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Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? #2428616
06/04/15 09:16 AM
06/04/15 09:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6
H
HUB Offline OP
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HUB  Offline OP
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Hi,
First of all, English is definitely not my mother language so I am sorry for my poor English, I'll simply ask for your indulgence and hope you'll understand me.
My little girl aged 8 has learn to play the "piano" on a keyboard (yamaha PSR)for 2 years now. We do not have a lot of money and I wanted to be sure she'll get into it. She definitely did and she kind of impress me with her skill to play with both hands while singing looking the audience in the eyes and not the keyboard (well, I must admit she is not playing Rachmaninov's stuff). But, when she tried on several instance to play on a real piano, things get very difficult for her ... She do not control anymore what's happening (especially the sound). So it is the time for a change.
Unfortunately, we do not have the place and money (all the more as it should have a silent added) for a real acoustic piano which would be the best for her without doubt. So the alternative is a DP. My question is about the choice between a portable one or cabinet one. Let me be more specific about what I have in my head right now: a KAWAI ES-100 or a CASIO AP-450 (both used but less than 6months)
The Kawai is here for the money and its good review especially for the realistic touch (not tried yet). The Casio is here for I have an opportunity to get one and for its sounds good from my point of view (I am a guitarist far from being a pianist ... I'm learning piano playing along with my girl). Does having a cabinet really bring something to a DP ? I mean in terms of sound, duration, quality, confort of playing, etc ... Not in terms of portability, because then I know which is the winner ?
Is the Casio worth the extra 300 euros ?
From the touch point of view, can these two be compared ?
I am kind of influenced by AZpiano review but taking only one people opinion is just biased and I am not a good enough pianist to judge for the quality of the sound and touch ... Honestly, I am kind of not convinced by the CASIO touch when I compared to a real piano touch tetsed in the same dealer shop. I prefer Yamaha touch but in the same price range as the casio I just cannot stand the yamaha sound (very plastic, metallic, not far from the PSR). I tried higher price (500 euros more) clavinova and then the sound is OK to my ear.
Thanks for reading me and looking forward for your help.

Last edited by HUB; 06/04/15 09:17 AM.
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Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428622
06/04/15 09:36 AM
06/04/15 09:36 AM
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Posts: 133
Perth, Western Australia
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Just Alan Offline
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Hello HUB, I have a cabinet DP which is a lovely instrument, but it has to stay in the house because it is not portable. It is very heavy. I also have a Kawai MP7 which is an excellent DP, but is portable, which in my mind makes it much more versatile. As your child grows, you may find that portability is a bonus, as she will not be restricted to playing it in one place. Just my humble opinion. smile


1993 Roland JV1000 76 note workstation synth with Pop and VE-GS1 expansion boards ] 1994 Roland JV1080 Multi-timbral sound module ] 1994 Roland KR4500 Intelligent Piano ] 2008 Korg MicroX sound module ] 2015 Kawai MP7 Digital Stage Piano
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428624
06/04/15 09:43 AM
06/04/15 09:43 AM
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Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline
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kapelli  Offline
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Poland
deteled. For the reasons look on my below post.

Last edited by kapelli; 06/04/15 02:18 PM.
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: kapelli] #2428645
06/04/15 10:56 AM
06/04/15 10:56 AM
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HUB Offline OP
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HUB  Offline OP
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Thanx fo rthose answers,

@kapelli:
I am not considering buying a Yam, the clavinova with a sound that I appreciate is too expensive.

Speaking of sound, I do not agree with the DP being close one another. The rendering from a Yam is not the same as a Casio and I compared a PX-350 to the AP-450 (both CASIOs): the sound is very different (Probably due to the amplification system and speakers). This comparison leads me to that post on cabinet or portable (otherwise, the choice could have been between ES-100 and PX-350)

I am not sure that going to higher end DP is very interesting. I mean that then you get close to used acoustic piano price and even now I wondering if a DP is the real answer. And as Kapelli say what will happen in a few years if she goes on improving her skills... Sometimes I am thinking to go to acoustic right now ....

