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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
iceporky #2430114 06/09/15 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iceporky


I didn't own an acoustic before I bought my CA95. I read comments like this and thought to myself, yep, a top-end CA95 is the way to go. Now that I have a Yamaha U3, I really can't understand why people feel that a digital piano is even close to a good acoustic. To me, there's just no comparison; a good acoustic upright is clearly so much better.


Hello iceporky,

you are probably right with the CA95, but I realized, at least for me, that the CA97 is a giant step forward soundwise compared to the old CA95, especially with the new shigeru kawai samples...

Daniel



KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430168 06/09/15 05:42 PM
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It's quite possible, that in the long term DPs will almost completely replace upright APs. The average digital is already in a better condition than the average upright AP "in the wild".


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430195 06/09/15 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Hello iceporky,

you are probably right with the CA95, but I realized, at least for me, that the CA97 is a giant step forward soundwise compared to the old CA95, especially with the new shigeru kawai samples...

Daniel


Hello Daniel,

I really don't mean to knock on your thread. I just want to leave my comments so that someone who is unsure if he should get an acoustic upright or a top-end digital piano has a more balanced view. The general view here is that one has to be misinformed to get an acoustic upright even if circumstances permit. From my personal experience, that view is so far from the truth.

I'm sure the samples on CA97 are great. But, like ando has commented, I feel it's about the connection with the instrument. Playing on a top-end digital piano can be a good experience in many ways (e.g great samples, reasonable key-action), but playing on a good acoustic upright or grand can be so much more uplifting and engaging.






Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
JoeT #2430197 06/09/15 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jtsn
It's quite possible, that in the long term DPs will almost completely replace upright APs. The average digital is already in a better condition than the average upright AP "in the wild".


That's the thing - we always compare a new digital piano with an old and beaten-up acoustic. How about we compare a new/good digital piano with a new/good acoustic? I'd think the differences are much greater then.

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
iceporky #2430206 06/09/15 08:31 PM
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When all is said & done, what you get out of a (sampled) digital is just that: sampled sounds, or recordings of a piano electronically processed. Nice sounds, to be sure, but exhibiting looping and all the other artefacts, which anyone experienced in playing acoustics won't fail to notice.

Whereas on a good acoustic, you can experience an infinite variety of sounds, not so on the digital. The more experienced a pianist you are, the more you'll feel limited by the digital. The way a good acoustic - whether upright or grand - responds to your touch, the direct connection between your fingers and the sound, the sheer variety of sounds you can get, and the way you can immerse yourself into music-making: all that is not to be underestimated, even if superficially, the concert grand samples from the digital might sound superior initially. In my experience, the latter palls very quickly when you realize the limitations.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
iceporky #2430219 06/09/15 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iceporky
Originally Posted by jtsn
It's quite possible, that in the long term DPs will almost completely replace upright APs. The average digital is already in a better condition than the average upright AP "in the wild".


That's the thing - we always compare a new digital piano with an old and beaten-up acoustic. How about we compare a new/good digital piano with a new/good acoustic? I'd think the differences are much greater then.


That's the thing, most people who are shopping for digital pianos are already in a certain price range, and they compare the upright pianos within that price range. They are usually very cheap Chinese pianos, or old clapped out models without any precision left in them. But a well maintained upright can have an excellent action. I've refurbished the action on my 1960s U3 and it has a better touch than literally every digital I've played so far. I think the upright action gets a bad rap in general - it is not an inferior design if the condition and execution is good. The one place where a grand action is well ahead (including some digital "grand" actions) is that of fast note repetition. If you don't need that, an upright can be perfectly fine. For general play, on my U3, the coupling of the action to the sound is very satisfying - well beyond any digital I've played. But I'm still in the market for a new digital just for practicality reasons, namely late night practice. DPs are a practical necessity in many situations - that's where they excel, IMO.

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430237 06/09/15 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Originally Posted by iceporky


I didn't own an acoustic before I bought my CA95. I read comments like this and thought to myself, yep, a top-end CA95 is the way to go. Now that I have a Yamaha U3, I really can't understand why people feel that a digital piano is even close to a good acoustic. To me, there's just no comparison; a good acoustic upright is clearly so much better.


Hello iceporky,

you are probably right with the CA95, but I realized, at least for me, that the CA97 is a giant step forward soundwise compared to the old CA95, especially with the new shigeru kawai samples...

Daniel


It isn't a giant leap... Sound system is exactly the same, and sampling technology is exactly the same. It has a couple of new samples added and that's all.


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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
iceporky #2430303 06/10/15 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by iceporky
There's no way a good acoustic will lose out to a CA97 in terms of sound or key-action. The key-action in a CA95/97 is nothing compared to a good acoustic.


