Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
54 registered members (Angelos58, Carebear, cathryn999, Beowulf, beeboss, cliowa, Alex C, bennevis, Agent88, 11 invisible), 1,215 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! #2416624
05/03/15 12:45 AM
05/03/15 12:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 276
P
pianoman9 Offline OP
Full Member
pianoman9  Offline OP
Full Member
P

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 276
For some reason, I have always played this with the sustain
pedal, but lo and behold, the sheet music shows absolutely
NO sustain pedal at all!

I think what happened, is that some of the versions I listened to had lots of reverb, natural or otherwise, and the sustain pedal can simulate a heavy reverb, even in a completely "dry"
room.

At any rate, I'm just going to play it my way, with the sustain pedal!

REBEL!!!!

grin

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416695
05/03/15 07:37 AM
05/03/15 07:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,535
UK
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,535
UK
Hem...

Sustain pedaling is rather personal, so, for me, it's not useful to have it notated. My bet is that Chopin himself (or the editor) left the pedal signs out.

It happens a lot you know (just take a closer look to Beethoven's sonatas)...

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416703
05/03/15 07:51 AM
05/03/15 07:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
One must bear in mind that the Pleyel and Erard grands of Chopin's time have poor damping mechanisms, compared to modern pianos (whether uprights or grands), so even when played without pedal, they don't sound dry as dust: the notes 'bleed' into each other, casting a sort of halo around the individual notes or chords.

I've played restored Pleyels and Erards, and it's quite an education - you start to understand about many things in Chopin's and Liszt's (early) piano writing. Rests aren't dead silences, for example - the strings keep vibrating for quite a lot longer after you've lifted your fingers off the keys.

So, we need to bear this in mind when playing their music - not only do the early pianos have poorer sustain but also poorer damping......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416718
05/03/15 08:24 AM
05/03/15 08:24 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,082
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,082
New York City
You're assuming Chopin put pedal indications in his music. Any modern editor would include pedal for this piece unless they thought it was obvious.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416719
05/03/15 08:30 AM
05/03/15 08:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 23
Poland
P
Pulatom Offline
Full Member
Pulatom  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 23
Poland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ-86r6xoK4

In this video Robert Estrin suggests to practice this piece without the pedal first, and that's the way I practiced it for the first couple of days. But I guess it won't work when performing, at least on a modern/digital piano.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416736
05/03/15 09:00 AM
05/03/15 09:00 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,674
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,674
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by pianoman9
For some reason, I have always played this with the sustain
pedal, but lo and behold, the sheet music shows absolutely
NO sustain pedal at all!

I think what happened, is that some of the versions I listened to had lots of reverb, natural or otherwise, and the sustain pedal can simulate a heavy reverb, even in a completely "dry"
room.

At any rate, I'm just going to play it my way, with the sustain pedal!

REBEL!!!!

grin


You are not, sorry to say, a rebel. Common sense, what others have said about the sustain of the piano of Chopin's day plus what musicologists say all indicate that the use of pedal in Chopin is not always dictated in the score. That does not mean that the pedal should not be used.

Eleanor Bailie (p. 39) : "In many of his works Chopin has left detailed pedal indications. In many others, however, he has not. The editor of the Paderewski Edition suggests that 'those passages in which Chopin has not marked the pedalling are generally explained by the fact that the pedalling required is very simple [i.e. would be suggested by obvious changes of harmony]; or on the contrary that it is so subtle as to be too complicated, if not impossible to indicate.'" There is much more that Bailie comments on about historical records of Chopin's continuous and very subtle use of the pedal.

So, you are not rebelling against the score. Using no pedal in this particular Prelude would make quite an unacceptable and disconnected accompaniment.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: Pulatom] #2416787
05/03/15 11:24 AM
05/03/15 11:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 276
P
pianoman9 Offline OP
Full Member
pianoman9  Offline OP
Full Member
P

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 276
Originally Posted by Pulatom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ-86r6xoK4

In this video Robert Estrin suggests to practice this piece without the pedal first, and that's the way I practiced it for the first couple of days. But I guess it won't work when performing, at least on a modern/digital piano.


This video addresses this issue perfectly. Thanks
much for posting.

You'll notice it's far superior with the sustain pedal.

I guess I shouldn't take the score so literally.

And so I'm not a rebel. I would have thought that
an editor would have simply added the sustain pedal
into the music, even if Chopin didn't, just because
it's so obvious that this music needs it. But
clearly this is not the case.

Thanks everyone, for the input.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416798
05/03/15 12:12 PM
05/03/15 12:12 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,586
H
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Hakki  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
H

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,586
Just change the pedal with melody/harmony change and you will be fine.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2416832
05/03/15 01:53 PM
05/03/15 01:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,903
J
joe80 Offline
2000 Post Club Member
joe80  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,903
Chopin did put *some* pedal indications in his music, and the ones he did put in are obviously quite important (if we can still find editions with his original indications in them - even the Ekier edition changes them). It's pretty obvious to all pianists though that having no pedal indication is not necessarily the composer wanting no pedal. If the composer actively wanted no pedal, they would write senza pedale or something similar.

Even in Bach, Handel and Scarlatti (and whatever other baroque composers we may play) it is common and good practice to perform it with carefully applied pedal.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2417562
05/05/15 09:06 PM
05/05/15 09:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,452
Land of the never-ending music
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member
ChopinAddict  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,452
Land of the never-ending music
It would be unwise not to use the pedal on a modern piano. The magic of this piece would be gone.



