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Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2407988
04/08/15 12:40 PM
04/08/15 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Oh, you must be using a FFT. Which one?

I use custom partial detection software, not really FFT. It was tested against prout's data set and analysis method a while ago and I think it's very reliable.

Files I used were kawai-a3-08.mp3 and kawai-a4.mp3.

Kees

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Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: DoelKees] #2408068
04/08/15 04:32 PM
04/08/15 04:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,585
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
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Chris Leslie  Offline
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C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,585
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Oh, you must be using a FFT. Which one?

I use custom partial detection software, not really FFT. It was tested against prout's data set and analysis method a while ago and I think it's very reliable.

Files I used were kawai-a3-08.mp3 and kawai-a4.mp3.

Kees


Kees, I am interested in how your custom partial detection software works. The partial detection software I publish here a few weeks ago also attemps a method not based on FFT but does produce a frequency spectrum by phase detection methods. This has been my ongoing project.

Could you PM me with your reply?


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Chris Leslie] #2408076
04/08/15 04:45 PM
04/08/15 04:45 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Oh, you must be using a FFT. Which one?

I use custom partial detection software, not really FFT. It was tested against prout's data set and analysis method a while ago and I think it's very reliable.

Files I used were kawai-a3-08.mp3 and kawai-a4.mp3.

Kees


Kees, I am interested in how your custom partial detection software works. The partial detection software I publish here a few weeks ago also attemps a method not based on FFT but does produce a frequency spectrum by phase detection methods. This has been my ongoing project.

Could you PM me with your reply?

This has been discussed here several times in the past. Search pianoworld for "http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~kvdoel/publications/pres.16.6.pdf" and you'll see the threads.

Kees

Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2408077
04/08/15 04:49 PM
04/08/15 04:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,585
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
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Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,585
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Thanks. I'll see what I can understand from that.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
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Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Chris Leslie] #2408152
04/08/15 08:40 PM
04/08/15 08:40 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Thanks. I'll see what I can understand from that.

We can take it offline if you want to know more. My email is my profile (My PM are turned off).

Kees

Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2408187
04/08/15 10:33 PM
04/08/15 10:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Mark Cerisano  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Kees,

I am not crazy about using frequency detecting methods because I want to focus on using technology to help us tune better by ear. Frequency measuring software is counter productive because my ear will never be able to measure 440hz, but it can hear and compare beat speeds up to a point. That's why I prefer the filtering and counting beats technique.

But more to the point, JavaScript numbers arrays from zero and I did not advance the counter before displaying it. That means the octave you choose is a3-09. Try that. I think we should get better numbers with that.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 04/08/15 10:48 PM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2408196
04/08/15 11:13 PM
04/08/15 11:13 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Kees,

I am not crazy about using frequency detecting methods because I want to focus on using technology to help us tune better by ear. Frequency measuring software is counter productive because my ear will never be able to measure 440hz, but it can hear and compare beat speeds up to a point. That's why I prefer the filtering and counting beats technique.

But more to the point, JavaScript numbers arrays from zero and I did not advance the counter before displaying it. That means the octave you choose is a3-09. Try that. I think we should get better numbers with that.

That solves the discrepancy. For a3-9 I get 4:2 bps 0.13 and 6:3 1bps, 0.25 cent and 1.25 cent which is close enough to what you got.

You may not be crazy about measuring frequencies but if you can measure them you'll also know the beat rates. I agree if all you have is a (recording of) an interval the best method is to measure beat rates directly. This is definitely more accurate and ties in better with aural techniques.

Glad we solved this problem.

Kees

Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2408263
04/09/15 03:54 AM
04/09/15 03:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 627
Denmark
pinkfloydhomer Offline
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pinkfloydhomer  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 627
Denmark
I have not read the whole thread, but I guess it would be important to have data not just for large grand pianos but also for smaller grands and uprights.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2409086
04/11/15 05:23 AM
04/11/15 05:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,073
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wouter79 Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,073
Mark

>http://howtotunepianos.com/octave-tuning-app/

I'm not a tuner

I prefer 6 or 7

Between 5 and 13 (maybe 15) sound 'ok' to me

I'm surprised how little tolerance there is between the "good" (6-7) and the "lower bound" (5) while there seems much more tolerance towards the upper bound 13

bad ---- ok - good ------ ok ----------- mmm ---- bad
1 2 3 4 - 5 -- 6 7 -- 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

BTW I hear a disturbing 'crack' at the start of the sound, like clipping. Maybe your samples are a bit clipped?




[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: Help with best octave sizes [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2409547
04/12/15 04:00 PM
04/12/15 04:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
The clipping is the sound of the key being hit. I choose to keep it in.

Thanks for taking the test.

I assumed since Audacity did a simple percent alteration to the original waveform, that each A3 would be changed by a constant amount. Turns out that may not be true. From preliminary measurements, the octaves are not uniformly changing in size. More work to be done. 15 was the original octave tuned by myself by ear.

You should definitely hear a rolling in the 4:2 and 6:3 partials in the lower octaves, 6 and 7 especially. Have a listen again and focus your ear on A4 and E6.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 04/12/15 04:01 PM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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