This reply is utterly stupid, I'm not even sorry to say it, obviously the acoustic piano was invented during the Great Recession in order to replace the lack of electric power and digital piano supplies, so how could the ersatz, the imitation, the mimicking acoustic piano ever come even close to the magnificence of the real genuine instrument, namely the electric digital nuclear powered piano? How stupid!

And what is more powerful than the nuclear power, acoustic power?, come on!, how can this ever be? The OP is in right mind to declare, when it comes to play the piano, better play the original than the imitation, better play the Digital Piano, of course!

...

sleep

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430336 06/10/15 08:51 AM
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Perfect!

Now I have to switch energy providers from renewable to nuclear, because I did not realize that this and only this would give me the original sound.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
NotaBene #2430345 06/10/15 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by NotaBene
Originally Posted by iceporky
There's no way a good acoustic will lose out to a CA97 in terms of sound or key-action. The key-action in a CA95/97 is nothing compared to a good acoustic.


This reply is utterly stupid, I'm not even sorry to say it, obviously the acoustic piano was invented during the Great Recession in order to replace the lack of electric power and digital piano supplies, so how could the ersatz, the imitation, the mimicking acoustic piano ever come even close to the magnificence of the real genuine instrument, namely the electric digital nuclear powered piano? How stupid!

And what is more powerful than the nuclear power, acoustic power?, come on!, how can this ever be? The OP is in right mind to declare, when it comes to play the piano, better play the original than the imitation, better play the Digital Piano, of course!


I don't know - I think you may have created your own challenger in that category with this post...

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430368 06/10/15 10:33 AM
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Oh no problem ando, you won the prize for humor and good understanding yourself just right above!

...

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
iceporky #2430369 06/10/15 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by iceporky
That's the thing - we always compare a new digital piano with an old and beaten-up acoustic. How about we compare a new/good digital piano with a new/good acoustic? I'd think the differences are much greater then.

Including the much greater price difference.

Sure, those new high end uprights look great in the store. But someone who is really interested a good piano and proper maintenance will most likely get a grand, when he is able to spend such an amount of money. For the price of a brand-new premium upright you can get excellent properly refurbished grand pianos in Europe - with real ivory keys and sound wood in a quality which isn't available anymore. And then still have money left to buy an additional DP for playing at night.

That leaves us with the bread and butter uprights, which you find in people's homes and elsewhere, and these are usually in a terrible condition. Those pianos get slowly replaced by digitals now and will go extinct in the long term.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
JoeT #2430376 06/10/15 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jtsn
[quote=iceporky]
That leaves us with the bread and butter uprights, which you find in people's homes and elsewhere, and these are usually in a terrible condition.


But this is all what learning and playing the piano is about. If you think you learn and master playing electric switches, you're luring yourself very much. And the time is very much at that anyway, luring itself, so it doesn't make any difference anyway...

You'll hardly see a serious music school proposing a digital piano dpt ever.

So after the trend of the Digital piano will be long gone, some will be able to play the actual piano, while others will still consider the electric switches have more *nuances*...

But that's a pivot point indeed, when a thread offers you to let it all go at once and now believe sincerely the real thing is the electric switches and the rest is past history, don't you think?

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430387 06/10/15 11:27 AM
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Mechanical switches, electrical switches - all pianos of any description have always been one or the other. The player, remote and removed from the chords that make the music can effect one performance control: velocity - ie, how hard the key is hit. The mechanism or electrical switch measures that velocity.

I don't see why there's a decisive difference at all between the electronic and the mechanical, the digital and the 'analogue', except the digital generally (though not, perhaps, by definition) works within a certain set of parameters, whereas the acoustic does not. Though, in practice, that probably makes little difference for all of the classical repertoire.

As for the other discussion going on here, DPs offer a far 'better' action than the vast majority of uprights IMO - I mean there really is no comparison, if our aim is to feel like a well designed grand piano. Most uprights feel like toy buttons in comparison, whereas a good DP is a fairly good imitation of the weightier yet more responsive grand piano action.


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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
NotaBene #2430395 06/10/15 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by NotaBene
You'll hardly see a serious music school proposing a digital piano dpt ever.

For a music school it may be a sensible choice to replace mediocre worn-out practice uprights with (more) digitals and invest the saved money (especially on maintenance) into more and better grand pianos, so their students can have more time on the real thing.

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So after the trend of the Digital piano will be long gone

Lets see how this turns out. :-)

Quote
But that's a pivot point indeed, when a thread offers you to let it all go at once and now believe sincerely the real thing is the electric switches and the rest is past history, don't you think?

I just guess, that one substitute for a grand piano is going to be replaced by a better one. Just like it happened with square pianos.


