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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
ElmerJFudd #2416934 05/03/15 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Roland V-Grand
Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TonyB #2416989 05/04/15 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....


Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, HD58X, HD598, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, Presonus Eris E5, iLoud micro monitors, iPad Pro, HP Elite X2, Ivory II ACD, Korg Module for iPad, Vienna Imperial, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro
Re: Is your SSD actually better????
Digitalguy #2417004 05/04/15 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Digitalguy
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....


That is all well and good - except that SSDs still can and do fail. It is not my intention to go into all the testing, the firmware revisions, and all that is involved in what can happen during the life of the media. My point is simply, do the backups. There is no perfect media yet. Threads like this can go on and on as participants try to outdo each other in what they know. I have been around this stuff long enough to not really care about that anymore. I do care that people should not lose data unnecessarily. Despite all the numbers you have shown, and I am not contesting them, but instead saying that the media CAN fail. As long as there is that chance, one would do well to continue doing normal backups.

Tony



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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TonyB #2417035 05/04/15 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by Digitalguy
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....


That is all well and good - except that SSDs still can and do fail. It is not my intention to go into all the testing, the firmware revisions, and all that is involved in what can happen during the life of the media. My point is simply, do the backups. There is no perfect media yet. Threads like this can go on and on as participants try to outdo each other in what they know. I have been around this stuff long enough to not really care about that anymore. I do care that people should not lose data unnecessarily. Despite all the numbers you have shown, and I am not contesting them, but instead saying that the media CAN fail. As long as there is that chance, one would do well to continue doing normal backups.

Tony



Absolutely, anything can fail or simply be lost in a fire or theft, etc. Personally I back all my data (that are however stored in a separate drive) in the cloud (therefore in real time) and my OS drive periodically via a system image.


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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TonyB #2417094 05/04/15 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.


So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.


Jack
Re: Is your SSD actually better????
joflah #2417100 05/04/15 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by joflah
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.


So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.


Not true. In testing and evaluating SSD for commercial critical applications, the test group saw many SSD failures, and no, the data is not recoverable any more than it is with rotating media. Those test were designed to cause the media to fail by pounding on it much harder than would happen in normal use, so I am not hollering that the sky is falling here. But I am refuting claims that these devices are bullet proof.

However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

I won't post on this anymore other than to say that I understand the frustration that luthiers have in the guitar groups regarding claims made by those who are not luthiers, professional working musicians about things said by those who are not involved in that, etc.

As long as people who read this thread get the idea that backups are still necessary, say what you want.

Tony



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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TonyB #2417128 05/04/15 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by joflah
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.

So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.

Not true. In testing and evaluating SSD for commercial critical applications, the test group saw many SSD failures, and no, the data is not recoverable any more than it is with rotating media. Those test were designed to cause the media to fail by pounding on it much harder than would happen in normal use, so I am not hollering that the sky is falling here. But I am refuting claims that these devices are bullet proof.

Nobody said they were. At this stage in history, they are more reliable than mechanical hard drives, period. They are far more reliable than mechanical hard drives in applications that involve mostly reading.
Quote

However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

Who said anything about not backing up? All critical information on my hard drives, on all six computers, is backed up daily, automatically, to an NAS. All non-critical items that aren't backed up daily, such as software pianos, exist on more than one hard drive. The most critical stuff is automatically encrypted and transmitted offsite once per week.
The point of having a more reliable drive is not avoiding backup, but avoiding the inconvenience of stopping work to recover from a failure.
Quote

I won't post on this anymore other than to say that I understand the frustration that luthiers have in the guitar groups regarding claims made by those who are not luthiers, professional working musicians about things said by those who are not involved in that, etc.

So, you're a professional hard drive reliability tester? Is that what you're saying?


Jack
Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TonyB #2417134 05/04/15 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
......
However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

......

As long as people who read this thread get the idea that backups are still necessary, say what you want.



This thread is not about backing up drives. Nobody is disputing the need to back up important data - regardless of the storage drive type. Drive reliability is relevant from an expense and inconvenience point of view, but backing up should be happening in any case, so it doesn't factor into this discussion.

Re: Is your SSD actually better????
joflah #2417153 05/04/15 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by joflah
So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.


HDD do fail much more than SSDs, so 100% agree on this. However SSD can die completely, and be even less recoverable than HDDs at that point. Having said that, in the endurance tests I mentioned above, most of them gave signs of failures many terabytes before they completely failed. So, in most cases, you could recover your data, unless you really wanted to use up your disk till it completely died. Again, if you are an average user, you will probably never see one fail given the very long lifespan, but there are other, more important reasons, to backup anyway (theft, fire, earthquakes, viruses, you name it). If you are a business with intensive daily writing, you will probably use a high end SSD, that will last much more anyway. And you will definitely back-up often.


