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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
maurus #2432047 06/15/15 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Pete14
Is the CA-97 water-resistant?

You would do the board a great favor if you could simply try and report back. grin

Ah and by the way just add an acoustic piano to the test so we can have the next acoustic vs. digital thread based on proper evidence. grin grin


I'm considering driving to my nearest Kawai dealer to perform such a test, but I'm not sure the dealer will allow for me to water-down his pianos. If he does allow for the aforementioned test, I will douse a CA-97 and a Shigeru in water, wait for a few minutes, and then play-test the instruments. grin

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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2432073 06/15/15 12:04 PM
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I guess this will result in a few special deals (at least for the Shigeru):

An Accident! Bursting of water pipe creates havoc

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
maurus #2432240 06/15/15 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
I guess this will result in a few special deals (at least for the Shigeru):

An Accident! Bursting of water pipe creates havoc

On page 5 you can get a coat made of squirrels for $100!


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2432249 06/15/15 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
On page 5 you can get a coat made of squirrels for $100!


I'm curious about the 'painless extraction or no charge' service offered by Scott Dental Offices.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2432266 06/15/15 08:48 PM
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Kawai James

Oddly there is a Scott Family Dental Group practicing there. I wonder if they're related, or possibly a family of immortal dentists. smile



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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
maurus #2433152 06/18/15 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Pete14
Is the CA-97 water-resistant?

You would do the board a great favor if you could simply try and report back. grin

Ah and by the way just add an acoustic piano to the test so we can have the next acoustic vs. digital thread based on proper evidence. grin grin


The acoustic piano test would be fine, as shown in this 1924 film.

https://youtu.be/kW_qWYWASBs?t=477

But "water boarding" was just outlawed by an act of congress in the U.S., so you won't be able to try it on the ES7.


Rodney Sauer
Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8
Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
Kawai James #2433177 06/18/15 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by lolatu
So the key surfaces on the CA95 "absorb moisture":


But the new CA97 surfaces "resist moisture".


Which is it, Kawai??


The first video is correct - the key surfaces absorb moisture.

Thank you for posting the video, by the way.

Cheers,
James
x


I wonder, if we are going to be pedantic, is it really correct ? I would have thought it may be adsorption is what is actually happening how the keys deal with moisture. Resistant would to me indicate it acts as a repellent, a material with hydrophobic properties, then any water molecules would just stay on the top of the keys, so doubt it's that. On the other hand I shudder to think what absorption would do on a chemical level to the key tops, doesn't sound right to me and not a good design long term to prevent deterioration. There again, it may be okay given a lifetime they are designed to last for.

In any case, pedantic points aside, In both cases I would have taken it to mean that the keys are designed to help with sweaty hands and preventing slip, something like that. It's not something I would get hung up on, besides, it would probably be a common issue for a lot of buyers to never have heard of adsorption, even if that is what is primarily at work.



Selftaught since June 2014.
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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433244 06/18/15 12:37 PM
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Anyway ... sSince when is there a need to tout the ability of solid plastic to resist moisture? Is there such a thing as moisture-absorbing plastic?

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
MacMacMac #2433267 06/18/15 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Is there such a thing as moisture-absorbing plastic?


Isn't that what these pianos with textured keys are supposed to do? And doesn't ivory, on which it's modelled, do the same thing?

...otherwise, the keys may simply be easier to grip, which would makes sense, I suppose.


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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
toddy #2433526 06/19/15 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
In any case, pedantic points aside, In both cases I would have taken it to mean that the keys are designed to help with sweaty hands and preventing slip, something like that. It's not something I would get hung up on, besides, it would probably be a common issue for a lot of buyers to never have heard of adsorption, even if that is what is primarily at work.

I don't think it's really pedantic. If it doesn't do what it says (as it can't if it claims to both "resist" and "absorb"), it's false advertising. This does matter: you can't just make stuff up about your product to get people to buy it.

According to a patent that was dug up in a previous thread, the plastic of the white key surface contains powdered silica gel. Hence, if it's doing anything, as you correctly surmise, it's adsorbing (not absorbing) moisture. However since...

