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Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs #2421231
05/16/15 01:43 PM
05/16/15 01:43 PM
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Nahum Offline OP
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As the first book for pupils, I had the songs of the Beatles, and I was very unhappy with the printed piano part. After a while I realized that it was not a part of piano, but the piano score; and it is suitable for arrangements for a large orchestra, but not to perform at the piano alone .At first I just gave to pupil left hand chords and the tune in the right. However, this is completely neutralized the groove of song , which is not less, if not more important than the harmony of song.
Immediately I got the following problem: how to arrange the principle combination of drums and bass on the keyboard, even before the melody. (It was one of my arguments in favor of studying drumming).Gradually appeared approach constant rearrangement of each song - in accordance with the level of pupil, but also in connection with the groove the song.
Your ideas ?

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Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421248
05/16/15 02:28 PM
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In an ideal world, a pop-teacher would be capable of producing convincing arrangements but students take the best they can afford or they take those who they believe are the 'best'. But what can you do when a sub-par teacher knows how to say good things about himself?

Most of those commercially produced piano arrangements are dreadful - I think you know that. It's because of the mode of production, the low price paid for the job and often because the writer is a better scribe than pianist.

Quote
Immediately I got the following problem: how to arrange the principle combination of drums and bass on the keyboard, even before the melody.

Yes, this is often the first problem you have to solve but the guitar might figure as an important component too and the drums might recede as a consideration. A good example (there must be hundreds) is the Beatles' Come Together. No need there to consider drums at all because so much of the groove is characterised by the other instruments. In fact bass is very often an effective proxy for the drums which is yet another reason IMO why the drums can so often be ignored providing we know the sub-division of the beat.

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421265
05/16/15 03:32 PM
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I like this question a lot! Short version would be "Yes"!

Stay clear of classical piano teachers is No. 1. (I teach classical on the side but the real joy is playing pop) Just is ... so a good piano teacher should be able to get the arrangement for you the student. Get a left hand pattern to the song, by checking out "Youtube"! So many amazing arrangements to be found.

Good teachers will ultimately "interview" the student to know exactly what that student wants to play and learn! Then teach them just that!

Also, get students in a band as soon as possible! Play in a church praise team is a great start! Not too early mind you, but it's experience they will need! Puts them under pressure to perform. Just guide them as their teacher. So the succeed!

I love the Beatles "Jazz" versions, are my favourite! Nothing is more attractive to the opposite sex than some high schooler who can play pop music!

Just sayin



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Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421269
05/16/15 03:42 PM
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[video:youttube]https://youtu.be/PkwOXo9yL8s[/video]


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Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: dire tonic] #2421293
05/16/15 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic

Yes, this is often the first problem you have to solve but the guitar might figure as an important component too and the drums might recede as a consideration.
In practice, you can combine guitar kick with snare-drum, only strumming exalts the role of the rhythm guitar.

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Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421427
05/17/15 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
In practice, you can combine guitar kick with snare-drum, only strumming exalts the role of the rhythm guitar.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you please define "guitar kick with snare-drum" and re-phrase "only strumming exalts the role of the rhythm guitar". Maybe you can relate what you're saying to your arrangement?



Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: dire tonic] #2421436
05/17/15 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic

I don't understand what you're saying here.
I apologize for my spoiled English!
If guitar playing a kick on offbeat with snare-drum , then you can content with bass note a octave higher (or power chords) , or interval from chord in the right hand.The guitar part deserves attention if she plays arpeggio or riff - see bars 3-4 in B.

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421438
05/17/15 04:10 AM
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Quote
I apologize for my spoiled English!
If guitar playing a kick on offbeat with snare-drum , then you can content with bass note a octave higher (or power chords) , or interval from chord in the right hand.The guitar part deserves attention if she plays arpeggio or riff - see bars 3-4 in B.

No apology necessary.