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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417155 05/04/15 05:08 PM
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Instead of p***ing back and forth, let's recognize that there is no absolute best or worst. It always depends on the use case.

Want to drive fast? Get a Ferrari.
But do you live in New York? In Manhattan traffic a bicycle will outrun a Ferrari!
So it just depends on the situation.

I think it makes more sense to list the benefits of disk drive and SSDs (or of Ferraris and bicycles) ... and then leave it to the user to make a "best choice" for his circumstances.

Here's a start. Not complete by any means. Feel free to add and correct ...

Disk Drives
+ Cheaper per unit of storage
+ Standard issue on existing desktop/laptop computers
+ No write-life limitations
- Prone to crash with advanced age
- Can be noisy

SSD Drives
+ Totally silent
+ Very fast
- More expensive (but wait 'til next year!)
- Write-life limitations (but no read wearout)

Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417287 05/05/15 04:56 AM
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Thanks Mac. For trying to bring back some focus here.

I think mostly, the SSD has become affordable for me. I wanted one when I bought my computer. I couldn't afford it. So I'm jumping on it.

The Disk Drive. ... Even though I'm not having "problems" with my computer. This utility I bought has uncovered problems with my Disk Drive. It is leading toward problems. Probably some lack of performance now. When I bought my computer. This drive was an upgrade to faster. I didn't know how high of quality the drive was in the first place. It is not from apple. I never did believe in it much. Planned to upgrade when I could afford it to a SSD.

This whole experience has me thinking. When I do this, which is very soon. Should I just have them clone the old drive info to the new? Along with the corrupted files, etc? Or should I have them just load the operating system. Then I'll reload my other programs and arrange the drive to work well? I was thinking about doing this and separating the drive into two parts. Put my Ivory and Reaper on one part. With room for expansion. Then everything else on the other part? Or should I just not worry about being anal and just have it cloned?


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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417325 05/05/15 08:25 AM
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If it were me, I would do a clean install of the operating system then reinstall my applications and bring over my files. This is never a bad idea.


Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417395 05/05/15 12:51 PM
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I would clone the drive. There are a number of free utilities that will do the job quickly and easily (Macrium, Easeus, Acronis, and more).

When I needed to grow the storage on my laptop, I replaced the 80 GB drive with a 330 GB drive. The new drive went into a small USB enclosure. Then the cloning software pushed everything onto the new drive in under 20 minutes. After shutting down and swapping in the new, bigger drive, I was up and running.

This is much faster than a full reinstall.

A Windows reload might only take 30 minutes for just Windows. Not too bad. But there's lots more!

It took around six hours just to load the Ivory 1.7 set of ten DVDs. And still more time for Kontakt, Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Kawai EX Pro, New York Grand, The Grandeur, The Gentleman, The Maverick, Galaxy Steinway, Sonivox Harpsichord.

And then all the utilities: MIDI velocity curve, Bomes MIDI Translator, Loop MIDI, Notation Player, and more.

These were originally set up over a period of perhaps two years. But to do that full load in one swoop? PAINFUL!

A disk-to-disk clone operation can accomplish all of that in well under an hour.

Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417399 05/05/15 01:07 PM
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I reckon it's easier said than done to do a clean install with so many programs, Ivory II alone taking six hours to get up. I'm not sure I would not choose a good clone utility, maybe not if I only had Ivory II ACD, MS Office, and the rest just small programs.

That made another thought occur to me. I've been thinking about Ivory II American Concert D, when the time comes for me to get a piano sample, since so many are saying it's the most authentic one, and after having listened to countless demos, I'm inclined to believe it. I know, never judge entirely from Soundcloud, YouTube and such sites, but I still feel I can sense the character of the different VSTs out there from online demos.

However, if I got the ACD, which is on six DVDs, I would like to copy the original discs. Is that at all possible (I would think not, due to fears of piracy?) DVDs are very unreliable as storage holders, so I would feel very uneasy with no extra copies.

Last edited by TheodorN; 05/05/15 01:08 PM.

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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417402 05/05/15 01:25 PM
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Theodor, I think if you have faulty DVD disks, from what I read when I bought Ivory they'll provide a download link as well if you need in case of damaged disks, as long as you have registered product, there isn't that much risk of piracy making such files available since without the ilock and a licence you can't do anything with those files.

I for example could send my DVD disks, you should be able to install from them no problem, but after 3 days it will stop working and not load the samples, so you'd still have to buy a licence, register it on the Synthogy site followed by downloading a licence onto your ilock dongle.


If you want you can also buy Ivory as a full download from http://www.ilio.com/products/synthogy-instruments
and do with the files as you wish, store them on whatever media you so desire for backup.