1) water can only be adsorbed by grains at the surface, so the volume adsorbed must be really tiny, limited to the thickness of a powder grain and the % of surface area consisting of these grains
2) silica gel needs to be heated to oven-temperatures to desiccate it after hydration

... I would bet that the silica at the surface becomes hydrated immediately after production from moisture in the air, and it's unlikely that any water is adsorbed during the keys' playing life.

Originally Posted by toddy
...otherwise, the keys may simply be easier to grip, which would makes sense, I suppose.

Possible, but actually my smooth-plastic Roland keys have a better grip (just like you can grip glass which is perfectly smooth). More likely it makes the surface rougher and therefore more ivory-like. Personally I'm not sure I've ever played a piano with real ivory; nor do I have any desire to. Sawn up bits of tooth. Gross.


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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433550 06/19/15 03:45 PM
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The keys neither adsorb nor absorb; the keys absolve.
It truly is a religious experience, I've heard.

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433758 06/20/15 08:59 AM
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"...Is there such a thing as moisture-absorbing plastic?..."

There are contact lenses. So the answer is, "Yes." How useful it will be to know that is another matter.

I find that the surface on the keys of my Kawai is nicer to touch than that of ordinary acrylic keytops. Not too slick, not too rough. Besides the surface itself, there is a subtle patterning. I suppose if your fingers are really wet, it might help them grip the keys the way the pattern on your tires helps them grip the road.

But, I have spent time just looking intently at the acrylic-topped keys on my MP8ii, noticing how carefully Kawai has treated all the surfaces, edges, etc. Very nice job.


Clef

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433774 06/20/15 10:05 AM
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Contact lenses are porous. They're meant to be that way. But are piano keys porous? Nope. Just solid plastic.

Regardless ... I wouldn't want piano keys to absorb moisture. Would you?

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
MacMacMac #2433801 06/20/15 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wouldn't want piano keys to absorb moisture. Would you?

Knowing that a keyboard was impregnated with the bodily fluids of its owner would probably lower its resale value. Could be helpful for those looking for a cheap used instrument.

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
MacMacMac #2433812 06/20/15 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Contact lenses are porous. They're meant to be that way. But are piano keys porous? Nope. Just solid plastic.

Regardless ... I wouldn't want piano keys to absorb moisture. Would you?


Isn't this exactly the point: the DP makers positively crow about using some high technology plastic, perhaps similar to contact lenses, which absorbs 'bodily fluids' as it was termed above:

Synthetic ivory differs from the plastic keys because it has more texture and will absorb some sweat. In general, it wouldn’t be wrong to say that this will be a better option for people who have sweaty hands.

Digital Music Instruments

...feel of ivory acoustic piano keys providing a familiar stability and comfort to the pianist. The keys are designed to absorb moisture....

Roland

Ivory Touch key surfaces are engineered with a painstaking attention to detail, so not only does the fine microtexture feel just like the real thing, your key surfaces also colour naturally and absorb moisture from your finger tips, giving you sublime control over every note you play.

Kawai

Last edited by toddy; 06/20/15 11:31 AM.

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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433835 06/20/15 12:30 PM
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Well, the keys on my seven-year-old Yamaha are still white.
Their surfaces did not "colour naturally and absorb moisture from your finger tips".
They're still as white as snow. And I'm glad of it.

Do other keyboards absorb? I doubt it.
But regardless ... would manufacturers please spend more time improving their pianos?
And spend less time BS trumpeting their (not) absorbent keytops?

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
MacMacMac #2433838 06/20/15 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well, the keys on my seven-year-old Yamaha are still white.
Their surfaces did not "colour naturally and absorb moisture from your finger tips".
They're still as white as snow. And I'm glad of it.


Ah, but did you get a piano with ivory textured keys?


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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433852 06/20/15 01:29 PM
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Smooth keys.

Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433858 06/20/15 01:45 PM
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Yes - like on mine. Actually, I find they have enough texture for the fingers not to slip, and if anything, they will probably last longer than the ivory type before their surface erodes.


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Re: Kawai key surfaces now "resist moisture"
lolatu #2433871 06/20/15 02:23 PM
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I refuse to buy pianos with "synthetic ivory keytops" since most used keys on my Kawai ES7 became shiny after just a few months of playing. Now my regular "plastic" Yamaha keys look like new regardless of how much I play.

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