, I play my little beginner pieces for a) the sheer pleasure of playing them b) to improve my playing.
I am not recording them either as midi or as audio, the pleasure is in the NOW.

All wooden pianos are different, my silicon set up is also different, it doesn't have to sound or feel EXACTLY like arbitrary wooden piano make/model/serial# X/Y/Z.
It makes piano like noises for me when I play music like sequences on the keys laugh
That is all that matters - to ME.
I am the only judge on this, there is no jury laugh

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436067 06/27/15 08:43 AM
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Exactly. thumb

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436068 06/27/15 09:22 AM
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Hmm

Can we say action stands alone? I think we're agreeing on that.

Then when we ignore features and looks for the moment, we are left with the voice (Yamaha, Kawai, Boesendorfer etc.) which is personal taste.

Then comes the samples and/or (added) modeling. There, I think, we all seem to agree that not enough is done today. A DP that would allow for "plug in" of samples or models, or any kind of enhancement, would be a great improvement. Today, what we have is controllers like Kawai VPC1 etc. but it required additional hardware.

Then comes the speaker systems. Speakers and soundboards etc. How much does this actually impede sample reproduction? I mean, for sure I was able to hear the difference between 2 and 4 speakers. I assume the "return on adding speakers" would go down at some point, how much is left of the acoustic experience that is beyond speakers? Is there research on this?


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2436076 06/27/15 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
That has a bit of conspiracy theory to it. smile


Hehe... nothing like a good conspiracy theory! Oh, and yes, I do agree that it would be a very very difficult, but magnificent feat of engineering if they could actually get digitals to reproduce the sound complexities of an acoustic piano. I say very very difficult, but optimistic in the sense that I do not think it is completely impossible.

Anyway, I digress. If king for a day, I'd:
- put a lot of money into piano modeling technology to try to get as close to acoustic sound reproduction as possible
- combine it with the AvantGrand keyboard technology
- add a soundboard speaker to it
- Allow plug in modules to support different software pianos / sounds


Still deciding whether I am playing for fun or playing to improve... leaning towards fun :-)
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Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: R_B] #2436123 06/27/15 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by R_B
I would like the option to buy;
Empty cabinets in many shapes, sizes and "furniture" styles.
Key beds in a variety of touch and feel.
Flexible electronics, e.g. sample libraries, modeled, with the ability to update/upgrade.
Touch screen capable display port ...this would all hinge on having a decent O/S.
Integration of teaching/learning software.
Amp/DSP/Mixer/Speaker options, both built in and line out.

Yeah, this is pretty much the sort of thing I'd like to see. When I buy a PC from a vendor's web site I get to mix and match components: i.e., what CPU do I want, what operating system, how much memory, and so on with various other hardware and software components. The vendor builds the PC to my specifications and sends it to me. Later on, if I think I'm up to it, I can order additional hardware and upgrade the PC myself. This can only take me so far of course, and after a certain point I have to buy a new PC if I want more performance, but still, this sort of flexibility is very useful, and I don't see any technical reason why you couldn't have a certain amount of modularity in DPs as well.

In particular I think it would make sense to make the electronics modular. In principle I suppose you could mix and match keyboards, cabinets, and sound systems, but this strikes me as a bit tricky. Electronics however have just been getting endlessly faster and more compact and more powerful, and with DPs being so much bigger than PCs you have plenty of space to work with, so the first thing I would do as king is standardize whatever needed to be standardized so that new all DPs would have a little door somewhere that you could open up in order to add and remove modules for sound samples, sound generators, operating systems, whatever.

(No wait..., actually I think the first thing I would do as King For A Day is arrest all the rest of you, so I could be king tomorrow too! grin ).

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436144 06/27/15 03:52 PM
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Option for reduced width keys.

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: ONfrank] #2436178 06/27/15 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ONfrank
Option for reduced width keys.

Is that something we really want? I work with computers, and one thing that has been absolutely burned into the consciousness of the IT profession over the years is the importance of standardization. The standard key width we have now may or may not be the optimum choice, but having one standard means that if you've learned to play the piano, you've learned to play any piano. Is that something we want to give up?

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: ONfrank] #2436183 06/27/15 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ONfrank
Option for reduced width keys.



