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DAWs
#2409518 04/12/15 02:26 PM
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For those who didn't see my other thread, I'm looking at buying a DP but my budget is relatively modest, which of course means I'm limited in what abilities I can get with it, which I've been struggling with...

Then I learned of the wide world of DAWs which appear to be able to negate most of those limitations. I'm still reading/learning about them, but appreciate any general info or advice, and just thought it would be good to have a general thread for discussion about them (didn't see one anyway, pardon if I missed).

I know Audacity is a popular free one. I actually have that already, though I wasn't using it in that way...plan to start tinkering a bit with some music files I already have.

Again general info or thoughts to get familiar with them and/or links appreciated (I've browsed some and will continue but someone might know a good one).

Last edited by bill5; 04/12/15 02:27 PM.
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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409522 04/12/15 02:53 PM
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Bill,

This a bit open-ended. How do you define "DAW"? What do you expect to get out of a DAW? What will you be using it for?

I have...

- Three virtual piano software packages and one virtual orchestra software package. (But I don't define them as DAWs.)

- A computer hooked to my MP11 which could be considered a DAW system that uses the piano and orchestral software.

- A separate DAW system with composition (Sibelius) and DAW software that I use for editing scores. I'm considering adding a MIDI controller keyboard to this system.

Some folks might define each of these as a "DAW" or maybe none of them. I don't think there is any right or wrong answer - it's just what suits your needs.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. I'm still very much a newbie with all of this, but the learning process is fun and satisfying.

p.p.s. [edit] For DAW software, I use Reaper (mostly for MIDI editing) and am learning FL Studio. Each has pluses and minutes. To start, consider Reaper - it's good software and very inexpensive ($60). Reaper site: http://www.reaper.fm/index.php . You can evaluate Reaper for 60 days for free. The eval version is full function with no limitations. Download site: http://www.reaper.fm/download.php .

Last edited by Dan Clark; 04/12/15 03:16 PM.
Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409524 04/12/15 02:56 PM
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This is a very big subject, and it's a good idea to have a thread about it. In the first place, Audacity, which is an excellent piece of sound recording freeware, is not really a DAW as it does not deal with MIDI, nor does it have full mixing and routing facilities. Basically Audacity is a digital recorder capable of multi-tracking as many tracks as you want. It has a few effects and facilities which are very useful. Had something like it been available as an analogue machine pre-digital, it would have cost the price of a house. Now it's totally free.

However, DAWs go much further and cost between about 50 dollars and $1000. They are full recording studio facilities, which started off, in the 80's as digital MIDI sequencers. So MIDI recording (along with straight audio or sampling) is still a basic with DAWs - it allows much greater flexibility in the recording process than recording straight away 'to tape' as it were.

The most famous are probably:

Steinberg Cubase (who invented the rolling graphic matrix system, still used today).

Ableton Live - one of the most innovative.

Logic, which is the system exclusive to Apple Mac computers (Garage Band is their beginner's freeby)

Reaper - a relatively new system. Extremely flexible working patterns, open ended. V cheap.

Pro-Tools - the industry standard (though I don't know why it is, actually).

Inside these programs, you will run other programs - VST players, which are platforms for virtual instruments (Native Instruments Kontakt is a popular one, used by third parties a lot)

The instruments themselves are called VSTi (virtual studio technology instruments). The best pianos include Pianoteq 5, a highly sophisticated mathematical modelling system, which runs on its own platform, Ivory II, Galaxy Steinway Vintage D, Garritan CFX and VI Ravenscroft. All of these are way better in various respects than the relatively primative piano engines on most digital pianos.







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Re: DAWs
toddy #2409536 04/12/15 03:46 PM
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Thx for the replies.

Originally Posted by Dan Clark
How do you define "DAW"?
The software. My impression is that when most people talk DAWs today, that's what they mean, though I get your broader meaning.


Quote
p.p.s. [edit] For DAW software, I use Reaper (mostly for MIDI editing) and am learning FL Studio. Each has pluses and minutes. To start, consider Reaper - it's good software and very inexpensive ($60).
Yes saw that today. smile Definitely keeping in mind.


