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Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? #2414219
04/26/15 03:20 PM
04/26/15 03:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 2
W
Wippen Offline OP
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Wippen  Offline OP
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W

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 2
Hi there,
I started learning Rachmaninoff's Prelude 10 from Op. 32 about two weeks ago. It's quite comfortable to play, but the fingering of the cadenza keeps bothering me to no end.

I have found multiple fingerings, but I can't find a comfortable one.
These are the ones I found:
2-3-5-1-2-3-1-2-3-5-3-2-5-2-1-3-2-1 (given in the sheet)
When I play this fingering, I always 'loose' the lower F sharp because of the weird twisting I have to do in order to get my middle finger on the b. I can play it ok with it and can get up to speed but it feels ... wrong, hard to explain it.
2-1-2-1-2-3-1-2-3-5-3-2-5-2-1-3-2-1
This is way more comfortable than the first one, but I can't get it up to speed, because of the crossing over of my index finger.
1-2-5-1-2-3-1-2-3-5-3-2-5-2-1-5-4-2
Valentina Lisitsa uses this, as far as I can tell from the videos.

I'm not really sure what fingering to use. So, What did/would you use?
Thanks, F. smile

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Flo S; 04/26/15 03:34 PM.

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
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Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414220
04/26/15 03:30 PM
04/26/15 03:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
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Polyphonist  Offline
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P

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
I use 124123123532421542.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414273
04/26/15 05:39 PM
04/26/15 05:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
Bay Area, CA
beet31425 Offline
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beet31425  Offline
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Bay Area, CA
I used a pretty unconventional fingering that you might have fun playing with.

125 123 (231) (412) 521 3121

I found hitting the high F# with 5 stretchy for me, but most people don't have a problem with it. So you might want to do something more conventional for the parts I marked in parentheses, like:

125 123 (123) (532) 521 3121

But what I really like about this fingering is how it handles the last few notes (the 3121) before the pattern repeats.

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414534
04/27/15 11:41 AM
04/27/15 11:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 717
Virginia
Emanuel Ravelli Offline
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Emanuel Ravelli  Offline
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Virginia
My hands are relatively small for Rachmaninoff (a ninth comfortably, a tenth if I stretch), so I had the same problem with crossing the index finger to reach the low F#. To solve that problem, I start by using my thumb on that key. Going up, it’s much easier than 2. Coming down, I have to skip my thumb from the low B back to F#. It sounds awkward, but it’s easier for me to make the quick sideways jump than to twist my wrist twice in succession to use 2. So I use a variant of Lisitsa’s fingering, with modifications (shown in bold italics) to compensate for her much longer fingers:

125123124 521521431 1


Phil Bjorlo
Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414604
04/27/15 02:57 PM
04/27/15 02:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 348
Europe
V
vevurka Offline
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vevurka  Offline
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V

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 348
Europe

I've really small hands (barely 9) - I use 215 123 212521 532 321. This passage had been very problematic for me before I worked out this fingering.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414645
04/27/15 04:31 PM
04/27/15 04:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
ME, USA
JRA Offline
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JRA  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
ME, USA
I use 2-1-2-1-2-3-1-2-3-5-3-2-3-2-1-3-2-1.
Almost everything's directly under your fingers (except the hi&lo F sharps). The only tricky part is the 2nd finger cross-over and back to the F sharp; that takes some practice.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2414733
04/27/15 08:42 PM
04/27/15 08:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
W
wr Offline
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wr  Offline
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W

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Originally Posted by Wippen

These are the ones I found:
2-3-5-1-2-3-1-2-3-5-3-2-5-2-1-3-2-1 (given in the sheet)
When I play this fingering, I always 'loose' the lower F sharp because of the weird twisting I have to do in order to get my middle finger on the b. I can play it ok with it and can get up to speed but it feels ... wrong, hard to explain it.


I've found that in general, it is worthwhile to try to follow Rachmaninoff's fingering, such as the one given here. To me, they are like getting a lesson in piano playing from a master. It's interesting how, over time, they can teach you why he chose to provide them. Even if they don't seem to be practical at first, I only change them if they prove unworkable after a long time, which seldom happens.


Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2415042
04/28/15 05:15 PM
04/28/15 05:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 3
F
franklincd Offline
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franklincd  Offline
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F

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 3
I use the fingering show in that excerpt. It is very comfortable, and I do not have particularly large hands. For me this fingering is the most even, and the fastest.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2415118
04/28/15 09:29 PM
04/28/15 09:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,665
Opus_Maximus Offline
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Opus_Maximus  Offline
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Some people take some of the Descending RH notes with the LH...not at a piano so I can't try it out exactly but I know a redistribution is possible somewhere here.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Opus_Maximus] #2415420
04/29/15 04:52 PM
04/29/15 04:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 2
W
Wippen Offline OP
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Wippen  Offline OP
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W

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 2
Thanks for everybody's help! I'm using 124 123 1235 324 21 542 now. I can get it up to speed and it feels fairly comfortable.

Originally Posted by wr

I've found that in general, it is worthwhile to try to follow Rachmaninoff's fingering, such as the one given here. To me, they are like getting a lesson in piano playing from a master. It's interesting how, over time, they can teach you why he chose to provide them. Even if they don't seem to be practical at first, I only change them if they prove unworkable after a long time, which seldom happens.


I think you should use what is most comfortable to you, as long as it produces the sound you want. Rachmaninoff, as you probably know, had incredibly long fingers, so I wouldn't rely on his fingerings too much. Of course, if it works for you, that's great!


"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2415435
04/29/15 06:05 PM
04/29/15 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
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wr Offline
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wr  Offline
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W

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Originally Posted by Wippen

Originally Posted by wr

I've found that in general, it is worthwhile to try to follow Rachmaninoff's fingering, such as the one given here. To me, they are like getting a lesson in piano playing from a master. It's interesting how, over time, they can teach you why he chose to provide them. Even if they don't seem to be practical at first, I only change them if they prove unworkable after a long time, which seldom happens.


I think you should use what is most comfortable to you, as long as it produces the sound you want. Rachmaninoff, as you probably know, had incredibly long fingers, so I wouldn't rely on his fingerings too much. Of course, if it works for you, that's great!


The fingerings that Rachmaninoff gave were not specific to his own hands. That would be rather stupid, since his hands were unusual, and I am sure he was quite aware of it (the vast majority of his music is playable as written by people with average hands, after all - it's not written for his hands alone). My own hands aren't nearly as large as his were, and I don't think I've ever come across a fingering of his that can't work for my own hand, although once in a great while I'll choose not to use his.

I like getting fingering ideas from him. Even if they may sometimes seem awkward at first, I've found they are worth learning, if for no other reason than that they expand my thinking about fingering and extend my capabilities. But maybe that's just me...


Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: wr] #2415585
04/30/15 06:30 AM
04/30/15 06:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 348
Europe
V
vevurka Offline
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vevurka  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 348
Europe

Maybe Rachmaninoff's fingering is not specific for his unusual hands, but still these finger numbers aren't good for people with so small hands like me - playing 235 on F# B F# is really awkward in fast tempo for someone who can't easily strech even seventh with 2 and 5.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: vevurka] #2415603
04/30/15 08:01 AM
04/30/15 08:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
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wr Offline
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wr  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by verqueue

Maybe Rachmaninoff's fingering is not specific for his unusual hands, but still these finger numbers aren't good for people with so small hands like me - playing 235 on F# B F# is really awkward in fast tempo for someone who can't easily strech even seventh with 2 and 5.


Is it possible that it would get less awkward with practice? Sort of in the way Chopin's op. 10, no. 1 does?

Of course, if it just won't work, then it won't.

I haven't worked on that passage very much, so I don't have a clear idea of why R. chose that fingering. It's certainly not one I would think to use on my own, which makes it intriguing. What was he thinking?


Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: wr] #2415608
04/30/15 08:18 AM
04/30/15 08:18 AM
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Posts: 348
Europe
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vevurka Offline
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 348
Europe
Originally Posted by wr
Is it possible that it would get less awkward with practice? Sort of in the way Chopin's op. 10, no. 1 does?


I'm able to play Chopin's op. 10 no 1 using Chopin's fingering and I find it pretty comfortable. With proper wrist movement these passages aren't so wide. In Rach there is a different pattern and it's harder for me to use similar wrist rotation as in op. 10 no 1.


I think Rach's fingering is comfortable for those who can put their fingers on right keys without a stretch. If intervals were less wide in this passage I would use his fingering probably.

Re: Comfortable fingering in Rachmaninoff's Op.32 No.10? [Re: Wippen] #2415609
04/30/15 08:25 AM
04/30/15 08:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
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jeffreyjones Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
In order to better accommodate the hairpin crescendo, and avoid any chance of strain, you could try this fingering, which may however require some extra practice for smoothness in transitions:

125 12323 1521 521 5421

[modified to reduce movement, since F# - B - F# shouldn't be a problem for most to stretch]


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

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