Last edited by Dave Weiser; 06/27/15 09:50 PM.
Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436208 06/28/15 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Modular pianos. You select which options you'd like, and you can upgrade later on. So if at first your budget only allows for the base model, you can later upgrade your action, sounds, screen, buttons, and yes, even bells and whistles. wink

Originally Posted by peterws
How about interchangeable keyboards which you can purchase seperately . . and configure your Perfect Piano!


I love both of these ideas and the modular/PC concept...oh if only.....

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If only the manufacturers had a incentive to meet these demands. But I suspect that the market won't drive any of these improvements.
Yeah it appears that's part of the problem, not enough buyers. But even with a modest # of buyers, you'd think they would try to find what those buyers want and accommodate as much as possible. #@$% it, ASK us! smile


Originally Posted by toddy

What is there not to be satisfied with?
You might try actually reading the other posts, then you'll find out

wink


Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You're assuming that it's even possible to make digital pianos with the complexity of sound that could be generated from an acoustic. It's not.

Because.........


Originally Posted by BRS

-cup holder

We have a winner.

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: ONfrank] #2436218 06/28/15 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ONfrank
Option for reduced width keys.

I present to thee http://www.steinbuhler.com/

Those are for acoustic pianos, though...

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436225 06/28/15 02:46 AM
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Jeb: It is already an OPTION for acoustic pianos. It's an expensive option, but it's invaluable for people with small hands.
Originally Posted by JEB NYC
Is that something we really want? I work with computers, and one thing that has been absolutely burned into the consciousness of the IT profession over the years is the importance of standardization. The standard key width we have now may or may not be the optimum choice, but having one standard means that if you've learned to play the piano, you've learned to play any piano. Is that something we want to give up?
Hands are not standardized, and the "standard" for good design should be good usability. For some people, that's calls for a reduced-width keyboard.

Onfrank did say "option", right?

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: MacMacMac] #2436267 06/28/15 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Jeb: It is already an OPTION for acoustic pianos. It's an expensive option, but it's invaluable for people with small hands.
Originally Posted by JEB NYC
Is that something we really want? I work with computers, and one thing that has been absolutely burned into the consciousness of the IT profession over the years is the importance of standardization. The standard key width we have now may or may not be the optimum choice, but having one standard means that if you've learned to play the piano, you've learned to play any piano. Is that something we want to give up?
Hands are not standardized, and the "standard" for good design should be good usability. For some people, that's calls for a reduced-width keyboard.

Onfrank did say "option", right?


Even on acoustics there is no standard width, so I see nothing wrong with this option. I would venture to say wider widths as an option as well. I've had some students with particularly large-thick fingers where they had difficulty playing in between the black keys.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: Morodiene] #2436456 06/28/15 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Jeb: It is already an OPTION for acoustic pianos. It's an expensive option, but it's invaluable for people with small hands.
Originally Posted by JEB NYC
Is that something we really want? I work with computers, and one thing that has been absolutely burned into the consciousness of the IT profession over the years is the importance of standardization. The standard key width we have now may or may not be the optimum choice, but having one standard means that if you've learned to play the piano, you've learned to play any piano. Is that something we want to give up?
Hands are not standardized, and the "standard" for good design should be good usability. For some people, that's calls for a reduced-width keyboard.

Onfrank did say "option", right?


Even on acoustics there is no standard width, so I see nothing wrong with this option. I would venture to say wider widths as an option as well. I've had some students with particularly large-thick fingers where they had difficulty playing in between the black keys.

Wikipedia lists the modern keyboard octave span as 164-165 mm; if you are saying there are respectable acoustic piano manufacturers that deviate from that significantly, it would be news to me, and I'd like to see some sources.

The next smallest proposed standard is 15/16 size, or 152 mm, which is a half inch difference. If you require a 15/16 keyboard to play a piece by Rachmaninoff, you are not going to be able to play that piece on a standard piano keyboard. I just think that's a bad thing.

And since nonstandard octave spans are probably always going to be rare, anyone who learns his technique on one will be learning to play a rare instrument that he isn't going to come across very often, outside of his own home. This is less of a problem with many other instruments, both because they are more portable (you can take yours along), and because it isn't so difficult to adjust to different sizes (e.g., with woodwinds it's rather easy). But with the piano it seems to me that all you are doing is ghettoizing yourself. I see families buying short keyboards for their small children and never getting around to replacing them, and those kids are screwed. (For that matter, how will they even be able to play their lessons on their piano teacher's piano?)