Originally Posted by toddy
Audacity, which is an excellent piece of sound recording freeware, is not really a DAW as it does not deal with MIDI, nor does it have full mixing and routing facilities.
Technically that's not true, it is a DAW, albeit a limited one, but sounds like a common definition of "DAW" in the music/recording world is more as you say-? Be interested in hearing from others.

Quote
However, DAWs go much further and cost between about 50 dollars and $1000.
Side note, Studio One has a free version. Also limited (no VST plugin capability), but could be more than enough depending on one's needs.

Quote
The most famous are probably:

Steinberg Cubase (who invented the rolling graphic matrix system, still used today).

Ableton Live - one of the most innovative.

Logic, which is the system exclusive to Apple Mac computers (Garage Band is their beginner's freeby)

Reaper - a relatively new system. Extremely flexible working patterns, open ended. V cheap.

Pro-Tools - the industry standard (though I don't know why it is, actually).

Thanks! Any thoughts on the full-up Studio One?

Appreciate the replies, this is good stuff smile
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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409537 04/12/15 03:47 PM
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I have also tried PreSonus StudioOne and Anvil Studio.

Anvil Studio is free for basic functions, but you should pay if you want more advanced functions (more than 30s of audio. More than one VST). But it is quite lightweight and nice to have.

PreSonus StudioOne is free (again... You pay for advanced function... But the base system is more advanced than Anvil Studio). I have found that StudioOne needs some time to be launched. EDIT: when I have tried it, it was just as a MIDI sequencer... But now I also need VST support. I do had some trouble with the MIDI input which stopped working until I launched the software again.

Anyway I have opted for Reaper which could be tested freely for a period of time. There is no copy protection, just a license file to import which tag your software with your identity. (A good point... I don't like activation process where I could worry what should I do if my PC is broken)

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/12/15 04:07 PM.

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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409553 04/12/15 04:21 PM
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You specifically want a fully featured DAW that functions both as a MIDI and Audio sequencer. The established DAWs do this and also have extensive tools for editing both MIDI and Audio as well as the functionality of a hardware mixer and FX rack in virtual form.

The most well established DAWs include Cubase, Pro Tools, Digital Performer, Logic Pro (Mac Only), Reason, Ableton Live, FL Studio. Newer to the party you have Presonus Studio One, Cockos Reaper, Tracktion, Mix Craft, etc.

In general they all do the same thing but with different user interfaces and a few features here and there that make one or another stand out. The more established DAWs also come with large virtual instrument sets, sample libraries, and fx which are also unique to each that make them stand out from the rest
.

As a general statement, I would recommend if you are on a Mac to learn Logic or Pro Tools. On the PC I would suggest Cubase or Pro Tools. Both Cubase and Pro Tools today come in free our lite versions for you to begin learning how they work. Cubase AI comes free with most Yamaha and or Steinberg hardware and Pro Tools Free with Avid Hardware.

Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409587 04/12/15 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bill5
Originally Posted by toddy
Audacity, which is an excellent piece of sound recording freeware, is not really a DAW as it does not deal with MIDI, nor does it have full mixing and routing facilities.
Technically that's not true, it is a DAW, albeit a limited one, but sounds like a common definition of "DAW" in the music/recording world is more as you say-? Be interested in hearing from others.

Instead of "not really a DAW" he should have said "not a DAW at all". wink

Audacity is a wave editor. DAWs began as MIDI sequencers that added support for virtual instruments and effects, then audio tracks and recording.


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Re: DAWs
lolatu #2409607 04/12/15 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Audacity is a wave editor.


Sorry for drifting off-topic, but I would argue otherwise.

While Audacity does certainly allow wave files to be edited, I believe - and please do correct me if I am wrong on this - that the software does not work directly on the waveform itself. Rather, you load wave files into a multi-track project, perform adjustments (typically in 32bit), then export the project (which remixes and resamples the data) out as a stereo waveform.

Contrast this with a 'traditional' wave editor that works directly on the file (i.e. no remixing/resampling) such as Sound Forge, Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit), GoldWave, or Audio Master IV (one for all the kids out there...), etc.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: DAWs
lolatu #2409623 04/12/15 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lolatu

Instead of "not really a DAW" he should have said "not a DAW at all". wink

Audacity is a wave editor. DAWs began as MIDI sequencers that added support for virtual instruments and effects, then audio tracks and recording.
Even I know that's not true. smile Look up the definition of a DAW and if you check out audacity, you'll see it easily qualifies. But again that may differ from the commonly understood definition of the term, and certainly it's limited regardless.