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2417569
05/05/15 09:36 PM
05/05/15 09:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,394
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,394
Boynton Beach, FL
I generally ignore pedal markings anyways unless it's either a modern piece in which case it could go any way with the pedal, or if I'm not sure as to how I want to pedal it. When in doubt: use your ears and your own musical taste. smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2417586
05/05/15 11:12 PM
05/05/15 11:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,886
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,886
Finland
This piece definitely requires pedal because of the repeated left hand chords. And in most music I think it really is best not to take pedal markings (or lack of them) on scores too seriously. Even pianos and rooms are different, what sounds good with one may not work that well with another. I agree with Morodiene: The key to good pedalling is listening.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2417710
05/06/15 10:51 AM
05/06/15 10:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
I may have read somewhere that during the period of time which covers the composition of this prelude, the sustain pedal of Chopin's piano become dislodged by a student and was thereby stolen to be kept as a personal souvenir as something that had, at one time, been part of Chopin's piano - and hence this composition has the issue of missing sustain pedal notation. Fortunately, or so the story goes, a new pedal was soon purchased and installed on Chopin's piano so that he could resume application of sustain pedal markings for later piano compositions.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: Michael Sayers] #2417711
05/06/15 10:56 AM
05/06/15 10:56 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,082
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,082
New York City
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
I may have read somewhere that during the period of time which covers the composition of this prelude, the sustain pedal of Chopin's piano become dislodged by a student and was thereby stolen to be kept as a personal souvenir as something that had, at one time, been part of Chopin's piano - and hence this composition has the issue of missing sustain pedal notation. Fortunately, or so the story goes, a new pedal was soon purchased and installed on Chopin's piano so that he could resume application of sustain pedal markings for later piano compositions.
Chopin could certainly have figured out the pedal notation for this piece without actually playing it on a piano.

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoloverus] #2417712
05/06/15 10:57 AM
05/06/15 10:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
I may have read somewhere that during the period of time which covers the composition of this prelude, the sustain pedal of Chopin's piano become dislodged by a student and was thereby stolen to be kept as a personal souvenir as something that had, at one time, been part of Chopin's piano - and hence this composition has the issue of missing sustain pedal notation. Fortunately, or so the story goes, a new pedal was soon purchased and installed on Chopin's piano so that he could resume application of sustain pedal markings for later piano compositions.
Chopin could certainly have figured out the pedal notation for this piece without actually playing it on a piano.

Then why didn't he write it in?

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: Michael Sayers] #2417713
05/06/15 11:04 AM
05/06/15 11:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,886
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,886
Finland
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
I may have read somewhere that during the period of time which covers the composition of this prelude, the sustain pedal of Chopin's piano become dislodged by a student and was thereby stolen to be kept as a personal souvenir as something that had, at one time, been part of Chopin's piano - and hence this composition has the issue of missing sustain pedal notation. Fortunately, or so the story goes, a new pedal was soon purchased and installed on Chopin's piano so that he could resume application of sustain pedal markings for later piano compositions.
Chopin could certainly have figured out the pedal notation for this piece without actually playing it on a piano.

Then why didn't he write it in?


Because his pen was broken? grin

Or rather he thought it's so obvious that he just didn't bother...

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: pianoman9] #2417714
05/06/15 11:08 AM
05/06/15 11:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,382
western MA, USA
H
hreichgott Offline
3000 Post Club Member
hreichgott  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
H

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,382
western MA, USA
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious. Or in beginners' books where the students don't know how to make good pedaling choices yet.


Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com

Working on:
Cabaret (whole show)
12+ variations from classical ballets
Verdi: Stabat Mater
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Tangos and other fun music for piano duo

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: hreichgott] #2417726
05/06/15 11:43 AM
05/06/15 11:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious. Or in beginners' books where the students don't know how to make good pedaling choices yet.

[I know . . . I said that I may have read the story somewhere . . . wink ]

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: hreichgott] #2417730
05/06/15 12:02 PM
05/06/15 12:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious.

None of my 100+ opuses have any pedal markings in, though I didn't write them for beginners wink .

But I didn't write them for anyone else to play either.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: bennevis] #2417733
05/06/15 12:08 PM
05/06/15 12:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious.

None of my 100+ opuses have any pedal markings in, though I didn't write them for beginners wink .

But I didn't write them for anyone else to play either.....

Does your piano need a sustain pedal? wink

Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: Michael Sayers] #2417748
05/06/15 12:55 PM
05/06/15 12:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,973
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious.

None of my 100+ opuses have any pedal markings in, though I didn't write them for beginners wink .

But I didn't write them for anyone else to play either.....

Does your piano need a sustain pedal? wink

It does - there're no strings in it...... grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: No Sustain Pedal for Chopin's Prelude in E minor Op28 No4! [Re: bennevis] #2417819
05/06/15 05:12 PM
05/06/15 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Most composers only write in pedal markings if they are non-obvious.

None of my 100+ opuses have any pedal markings in, though I didn't write them for beginners wink .

But I didn't write them for anyone else to play either.....

Does your piano need a sustain pedal? wink

It does - there're no strings in it...... grin

I may have a piano like that, too, somewhere around here. wink


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Success through failure: Thank you ABF
by Zilthy. 11/19/18 11:31 PM
Online lessons for advanced student viable?
by rach3master. 11/19/18 10:25 PM
Black Friday iOS Sales
by IosPlayer. 11/19/18 05:25 PM
Standard piano literature progression
by vetrano. 11/19/18 03:44 PM
Kawai CA87 key action noise in comparison
by Carebear. 11/19/18 02:11 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,423
Posts2,762,768
Members91,525
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2