Although this looks ok on paper, it's a mistake IMO to assume that simply writing a part for emphasis will produce the emphasis you want. So the octave B and A in B3, while sounding different from the other 1/8 notes in the bar can't provide the impact that a snare drum gives to a groove. At the same time, by adding the octave you've sacrificed the continuity and drive that the guitar alone can achieve. IMO this is an unsuccessful compromise. (Incidentally, for piano and to provide power, I would be an octave lower in the LH for bars B3, B4).

Something is needed at letter 'A' to provide the driving 8's feel that the drum figure demands once the sung verse begins. As written, it's not sufficiently different from the intro.

I guess the A-G grace notes falling to the CD interval are intended as a simulation of the 'percussion' effect? Keeping in mind that it's impossible to score an all-encompassing arrangement for the piano (the piano is versatile but there are some things it cannot do!) I can't see the point in trying to include this. Many of the piano scores we're inclined to criticise fail precisely because the arranger has 'written in', note-for-note, a non-piano figure from the original track in the hope that it might be effectively replicated. It so often fails, sounding gimmicky and lending nothing to the overall effect.

First and foremost, it has to sound good as a piano piece. Trying to achieve the impossible will frustrate that aim.

On the positive side, it looks as though your arrangement is graded to be not too difficult - that's commendable. I wouldn't play it this way but an early intermediate student might be pleased to play it.


Last edited by dire tonic; 05/17/15 05:59 AM.
Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421485
05/17/15 08:22 AM
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It's still not well -baked   version .However, you can compare with the version from here: https://sites.google.com/site/pianopartiture/piano-sheets/pianosheets

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Diane...] #2421498
05/17/15 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Diane...

Nothing is more attractive to the opposite sex than some high schooler who can play pop music!


I play my share of pop music, but now I know what I've been doing wrong: not being a high schooler !

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: dire tonic] #2421554
05/17/15 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic


Although this looks ok on paper, it's a mistake IMO to assume that simply writing a part for emphasis will produce the emphasis you want.
Octave doubling up always sounds louder and sharper, down - thicker.

Quote
So the octave B and A in B3, while sounding different from the other 1/8 notes in the bar can't provide the impact that a snare drum gives to a groove.
It requires a compromise - is written for students, not for professionals .Teachers, remember?

Quote
(Incidentally, for piano and to provide power, I would be an octave lower in the LH for bars B3, B4).
So I wrote the initially, did not like the sound on my computer. Probably it depends on the instrument.


Quote
I guess the A-G grace notes falling to the CD interval are intended as a simulation of the 'percussion' effect? Keeping in mind that it's impossible to score an all-encompassing arrangement for the piano (the piano is versatile but there are some things it cannot do!) I can't see the point in trying to include this. Many of the piano scores we're inclined to criticise fail precisely because the arranger has 'written in', note-for-note, a non-piano figure from the original track in the hope that it might be effectively replicated.
Here's a compromise: the choice between sound and rhythm. Rhythm conquered , then something is left from the groove. Exactly on that, I was not concerned.





Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Hidden son of Teddy Wilson] #2421638
05/17/15 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hidden son of Teddy Wilson
Originally Posted by Diane...

Nothing is more attractive to the opposite sex than some high schooler who can play pop music!


I play my share of pop music, but now I know what I've been doing wrong: not being a high schooler !


hahahahahaha well I teach high school boys and this is what they tell me! smile

https://youtu.be/ZJmbvX7aEUc

Here a piece from a great piano book called beatles jazz style! It has amazing arrangements. I actually have deleted some notes. This book is full of great arrangements of the Beatles music! I still love the "Beatles"! Especially Paul! hahahaha I'd love for him to personally sign my baby grand kawai piano! In my dreams! Anyone know him personally!???



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Diane
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Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421647
05/17/15 04:29 PM
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What a coincidence! I've been seeing those Beatle songs today, but I found him through "Hello" laugh




I want to learn to arrange, Nahum, so I think it is useful even for beginners like me. I probably won't, but I can see the advantages!