I do not want to wait anymore as I do not want my daughter to take too bad playing habits.

I wonder if i is a good thing to bring my daughter to the shop because she is not used to play a real piano and so, can lean toward something that is close to the very light touch of the PSR.

PS: I do not care about bells and whistles. I care about touch and piano rendition.

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Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428647
06/04/15 11:03 AM
06/04/15 11:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Hernando, MS
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fizikisto Offline
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HUB,
I can tell you that the Kawai ES-100 is very well regarded by a lot of pianists here. Obviously if you spend a lot more money you can get better, but in it's price range the ES-100 is widely considered to be one of the best digital pianos available. Given that your budget constraints are tight, I would save the 300 euros and go with the ES-100. It has a good action, authentic piano sounds, and decent speakers. Neither piano would be a bad choice, but based on your criteria (good sound and good action) the ES-100 more than meets your needs.


Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428650
06/04/15 11:12 AM
06/04/15 11:12 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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From everything I read, the ES-100 is well thought of, in terms of action and sound.

Thoroughly decent, and certainly good enough for a beginner.

In my opinion the Casio AP-450 is very good in terms of action and sound, here's a video of it being played by Max Tempia:-



Action tends toward being an individual thing - if possible have you and your daughter sample both. Otherwise, the Casio does have comprehensively better spec, as well as cabinet and on-board amplification and speakers.

Out of the two, there's no bad choices - one is a bit more feature rich - but both seem well thought of. If bells and whistles aren't that important, and there's a notable difference in price, then the ES-100 is thoroughly decent, from everything I've read about them.

Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428677
06/04/15 12:38 PM
06/04/15 12:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline
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Poland
deteled. For the reasons look on my below post.

Last edited by kapelli; 06/04/15 02:18 PM.
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: kapelli] #2428679
06/04/15 12:45 PM
06/04/15 12:45 PM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by kapelli
->Indeed Lester Burnham,
For a cheap piano Casio is good, but I found personally the ES100 better in terms of action. And, also these Casio promotional videos sound amazingly good... I mean... you will not get the same sensation and sound from the piano. To comparison, there are a lot of PX350 recording, and piano sounds completely different.

In fairness, in terms of true piano sounds, the AP-450 (and AP-650 for that matter) and PX850 should sound that bit better from a pure piano perspective. They have double the polyphony, and sympathetic resonance and other aspects to the sound engine that the lower models don't have.

Also, they have better amplification, speakers, and other additional "simulators" to enhance the piano sound.

So I'm not sure I buy this "you will not get the same sensation and sound from the piano" - in a couple of these videos the pianos are mic'd up as opposed to line-out recording.

Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428682
06/04/15 12:57 PM
06/04/15 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
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HUB Offline OP
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HUB  Offline OP
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Iw ant to precise that my daughter keyboard is a PSR-403 not a P45.

I agree with Lester: I do not realy care about youtube video (especially the promotion one), because you can do whatever you want with the sound of them.

So for you Lester, if I want a sound closer to a piano experience I should go to AP-450.

I should definitely find an ES100 to try, but my guess is that from the piano perspective, I should use an external amplification to get close to AP-450. Am I wrong ?

Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: kapelli] #2428683
06/04/15 12:58 PM
06/04/15 12:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,611
France
Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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France
Originally Posted by kapelli
YOu know all, the P45 is just same as P115 in terms of sound generating and action, and the same sound generator and only a bit better action that the P155... soo.... and P155 is highly respected here...

The P115 has a Pure-CF sound generator, the P-45 the (old) AWM. I don't think they are equal. (Even if the sound generator is equal, the P115 has more speakers for a better restitution)

The P-45 and P-115 also have a GHS action which is lighter than the GH of the P-155.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: Frédéric L] #2428690
06/04/15 01:51 PM
06/04/15 01:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,452
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Charles Cohen  Offline
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Richmond, BC, Canada
Several things . . .