Moving on.......

For those who have and have used others (esp if you've used more than one so can compare), what did/didn't you like about them?

Re: DAWs
Kawai James #2409629 04/12/15 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by lolatu
Audacity is a wave editor.


Sorry for drifting off-topic, but I would argue otherwise.

While Audacity does certainly allow wave files to be edited, I believe - and please do correct me if I am wrong on this - that the software does not work directly on the waveform itself. Rather, you load wave files into a multi-track project, perform adjustments (typically in 32bit), then export the project (which remixes and resamples the data) out as a stereo waveform.

Contrast this with a 'traditional' wave editor that works directly on the file (i.e. no remixing/resampling) such as Sound Forge, Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit), GoldWave, or Audio Master IV (one for all the kids out there...), etc.

Kind regards,
James
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that's funny.

A wave editor is destructive.

Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409653 04/12/15 11:04 PM
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Interesting that so far no one spelled out the fact that DAW is an acronym for "Digital Audio Workstation". Older "workstations" such as the Korg Trinity, Korg Triton, etc (Roland and Yamaha had a couple too) - and newer ones such as the Korg Kronos are where the term "workstation" was generally applied. They had internal sequencers, editing capabilities of individual tracks, mixing capabilities, etc. Software versions running on computers came to be known as "digital audio workstation" (or DAW)- Protools, Cakewalk, Sonar are examples of DAW's. Modern day DAW's can record and edit tracks in both MIDI and AUDIO formats, as well as mix all tracks down to the final stereo (or 5.1 surround) tracks. The above is just a very general simple intro to what a DAW is.


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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409677 04/13/15 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
While Audacity does certainly allow wave files to be edited, I believe - and please do correct me if I am wrong on this - that the software does not work directly on the waveform itself. Rather, you load wave files into a multi-track project, perform adjustments (typically in 32bit), then export the project (which remixes and resamples the data) out as a stereo waveform.

Contrast this with a 'traditional' wave editor that works directly on the file (i.e. no remixing/resampling) such as Sound Forge, Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit), GoldWave, or Audio Master IV (one for all the kids out there...), etc.

Originally Posted by emenelton
A wave editor is destructive.

Audacity asks you when you load a wave file whether you want to use the original or a copy. I don't think the option to make a copy before editing is a substansive difference. Why do you think it is? You could just make a copy of the file then destructively edit that. It's the same thing.

It's true that Audacity does let you mix samples together on different tracks, and save your setup as a project. So it is more advanced than a simple wave editor. I think "audio editor" is a more correct term. But it's not a DAW. Nobody calls it a DAW. DAWs are what people called "sequencers" before they gained all their audio capabilities: Cubase, Logic etc.

Originally Posted by bill5
Originally Posted by lolatu
Instead of "not really a DAW" he should have said "not a DAW at all". wink

Audacity is a wave editor. DAWs began as MIDI sequencers that added support for virtual instruments and effects, then audio tracks and recording.

Even I know that's not true. smile Look up the definition of a DAW and if you check out audacity, you'll see it easily qualifies. But again that may differ from the commonly understood definition of the term, and certainly it's limited regardless.

Listen, punk... forget what you think you know. One of us knows what he's talking about, and it's not you. wink

Google "is Audacity a DAW" if you don't believe me.


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Re: DAWs
lolatu #2409682 04/13/15 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Originally Posted by Kawai James
While Audacity does certainly allow wave files to be edited, I believe - and please do correct me if I am wrong on this - that the software does not work directly on the waveform itself. Rather, you load wave files into a multi-track project, perform adjustments (typically in 32bit), then export the project (which remixes and resamples the data) out as a stereo waveform.

Contrast this with a 'traditional' wave editor that works directly on the file (i.e. no remixing/resampling) such as Sound Forge, Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit), GoldWave, or Audio Master IV (one for all the kids out there...), etc.

Originally Posted by emenelton
A wave editor is destructive.

