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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413915
04/25/15 02:01 PM
04/25/15 02:01 PM
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EssBrace Offline
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We don't know if the notch hinders performance because we've never heard a grand piano played that doesn't have the notch.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: EssBrace] #2413920
04/25/15 02:10 PM
04/25/15 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
We don't know if the notch hinders performance because we've never heard a grand piano played that doesn't have the notch.


But we have seen DPs have the notch, and not have the notch. Does anyone actually believe it hurt their performing skills when the notch appeared?

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413921
04/25/15 02:13 PM
04/25/15 02:13 PM
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EssBrace Offline
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You may be right. But the kind of nuanced difference we are talking about is probably beyond the relatively coarse resolution of a DP to make any difference. To my mind it is counter-intuitive to suggest that the better action wouldn't be entirely smooth and linear all the way down.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413925
04/25/15 02:16 PM
04/25/15 02:16 PM
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Ando, maybe you are right, and I'm prone to exaggeration - or at least excessive endorsements.

You see, Essbrace and I argued from differing standpoints at first and then (I think) came to pretty much an agreement about the whole thing. It was a bit of a relief to be honest - hence the possibly exaggerated agreement.

But I still say it's a bauble of a problem. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, of course. Per se.


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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: toddy] #2413929
04/25/15 02:22 PM
04/25/15 02:22 PM
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EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy
You see, Essbrace and I argued from differing standpoints at first and then (I think) came to pretty much an agreement about the whole thing.


I think we did. And it gave me a warm feeling!


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: EssBrace] #2413939
04/25/15 02:48 PM
04/25/15 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Are we missing the point though? The feeling of the escapement is an unavoidable (and undesirable) consequence of the grand piano action. It's a necessary evil. If there was a way to incorporate the same mechanical characteristics such as the very fast repetition possible with a grand piano action but eliminate the little click/notch that's exactly what someone would do.


That little click which is only felt when depressing a key very slowly is not the only thing that defines the feel of a real escapement. The most important feature for me, as I said before, is the decrease in the resistance of the key to the finger that occurs just after the let-off point. This decrease in resistance is present all all dynamic levels.

In all the digital actions I have tried, there is no decrease in resistance to the finger after the let-off point: you never get that feeling of having thrown the hammer at the string. In the terminology of acoustic pianos, the distance traveled by the key from the let-off point to the key bed is called "aftertouch" (not to be confused with "aftertouch" on a digital keyboard). Changing the depth of the aftertouch can make a considerable difference to the feel of an acoustic action (see for instance this thread).


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413948
04/25/15 03:18 PM
04/25/15 03:18 PM
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Bottom line:

My opinion is that I could really care less either way as to whether or not Yamaha will end up adding a simulated "playing off of the jack" feature into their Clavinova line as I certainly will never make use of it.

Have found that Yamaha has been inconsistent with their product features when the CLP-990M is the only Clavinova that ever had this "playing off of the jack" feature and even so it is only a simulation and doesn't even come close to what an acoustic can do.

The CLP-585's escapement is barely noticeable which for me is okay as I have only pointed out to Yamaha that they haven't done enough to make this feature realistic in actual playing qualifications.

I actually happened to prefer the smooth stroke better (without escapement simulation) on the previous CLP-480 as the click-feel is simply pointless, otherwise.

Current sounds on the CLP-585 are so-so compared with the CLP-480 and one can now hear three new recordings here if anyone is interested:

Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings

Appears that no one gives a rat's *** in regards to the recordings posted from the new CLP-585 so take a listen and post some ******* comments.

Everyone must be playing their cheap (and soon to end up in a land fill) $500 digitals.

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413959
04/25/15 03:42 PM
04/25/15 03:42 PM
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I don't buy the claim that the escapement is an "undesirable" artifact that we just can't get out of grand piano actions, for at least two reasons.

First (and most importantly), it's a reference point. It's like the little bump on the F and J keys on your keyboard which let you know where your fingers are placed without having to look, or the notch in the middle of the ribbon pitch bend on a Motif or Roland AX Synth, or the notch right in the center on old stereo hi-fi system knobs: it let's the user very precisely know where a very important milestone is. I am by no means an expert concert pianist, but if expert concert pianists really do use the feeling of the let-off point to perform certain notes a particular way, then why on earth would anyone want to call it undesirable, let alone change it? The proof that it isn't undesirable is in the very definition of the word, as it sounds to me as if a good number of concert pianists really do desire it very much!