A much bigger problem/issue is the ilock itself, if it were to go kaput, you have to return it to ilock for repair, but there are ways with ilock to ensure yourself and avoid downtime ( for a small yearly fee ).

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 05/05/15 01:27 PM.

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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417463 05/05/15 04:51 PM
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Thank you Alexander, good to know. I'm rather inclined to get the VST from a local store on disks, the price difference is minimal, and I'd have the convenience that comes with (or should come with) buying locally, in case something goes wrong.

Besides, such a big download poses some problems for me, what internet connection regards, so I'm glad if having the thing on DVDs is not a hindrance. I am very careful with DVD disks generally, anyway.

Last edited by TheodorN; 05/05/15 04:59 PM.

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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417623 05/06/15 03:26 AM
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Once you go from 5400 to 7200 you will be kicking yourself why you did not do this sooner. If you go back to a system with a 5400 in it it will seem slow. You notice it.

One you go SSD though there is no going back. Everything, literally, is just faster. As far as the wear life as someone pointed out prior you have to be writing like something like 10GB per day and then your drive will last 10 years (depends on brand and model).

I am not a Mac guy, but I hear the new models have a new interface in them that is not SATA3 but better. SATA was built with spinning drives in mind. The newer interface used in the new Macs are built with SSDs in mind and are supposed to push the limits even further.

Anyway once you get an SSD you will have no regrets.

Re: Is your SSD actually better????
TheodorN #2417633 05/06/15 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
I reckon it's easier said than done to do a clean install with so many programs, Ivory II alone taking six hours to get up. I'm not sure I would not choose a good clone utility, maybe not if I only had Ivory II ACD, MS Office, and the rest just small programs.

That made another thought occur to me. I've been thinking about Ivory II American Concert D, when the time comes for me to get a piano sample, since so many are saying it's the most authentic one, and after having listened to countless demos, I'm inclined to believe it. I know, never judge entirely from Soundcloud, YouTube and such sites, but I still feel I can sense the character of the different VSTs out there from online demos.

However, if I got the ACD, which is on six DVDs, I would like to copy the original discs. Is that at all possible (I would think not, due to fears of piracy?) DVDs are very unreliable as storage holders, so I would feel very uneasy with no extra copies.


Theodor, just to be clear: the DVDs are not protected in any way. So you can copy them. Better, like I did, you can create iso versions of them, so you don't need the physical ones anymore. And, once you install Ivory, you can copy the data files, so that, for future installations, you only need the first DVD and can copy and paste the library. Nothing works without ilok. The old Ivory I have a 5 days grace period, Ivory II has no grace period at all as far as I remember, so you cannot even try it without ilok...


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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
theoak #2417634 05/06/15 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by theoak
Once you go from 5400 to 7200 you will be kicking yourself why you did not do this sooner. If you go back to a system with a 5400 in it it will seem slow. You notice it.

One you go SSD though there is no going back. Everything, literally, is just faster. As far as the wear life as someone pointed out prior you have to be writing like something like 10GB per day and then your drive will last 10 years (depends on brand and model).

I am not a Mac guy, but I hear the new models have a new interface in them that is not SATA3 but better. SATA was built with spinning drives in mind. The newer interface used in the new Macs are built with SSDs in mind and are supposed to push the limits even further.

Anyway once you get an SSD you will have no regrets.


Moving to 7200 for me changed very little, only when moving large files.... The so-called random speed is almost the same... Changing to SSD changes everything and yes there is no going back. The most cost effective solution today is to have small to medium sized ssd for the system and and larger HDD for data. I for instance have a 256 GB ssd and a 1TB HHD (plus a 3rd SSD for pianos, as well as a 256 GB SSD pen drive for pianos "on the go").
Sata3 and USB 3.0 are becoming bottlenecks for SSDs. The new PCIe interface and USB 3.1 are the future. PCIe is already here, including for windows, but the speed varies from just a bit over Sata3 to 4-5 times more, and will increase in the future...
Having said that, that's very little for now compared to the move from HHD to SSD, which can be 50x faster in random speed, which is what matters most....


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Re: Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple #2417648 05/06/15 07:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,649
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,649
Thanks Digitalguy, always great info that you give. I know about iLok, and that there is no escaping it for those who want any of the Ivory II pianos. What you said about the DVD disks and the files, is exactly what I would do in case I get the American Concert D. Copy the files to a folder on at least one hard disk, other than the one on which it will be run.

Always nice to know one has a copy, if one's computer would break down, and some trouble arises when trying to read from the original disks again. Maybe not likely that both things will happen at the same time, unless Murphy's law applies. cool


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