If daughter has been playing a PSR (synth-action), her judgement of which weighted action 'feels better' will be biased. Better to try acoustic piano, then DP, and back to acoustic. Find the DP that feels closest to acoustic.

I did all my testing with headphones. Inexpensive DP's -- especially 'slab pianos' like ES-100 / PX-150 /P105 -- have weak amps and too-small loudspeakers. They sound much better through headphones or external amp/speakers.

If she might be performing, slab piano could be very handy.

There are several good choices in your price bracket. Do some more testing, pick one you and she both like.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428702
06/04/15 02:17 PM
06/04/15 02:17 PM
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Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline
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kapelli  Offline
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Poland
Oh sh*t laugh
NOw I realized, thanks Charles Cohen. LOL since the beggining I was thinking that she was playing on the P45, now I see PSR. o_O
So that changes everything, hence I will detele my previous posts, as they are not worthy anything.

In that case it is a hard choice, but if you are short on money, that I would chose the ES100. It will serve her good. I do not see a need for paying extra on Casio, moreover when it will be hard for you to pay for it. Main advantage of Casio is nicer cabinet and better amplification, but I personally find the action on Kawai better than Casio.

Last edited by kapelli; 06/04/15 02:21 PM.
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428732
06/04/15 04:08 PM
06/04/15 04:08 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 125
Eindhoven, Netherlands
Cue Zephyr Offline
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Cue Zephyr  Offline
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For slab DPs, Yamaha P-115 had the best speakers, but not the best action. The F-20's action seemed rather natural for the price but the built-in speakers were less than stellar. I haven't yet played a Kawai ES-100 although I wanted to. I might do when I have time to drop by the local piano shop just to have a look. I went with Casio myself. I was initially looking for best piano-like action but due to different circumstances/environment I chose the PX-5S.


Casio Privia Pro PX-5S, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Steinberg UR22, KRK RP6 G2, JBL LSR305
Guitar, mandolin and banjo player, hobbyist producer.
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Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428777
06/04/15 07:31 PM
06/04/15 07:31 PM
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Posts: 14,200
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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HUB, welcome to the forum.

First, your English is absolutely fine. wink

Second, either model you are considering will be a marked improvement over the PSR keyboard that your daughter is currently playing. It really comes down to the portability and lower price of the ES100 vs the larger cabinet of the AP-450.

Third, you may also wish to consider the Kawai KDP90. This is essentially a console version of the ES100 (same keyboard action and sound technology) with a larger speaker system.

Best of luck with your decision!

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428868
06/05/15 02:55 AM
06/05/15 02:55 AM
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HUB Offline OP
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Well, well, well
So, I think that I will go for the ES100 after I'll checked by myself its action and sound (and of course, baring in mind its good review by good pianists which is not my case).
Maybe, I'll buy its stand which is not expensive because I want my daughter also to learn to play with the pedals.
Maybe, I'll look for external amplification. BTW, as a guitarist, I have a lamp amplifier ( peavey classic 30 ). Can I plug it to the ES100 (but then I lose the stereo) ?

Anyway, thanks for all this response

Hub

Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428886
06/05/15 04:28 AM
06/05/15 04:28 AM
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Eindhoven, Netherlands
Cue Zephyr Offline
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I think the imput impedance on a guitar amp is different than the headphone or line output on a digital piano. That and the amp's response will be far from flat or 'natural' which is wha tyou want for a keyboard/piano/synth.


Casio Privia Pro PX-5S, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Steinberg UR22, KRK RP6 G2, JBL LSR305
Guitar, mandolin and banjo player, hobbyist producer.
on YouTube
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428895
06/05/15 04:55 AM
06/05/15 04:55 AM
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HUB Offline OP
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Thanx Cue ... Let me add that the clear channel on this amp is not that clear even with a guitar. Just a very very little crunchy sound which is nice when rock or blues playing but for a piano, I am not sure of the rendering ...

Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428897
06/05/15 04:58 AM
06/05/15 04:58 AM
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Eindhoven, Netherlands
Cue Zephyr Offline
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I know. I'm a guitarist too. wink

Even a super-clean Fender Twin wouldn't cut it. Guitar amps have tone stacks that alter the tone even when the EQ is set flat.

Methinks even computer speakers may sound better.

Last edited by Cue Zephyr; 06/05/15 05:01 AM.

Casio Privia Pro PX-5S, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Steinberg UR22, KRK RP6 G2, JBL LSR305
Guitar, mandolin and banjo player, hobbyist producer.
on YouTube
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2428904
06/05/15 05:11 AM
06/05/15 05:11 AM
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Posts: 14,200
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Guitar amps are great for playing electric pianos or organ sounds, but are pretty terrible at reproducing acoustic pianos. Give your Peavey a try by all means, however I'm 99% certain the instrument's onboard speakers will sound much better.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Cabinet or portable ? AP-450 or ES 100? [Re: HUB] #2430582
06/11/15 04:01 AM
06/11/15 04:01 AM
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HUB Offline OP
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Hi there,

I finally bought that es100.

I hesitated quite a bit after trying it. Just before buying it I went to a piano dealer ... Well, I should say a 95 % Yamaha dealer. So I tried what the seller told me as the best lower price thing he has: Arius YDP 162 (1000 euros with bench which is an incredible-must-buy-once-in-a-lifetime offer said the seller :)))). And also tried a higher-end Clavinova (about 1800 euros). I also tried acoustic uprights: a yamaha B1, and a KAWAI.

And now let's get to my point: impression on the ES-100 !

First of all: I AM NOT A PIANIST (just a bad rock guitarist trying to get things out of a piano, and doing it worse than his 8-year old daughter)

The piano looks nice for a piece of plastic (mine is white).
But I was kind of disappointed by the action which I think are low-weighted compared to the Yams I tested just before and also than CASIO PX 860 and AP450. It is not a sensation, I mean it is obvious. And weirdly, I found the keys on the es100 a little more tougher in the middle range than in the bass range (but that is more about a sensation). Interestingly, I got the same feeling with the acoustic piano I tried: the B1 was way much tough and hard to play than the KAWAI (MAy be that B1 has something because I've never tried such a hard thing).
Anyway, I was afraid that my daughter still got stuck in in front of an acoustic by learning on the ES100, and I'm still at that point. It is neither as easy to play than the PSR nor as tough as an acoustic (not that far from the acoustic KAWAI, but very far from the B1). So, I am still in doubt and almost afraid of having made the bad choice .
SO why do I bought it ? Well, I considered it as a bargain. I bought it used: the guy who sold it bought it two monthes ago and sold it 30 % off. Why ? because he got fed up with its lack of conviviality. He bought a P115 instead and can drive it thought his Ipad and he's very happy with that. He does not have anymore to figure out thought the manual how to split, dual, ....I hope that there are no hidden flaw (I tried it extensively and nothing shows off, no sticky pedal, no buzzy keys, ...) and anyway, it is still on warranty. BTW, comparing the action of the P115 and the ES100 side by side is kind of tricky for me and I'm not sensible enough to say if there is a difference (but I do not test the P115 very much). And concerning the action concern, the good reviews on the web by people who seems to be pianists finally prevailed over mine.
I appreciate the "real pedal" instead of a switch.
The sound : well it is a 2*7 Watt and no miracle in there. Seems that there is no distortion even at the highest volume (but not tested extensively fortissimo) The Yam, Casio 2*20 Watt cabinet style piano I tested were way much better from that point of view. BUt the prices are not the same especially compared to a 30% off ES100. I should find an inexpensive but faithful to the original sound way to amplify this.
So now, I am waiting the feedback from the piano teacher (I hope it will be good otherwise I'll get strangled by my wife :))

Thanx all for having answered my posts.

Last edited by HUB; 06/11/15 05:02 AM.

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