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Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
#2430118 06/09/15 04:16 PM
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How to play the part after the arrow? Specifically, the rhythm of the tremolo... Is this somehow now a cross rhythm?

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430120 06/09/15 04:19 PM
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It's the same as the preceding bars.


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Polyphonist
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430121 06/09/15 04:20 PM
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Why? I have a piano teacher downstairs saying otherwise when I thought what you are saying.

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430122 06/09/15 04:21 PM
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I believe its just short hand for the eight note tremolo that precedes it. I would play it the same way as the three bars before.


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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430123 06/09/15 04:22 PM
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How does the piano teacher think it should go? If the composer wanted something different and/or introduce a cross rhythm they would have written it out.


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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430127 06/09/15 04:40 PM
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This is shorthand for L.H. part in previous bars; done with Sibelius or Finale, and it sounds similar.

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430130 06/09/15 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Why? I have a piano teacher downstairs saying otherwise when I thought what you are saying.

And what does this piano teacher say?


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430132 06/09/15 04:45 PM
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+1, it's a general notation for tremolo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo


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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430139 06/09/15 05:15 PM
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The other teacher is saying that the notation is indicating that the left hand splits away from the right, rhythmically, and is now in duple time, I think. In any case, it is distinct from what came before it, because if it was simply a continuation of the prior three measure tremolo, it would say "sim."

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430141 06/09/15 05:21 PM
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Here is the first line, with its triple beamed tremolo at the beginning, which she cites as evidence that the later figure is to be played differently, as they are not beamed the same:

[Linked Image]

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430144 06/09/15 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
The other teacher is saying that the notation is indicating that the left hand splits away from the right, rhythmically, and is now in duple time, I think. In any case, it is distinct from what came before it, because if it was simply a continuation of the prior three measure tremolo, it would say "sim."


I might buy the duple thing IF the tremolo was written as half notes instead of dotted half notes.

It doesn't have to say "sim" to be a continuation and I really think a continuation is what is implied here and saves writing out notes (as a reason to write it this way). Again, if the composer intended something else I think they would have written it out to make it clear.

In no way would I interpret it as a tremolo going from triple meter to duple. I really don't see where the teacher is getting that.


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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430145 06/09/15 05:32 PM
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Ok, I just interrupted to ask what, exactly she's saying it is telling her to do.

From what I'm gathering, she sees this as FOUR eighth notes per measure in the left hand, against the clear 3/4 time in the right.

?

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 06/09/15 06:16 PM. Reason: correcting the number of notes per measure intended
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430146 06/09/15 05:40 PM
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MY teacher (who is playing primo--this figure is in the secondo and these two teachers are playing this together) is not sure either way now. She would have assumed it was a continuation, too, but the other teacher pointed out the lack of "sim" and that, coupled with the fact that the other teacher is very confident she's correct, has my teacher confused.

As a practical matter, my teacher did point out that it seems out of character for Grieg, as well as out of character for the piece, but she's willing to believe the other teacher knows something she doesn't.

Can anybody figure out why the other teacher would have concluded what she did that would explain where we are? Is there something non-standard about this notation I'm just not noticing?

She says she heard the left hand as she is saying it ought to be in a recording after having googled it when she was practicing it last week (the piece was unfamiliar to her before this week). But she didn't share a link and she's gone home now.

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430148 06/09/15 05:56 PM
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Have I been wrong my whole life on tremolos? Please, somebody explain this one. I would make this a continuation of the prior measure.

[Linked Image]

I would explain the tremolo in the beginning of the Grieg as simply being a FASTER tremolo (maybe I'm thinking too sloppily but I would just go for a low un-timed rumble that dies out over the course of the fermata) as the one at the end, not that the beaming difference somehow indicates a change in rhythm.

I would play the later one (in the Grieg) as a strictly timed eighth note tremolo that supports the building energy of the coda, but soft enough so that it doesn't overtake anything.

Why? I have no idea now, but maybe I'm letting personal interpretation get in the way of reading the music properly.

As for the Beethoven I will wait for an answer but preliminarily I'm reading that as "keep going with alternating eighth notes as established in the prior measure."

(By the way, it's the Beethoven that led me to just assume with the Grieg. Yes, one is dotted, but I just assumed that the dots are just an acknowledgement of the fact that we're in 3/4, but both are essentially saying "keep going, alternate eighth notes, in the rhythm prior established.")