I guess you could make the case that a short keyboard could make sense for a gigging musician who already has a strong technique, who takes his own keyboards on the road, and wants effects he can't manage with a full sized keyboard. But that looks like kind of a narrow market to me.

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436465 06/28/15 07:12 PM
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So you're saying that small-handed people should just "suck it up" and live with a keyboard that doesn't suit? That brings to mind the 70s-era song "Short People Got No Reason To Live". frown

And yes, there is variation of key spacing ... even setting aside the special-build reduced keyboards.

Finally ... this is true:
Originally Posted by JEB NYC
If you require a 15/16 keyboard to play a piece by Rachmaninoff, you are not going to be able to play that piece on a standard piano keyboard.
But what do you mean by this?
Quote
I just think that's a bad thing.
What's a bad thing? Inability to play Rachmaninov's music on a "standard" keyboard? Or being able to play his music on a reduced keyboard?

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436490 06/28/15 08:41 PM
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Anyway.........back to king for a day ideas......

I'm almost obsessed with the plug n play thing now. The more I think of it the more I can't believe this isn't an option, in ANY way. Any company who implements this would IMO corner the market. You could have better or lesser keyboards, screens, knobs, boards which give varying polyphony etc etc there's no limit and you could build it the way YOU want, not be forced to choose between various imperfect solutions.

Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: JEB NYC] #2436494 06/28/15 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JEB NYC
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Jeb: It is already an OPTION for acoustic pianos. It's an expensive option, but it's invaluable for people with small hands.
Originally Posted by JEB NYC
Is that something we really want? I work with computers, and one thing that has been absolutely burned into the consciousness of the IT profession over the years is the importance of standardization. The standard key width we have now may or may not be the optimum choice, but having one standard means that if you've learned to play the piano, you've learned to play any piano. Is that something we want to give up?
Hands are not standardized, and the "standard" for good design should be good usability. For some people, that's calls for a reduced-width keyboard.

Onfrank did say "option", right?


Even on acoustics there is no standard width, so I see nothing wrong with this option. I would venture to say wider widths as an option as well. I've had some students with particularly large-thick fingers where they had difficulty playing in between the black keys.

Wikipedia lists the modern keyboard octave span as 164-165 mm; if you are saying there are respectable acoustic piano manufacturers that deviate from that significantly, it would be news to me, and I'd like to see some sources.
I didn't say modern acoustic pianos. Nor did I say things vary significantly. Even minuscule differences make a difference when one is accustomed to a different size.

Quote
The next smallest proposed standard is 15/16 size, or 152 mm, which is a half inch difference. If you require a 15/16 keyboard to play a piece by Rachmaninoff, you are not going to be able to play that piece on a standard piano keyboard. I just think that's a bad thing.

And since nonstandard octave spans are probably always going to be rare, anyone who learns his technique on one will be learning to play a rare instrument that he isn't going to come across very often, outside of his own home.
Not everyone wants to be a concert pianist.

Quote
This is less of a problem with many other instruments, both because they are more portable (you can take yours along), and because it isn't so difficult to adjust to different sizes (e.g., with woodwinds it's rather easy). But with the piano it seems to me that all you are doing is ghettoizing yourself. I see families buying short keyboards for their small children and never getting around to replacing them, and those kids are screwed. (For that matter, how will they even be able to play their lessons on their piano teacher's piano?)
"Ghettoizing"? Even if that were a word, I have no idea what you're on about. And what's this about kids playing on a keyboard? Who said anything about that?

Last edited by Morodiene; 06/28/15 09:09 PM.

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Re: King for a day: how you'd change the DP products coming out [Re: bill5] #2436505 06/28/15 09:53 PM
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A while back in this thread we were chatting on best speaker types and designs for reproducing piano sound in a room. I wondered if using ribbon speakers or other design types would do a good job of this. Maybe the entire front of the piano cabinet (upright) could be 3 ribbon speakers the size of the whole harp and sound board, each dedicated to low mid and high frequencies for same effect of the different strings resonating in the box. And a nice sub on the bottom, facing down like a Leslie cab for the bass.

Thread on alternative speaker Designs

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