Second, if it were truly undesirable, then surely someone would have tried to eliminate it by now. In 2015 I am certain that if a piano manufacturer really wanted to redesign the action to eliminate the let-off feel while maintaining the rest of the functionality, they could have - but nobody's tried. Instrument manufacturers have over the years introduced a variety of technological updates to instruments which either became the standard or at least a common option, like the duplex scale. If this was really a desirable quality, surely Steinway or Yamaha or any number of other manufacturers would have had some marketing to advertise "same grand piano action, no let-off feel!" But they haven't.

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2413988
04/25/15 06:04 PM
04/25/15 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pv88
Appears that no one gives a rat's *** in regards to the recordings posted from the new CLP-585 so take a listen and post some ******* comments.

Everyone must be playing their cheap (and soon to end up in a land fill) $500 digitals.


Here's a ******* comment:

I prefer the CLP-990. I'm not 100% sure but I believe you may own a CLP-990?


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: EssBrace] #2413994
04/25/15 06:24 PM
04/25/15 06:24 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by pv88
My opinion is that I could really care less either way as to whether or not Yamaha will end up adding a simulated "playing off of the jack" feature into their Clavinova line as I certainly will never make use of it.


Then why go to the trouble of starting this thread, or contacting Yamaha to report the 'problem'?
Also, this.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I prefer the CLP-990. I'm not 100% sure but I believe you may own a CLP-990?


No Steve, I believe he sold the CLP-990 to buy the CA95.

Cheers,
James
x


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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: Kawai James] #2413996
04/25/15 06:28 PM
04/25/15 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
No Steve, I believe he sold the CLP-990 to buy the CA95.

Cheers,
James
x


Oh yes, that's right. If I remember correctly the advantage of the CA-95 was that all possible maintenance and adjustments could be carried out by a technician using one single tool. The Swiss Army Knife of the digital piano world you could say.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: Lazerlike42] #2414008
04/25/15 07:42 PM
04/25/15 07:42 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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How do you know no one has tried?
Originally Posted by Lazerlike42
If it were truly undesirable, then surely someone would have tried to eliminate it by now.

Anyway, how could it be eliminated?

Before letoff, the hammer is part of the mechanical load. The key, capstan, wippen, jack, and hammer are all part of that load.

After letoff, the hammer is no longer part of the load.

So if the mechanical load changes, how could you possibly eliminate the sensation? You cannot!

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2414014
04/25/15 08:41 PM
04/25/15 08:41 PM
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As we have discussed here before, Steingraeber have indeed designed an action that eliminates (or almost eliminates) the escapement notch - they have an option on some of their models that uses roller knuckles. However, not everyone likes it.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 04/25/15 09:03 PM.

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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: Kawai James] #2414028
04/25/15 09:52 PM
04/25/15 09:52 PM
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@James,

Are you reading my posts?

What you told Steve above is not correct as I never sold my CLP-990M.

Have previously mentioned in this forum that I would never be selling or trading in the CLP-990M considering all the trouble I went through to locate one and have it shipped via long distance at high cost.

Again, here is the list:

1) Traded in the Casio AP-620 (and a Wurlitzer spinet) for the Kawai CA95.

2) Traded in the CA95 for the Clavinova CLP-480.

3) Traded in the CLP-480 for the CLP-585.

I now have:

1) Roland V-Piano
2) Clavinova CLP-990M
3) Clavinova CLP-585B
4) Kawai EP3

The only piano I have swapped in a trade is the Clavinova CLP-480R for the CLP-585B.

Hope this helps to clarify everything.

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: EssBrace] #2414035
04/25/15 10:32 PM
04/25/15 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Kawai James
No Steve, I believe he sold the CLP-990 to buy the CA95.

Cheers,
James
x


Oh yes, that's right. If I remember correctly the advantage of the CA-95 was that all possible maintenance and adjustments could be carried out by a technician using one single tool. The Swiss Army Knife of the digital piano world you could say.