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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430397 06/10/15 11:59 AM
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But very precisely the acoustic piano mechanics, upright or grand, is completely different from a switching device, it's a percussion device.

But never mind, I wish you to realize one day your fine DP skill is no more on the real instrument. Piano percussion mechanism is hard to master, learning and believing you can play it on a switching device doesn't help (this and the question of sampling, which is another problematic point not discussed here.) You feel this every time you feel the acoustic piano you try your skill onto isn't good enough, only you misunderstand the cause most of the time.

Everyone is a fairly good pianist on a digital piano, as they are easy, play fast, trigger always, forgive everything you do poorly. About the opposite of what the actual piano instrument really is.

Next in the thread I guess will be digital pianists arguing the latency is worse on their acoustic piano than on their computer sample program...

Digital pianos are necessary practice tools, but again, no music school will ever offer a digital piano program. You make better use of your time, learning the piano, practicing with difficulty on a very average acoustic piano, than flying on the keyboard of an artificially too easy digital keyboard. What you gain practicing on the former is always instantly usable on the latter, while the reverse is never the case.

You can disagree with this, it doesn't matter, it is how it is about the piano, maybe it's not yet the time for you to understand it really, so I just won't argue after that, as it'd be pointless.

Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
NotaBene #2430398 06/10/15 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NotaBene
But very precisely the acoustic piano mechanics, upright or grand, is completely different from a switching device, it's a percussion device.

But never mind, I wish you to realize one day your fine DP skill is no more on the real instrument. Piano percussion mechanism is hard to master, learning and believing you can play it on a switching device doesn't help (this and the question of sampling, which is another problematic point not discussed here.) You feel this every time you feel the acoustic piano you try your skill onto isn't good enough, only you misunderstand the cause most of the time.

Everyone is a fairly good pianist on a digital piano, as they are easy, play fast, trigger always, forgive everything you do poorly. About the opposite of what the actual piano instrument really is.

Next in the thread I guess will be digital pianists arguing the latency is worse on their acoustic piano than on their computer sample program...

Digital pianos are necessary practice tools, but again, no music school will ever offer a digital piano program. You make better use of your time, learning the piano, practicing with difficulty on a very average acoustic piano, than flying on the keyboard of an artificially too easy digital keyboard. What you gain practicing on the former is always instantly usable on the latter, while the reverse is never the case.

You can disagree with this, it doesn't matter, it is how it is about the piano, maybe it's not yet the time for you to understand it really, so I just won't argue after that, as it'd be pointless.


I was looking up "arrogant" and "elitist" in the dictionary and it referred me to this thread.

No "humble opinions" here.


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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430404 06/10/15 12:18 PM
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I wonder what a nuclear digital piano would sound like...

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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
danielp11 #2430406 06/10/15 12:20 PM
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I cannot talk about fine technique, because I do not have a fine technique on piano (I wish I did). But having learned on acoustics (both upright and grand) of various quality, and for the last 4 years only, having a digital piano, I do have an opinion about the feel of the respective actions.


Originally Posted by NotaBene
Everyone is a fairly good pianist on a digital piano, as they are easy, play fast, trigger always, forgive everything you do poorly. About the opposite of what the actual piano instrument really is............ You make better use of your time, learning the piano, practicing with difficulty on a very average acoustic piano, than flying on the keyboard of an artificially too easy digital keyboard .


Well, all I can say is that this is not my experience at all. In fact, DPs are very often somewhat heavier than the standard 50g down weight of a well regulated grand piano. Of course some grand pianos are even heavier, but some, also are lighter. There's more variation among acoustics, I'd say.

Furthermore, the sustain pedal's lightening of the action which occurs with the acoustic does not occur with the digital - the action remains the same weight regardless of what pedals are being used.

The actions of a digital may well be more predicable than most acoustics especially for practising and mastering pianissimo - I really am not in a position to judge on that. But if they are, so much the better, I'd have thought.

Last edited by toddy; 06/10/15 12:21 PM.

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Re: Is a good acoustic upright worse than a top digital Kawai CA97?
NotaBene #2430411 06/10/15 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NotaBene
I wish you to realize one day your fine DP skill is no more on the real instrument.

Sorry to blow your theory about my piano skills, but I had real piano lessons including practice on (shoddy) upright pianos as a child.

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Digital pianos are necessary practice tools, but again, no music school will ever offer a digital piano program.

They actually offer lessons on digitals nowadays. Regular piano lessons, not special (digital) ones.

Quote
You can disagree with this, it doesn't matter, it is how it is about the piano, maybe it's not yet the time for you to understand it really

Maybe. Can you tell me something about your background as a pianist or instructor? Level? Repertoire? Just for a better assessment of this opinion.


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