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421720
05/17/15 07:59 PM
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I have a Beatles Fakebook that seems to get the essence of their arrangements - accurate chord changes I mean - not orchestrations. But the chord symbol are just a guide. One has to come up with the proper voicing. Being familiar with the Beatles recording of a given song is hugely helpful.


http://www.amazon.com/Beatles-Fake-...mp;sr=8-1&keywords=Beatles+Fake+book

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421920
05/18/15 08:20 AM
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This is my way, and I am sure that it is quite professional and methodical.

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http://www.mediafire.com/listen/7jb1gt5191t1us7/MJ.mp3

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2421992
05/18/15 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dire tonic

Yes, this is often the first problem you have to solve but the guitar might figure as an important component too and the drums might recede as a consideration.
In practice, you can combine guitar kick with snare-drum, only strumming exalts the role of the rhythm guitar.

[Linked Image]


I would take a listen to even the original Beatles version of this tune. The bass line is 1 1 3 5 7 not 1 1 5 7, its a 7th chord arpeggio, flows much better in the left hand and lines up much better with the melody. Maybe piano players should study bass, LOL.


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Jazz, blues, Latin, and a touch of classical and new age.
Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: gracegren] #2422007
05/18/15 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gracegren


I would take a listen to even the original Beatles version of this tune. The bass line is 1 1 3 5 7 not 1 1 5 7, its a 7th chord arpeggio, flows much better in the left hand and lines up much better with the melody. Maybe piano players should study bass, LOL.

gracegren, I hope you don't belong to the transcription police.))
You can imagine what I've heard the same thing as you. However, work with little advanced students require compromises , and I always think of them. Do you have students to check out?

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2422057
05/18/15 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
This is my way, and I am sure that it is quite professional and methodical.

Why not just use your ears? No 'method' is necessary since whatever you do will be a heavy compromise. Just pick out the prominent lines - they are always evident. In Billy Jean you have drum-groove-101 - the most basic beat possible. It doesn't deserve special attention. Hence, of your two arrangements, the second one makes too much concession to the drums and has much less musical value.

Both arrangements suffer once you lose the chord riff Gm,Am,Gm7,Am so I would try and find a way to include some of the riff under the melody.

Originally Posted by gracegren
Maybe piano players should study bass

Yes - I said as much at the beginning of this thread.

Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: dire tonic] #2422091
05/18/15 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic

Why not just use your ears? No 'method' is necessary since whatever you do will be a heavy compromise.


Thank you. And it depends on what one considers a compromise.
I may settle on a key that's not the original key. I may settle on a chord progression that may at first lack passing chords, or melody completely. The version may develop more organically, like the original work. It depends if one considers it a different tune if it's in a difference key. I afford myself a large amount of plasticity, knowing once I have something tangible, I am free to develop it as I see fit. After all, people can work on notated works from minutes to years too.
To answer the top question, a pop/non-classical teacher should not only be able to arrange but to teach arrangement. As they say, "Give a man a fish, he eats once, but teach a man to fish, he never goes hungry."


Rhythm & Chords, it's what I do.
Re: Must a pop piano teacher to be able arrange the songs [Re: Nahum] #2422185
05/18/15 08:07 PM
05/18/15 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by gracegren


I would take a listen to even the original Beatles version of this tune. The bass line is 1 1 3 5 7 not 1 1 5 7, its a 7th chord arpeggio, flows much better in the left hand and lines up much better with the melody. Maybe piano players should study bass, LOL.

gracegren, I hope you don't belong to the transcription police.))
You can imagine what I've heard the same thing as you. However, work with little advanced students require compromises , and I always think of them. Do you have students to check out?


Oh, no, sorry if this was in any way offending. I am not a part of the transcription police. In fact, I am in hiding from them due to lack of effort on my part in participating in what I really know is good for me. No students at the time, just thought a familiar chord arpeggio would make it easier.


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Jazz, blues, Latin, and a touch of classical and new age.
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