@Steve,

James statement above is incorrect. As I will never be selling or trading the CLP-990M:

1) Traded the Casio AP-620 (as it had pedal/resonance issues) plus a Wurlitzer spinet for the Kawai CA95.

2) Traded the Kawai CA95 for the CLP-480.

3) Traded the CLP-480 for the CLP-585.

As for the two new presets in the CLP-585 (CFX & Bosendorfer) listen to the comparison, here:

(Also, by request added an "Upright" recording)

Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings

New "Bosendorfer" recording, here:

Bosendorfer preset with default settings

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2414078
04/26/15 02:29 AM
04/26/15 02:29 AM
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Okay, thanks Richard for explaining.

By the way I haven't listened with good headphones yet but my first impression is that the Bosendorfer sample is richer and more to my taste than CFX.

And James, I'm disappionted that you misinformed me about Richard's piano trading. To be fair to him I do now recall that he has stated once or twice recently that he has retained the CLP-990. Perhaps we should both brush up on our reading skills.

Cheers,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: EssBrace] #2414084
04/26/15 02:57 AM
04/26/15 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
By the way I haven't listened with good headphones yet but my first impression is that the Bosendorfer sample is richer and more to my taste than CFX.


Steve,

Thanks for your reply as I do have to agree that the Bosendorfer preset is quickly becoming a favorite as it does have a rather rich and unique quality to it. Have been doing the recordings with my Sennheiser HD-518 headphones (@ $130) and this is when the sound really shines.

The CFX has a sharper and more defined edge but is equally alluring if you wish to coax a really big sound from it, as it is quite impressive also.

The CLP-585B turned out to be a great value this time especially when the price was further discounted with my CLP-480 trade in. Have posted this info in the "Prices Paid" section:

Digital Piano "Prices Paid"

Now that was a very good buy, indeed!

Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: pv88] #2414088
04/26/15 03:22 AM
04/26/15 03:22 AM
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"Appears that no one gives a rat's *** in regards to the recordings posted from the new CLP-585 so take a listen and post some ******* comments.

Everyone must be playing their cheap (and soon to end up in a land fill) $500 digitals."

Ha ha! Got to hand it to ya. We`ll get round to listening, but - the work must come first! And that last comment . . . .unbelievable!1 But darned funny!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Clavinova's escapement simulation [Re: MRC] #2414243
04/26/15 03:38 PM
04/26/15 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MRC
That little click which is only felt when depressing a key very slowly is not the only thing that defines the feel of a real escapement. The most important feature for me, as I said before, is the decrease in the resistance of the key to the finger that occurs just after the let-off point. This decrease in resistance is present at all dynamic levels.

In all the digital actions I have tried, there is no decrease in resistance to the finger after the let-off point: you never get that feeling of having thrown the hammer at the string. In the terminology of acoustic pianos, the distance traveled by the key from the let-off point to the key bed is called "aftertouch" (not to be confused with "aftertouch" on a digital keyboard). Changing the depth of the aftertouch can make a considerable difference to the feel of an acoustic action (see for instance this thread)


@MRC,

I believe you have highlighted the most important aspect of "playing off the jack" which is the "aftertouch" on an acoustic and this is something that isn't possible to do on most DP's today although my Roland V-Piano can simulate this to a certain extent. I also should be able to assume that the Roland V-Piano Grand can do the same.

An attempt was made by Yamaha back in 2001 with the Clavinova CLP-990M as it can produce a tone from the "escapement point" or "aftertouch" although it does not replicate this feature with any degree of dynamic subtlety (from the softest tone to a slightly louder tone) as it tends to sound the note at only one level. I own the CLP-990M and can attest to the simulation.

The V-Piano can do this "aftertouch" simulation a little better when the volume is set relatively high (and one is listening through a good pair of headphones) as the player can produce a slight or small range of nuance from "pp" to "mp" for a key set in motion from the actual escapement point.

So, it would appear that higher end DP's have a way to go to get this "aftertouch" feature to behave more like an acoustic and this is the detail I have brought to the attention of Yamaha with the Clavinova models.

In the meanwhile the playability of the CLP-585 is very good and the new samples are quite impressive, therefore the escapement simulation is not going to be a factor for most player's enjoyment.

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