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 06/09/15 06:09 PM.
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430150 06/09/15 06:05 PM
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The difference between the two tremolos in your examples is number of beams. The first one has three beams (to indicate 32nd notes) so you would play enough 32 notes to fill the number of beats in the bar (some artistic freedom may be allowed here I guess).

The tremolo in the next example has only one beam so its 8th notes and you would play enough of them to fill the 3 beats in the bar (= 6 8th notes in total). This matches the written out version preceding it.

Often in waltzes there are hemiolas where the 3 beats to the bar are extended to 3 (2 beats each) over two bars - e.g. standard waltz is 1 - 2 - 3, 1 - 2 - 3 and then hemiola: 1 - 2, 1 - 2, 1 - 2. Its quite possible the other teacher is feeling this and may explain why they think its duple instead of triple. I still think they are wrong and the tremolos in the 2nd example are just a continuation (exactly like what you posted in the Beethoven).

To introduce a cross rhythm in that section would destroy the waltz feel I would think? Wouldn't it also make it that more difficult for both players to coordinate?

Last edited by Vid; 06/09/15 06:07 PM.

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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430153 06/09/15 06:09 PM
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TwoSnowFlakes,

Here's the rule: The baring (eighth notes in your OP) tells you how fast to play. The value of the notehead (dotted half) tells you how long to play them. That it.

So in your first post, it's a full measure of eighth notes, exactly as in the previous measure. There's no ambiguity. The lack of "sim" doesn't mean anything.

In the second Grieg you posted, if those tremolos are triple-barred (it's hard to tell), then it's 32nd notes for the whole measure. So three times as fast as in the first excerpt.

As for the Pathetique, following the rule, it's just eighth notes for the whole measure, exactly as in the measure that's written out.

There are no cross-rhythms in any of these examples!

-J

Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
Polyphonist #2430155 06/09/15 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
It's the same as the preceding bars.


I agree. That's how I have always played it.



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Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
beet31425 #2430158 06/09/15 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425
TwoSnowFlakes,

Here's the rule: The baring (eighth notes in your OP) tells you how fast to play. The value of the notehead (dotted half) tells you how long to play them. That it.

So in your first post, it's a full measure of eighth notes, exactly as in the previous measure. There's no ambiguity. The lack of "sim" doesn't mean anything.

In the second Grieg you posted, if those tremolos are triple-barred (it's hard to tell), then it's 32nd notes for the whole measure. So three times as fast as in the first excerpt.

As for the Pathetique, following the rule, it's just eighth notes for the whole measure, exactly as in the measure that's written out.

There are no cross-rhythms in any of these examples!

-J


Ok, so my inclinations were correct (other than the untimed 32nd note one--I did assume that it was 32nd notes but from an interpretation standpoint I would have defaulted to something untimed). I am just hesitant to correct a teacher unless I'm DEAD TO RIGHTS certain that she is wrong. And this is NOT my teacher, so normally I would let it go, but she's playing with MY teacher and MY teacher is deferring to her because she is significantly older than either one of us and was so incredibly sure of herself, we both sort of doubted.

I'd probably just let this go but the other teacher wants go so far as to point out to the audience, before they perform, this interesting thing she was initially confused by and then figured out, explaining how the notation ultimately indicates a cross rhythm here. If she's wrong, well, that wouldn't be such a great idea. Not only because it's objectively incorrect, but she'd be speaking for my teacher, too, and now she's making TWO teachers wrong. The audience will be a combination of my teacher's students and her own students. They are not affiliated in any way but they get together once every six months to do a joint recital.

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 06/09/15 06:31 PM.
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430160 06/09/15 06:33 PM
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The other teacher is completely wrong.


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Polyphonist
Re: Need a quick answer... how is this to be played?
TwoSnowflakes #2430162 06/09/15 06:36 PM
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So, before I go ahead and make a point of correcting the other teacher, let me just ask one more question:

If, in the rule, you say the notehead indicates the duration, you are also saying that the TWO noteheads under one beam are EACH indicating the SAME duration, yes?

In other words, they are not additive...

If they were, well, then I'm still confused because then the Beethoven has four half notes in one measure and the Grieg has two dotted half notes in one measure.

But if EITHER notehead under any particular beam indicates the duration (sort of a built-in redundancy so it's visually balanced), then it's back to making sense for me.

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