Audacity asks you when you load a wave file whether you want to use the original or a copy.


I believe that's to ensure the original wave data (i.e. a dependency) is still available when the project is exported.

Originally Posted by lolatu
I don't think the option to make a copy before editing is a substansive difference. Why do you think it is? You could just make a copy of the file then destructively edit that. It's the same thing.


No, I don't believe it is.

There is no 'destructive editing' in Audacity, that's the point.
You import waveforms into a project, adjust those waveforms within the project, and then export the project back out as a waveform.

To use a photographic analogy, it's a little like sticking a photo (your waveform) onto a piece of paper (your project), cropping the photo+paper with some scissors, then taking another photo of the cropped photo+paper and calling this the edited photo. As opposed to using scissors directly on the original photo.

Cheers,
James
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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409691 04/13/15 02:08 AM
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lol


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Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409694 04/13/15 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bill5

For those who have and have used others (esp if you've used more than one so can compare), what did/didn't you like about them?


Hi Bill,

You're on the "safe" side following the advice from Elmer: Logic on Mac, Cubase/ProTools on Windows (though I would not spend the money Avid wants for ProTools...).

I have used Cubase, Tracktion & Reaper on Windows and GarageBand and Logic on Mac. They are all okay :-)

I really like Logic because it comes with a huge sound and effects library for a really low price. Cubase is very similar on Windows, but a little more expensive. Reaper is nice too. However, you have to look elsewhere for all the sounds/efxs.

Just start using one of them and see if you like it. You could download Reaper and the Cubase Elements trial and compare for yourself. If you want to broaden the search look if there are trials for e.g. Presonus Studio One, Cakewalk Sonar and Motu Digital Perfomer.

Thomas

P.S. No matter whether Audacity is a DAW or not, IMHO you will not want to use it for music composition/production...

Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409825 04/13/15 11:57 AM
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Thx Thomas. Yeah when I get to that point, I will probably try an eval copy or two. I don't need much if anything in the way of sound effects; Pink Floyd I aint (plus only commies use Macs). smile Really I was looking more for general info about them vs info about specific ones, but that info is also appreciated as I'll get to that point eventually. (I think! I guess I better buy a DP first lol)


Originally Posted by lolatu

Listen, punk... forget what you think you know. One of us knows what he's talking about, and it's not you. wink

Google "is Audacity a DAW" if you don't believe me.
lol

Believe that if it makes you happy. (PS: Google "DAW definition")

OK that's more than enough on that, some audacity you have (sorry but that bad joke was inevitable, let's get it out of the way as well)!

Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409831 04/13/15 12:26 PM
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bill5,

You do seem to be trying to get the big picture.
I have read your two threads.
I personally would choose Reaper because it works and it is kind of free.
You tend to have to define all your in-outs which is tedious but teaches you at the same time.
It is totally 'mutable' which is it's strength and weakness. You have to set it up.
The most important thing is it works well after you spend time learning it.

Cubase Elements, is a lite version. The experience I've had with the lite versions of Cubase is not good. They are a little tempermental. They can be a total time soak and not work that well.
Some people may have had a good experience with it, my bad one was with CUBASE A1 that I received with my Steinberg interface. It really did not work.

If you wanted to purchase a DAW that is a standard for MIDI and AUDIO production I would suggest CUBASE Artist 8. The benefit is you learn it and then use it.

Cubase Artist 8 $179
Reaper $60

These are the 2 I suggest


Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409897 04/13/15 04:00 PM
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If you are using Mac or Linux, you should definately take a look at Ardour, which is an open source DAW that is way more powerful than Audacity. It includes features like MIDI editing, MIDI control surface support and VST support and has more or less any editing capability you'll need.

The learning curve is quite a bit steeper than Audacity though, as Ardour is optimised for professional use.

It's really a great piece of software, and even more so if you are on a budget. However, there is no Windows version, and I recall seing a blog post or FAQ entry stating there will never be one. Windows is just far too different from OSX and Linux.

Re: DAWs
pNoob #2409909 04/13/15 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pNoob
If you are using Mac or Linux, you should definately take a look at Ardour, which is an open source DAW that is way more powerful than Audacity. It includes features like MIDI editing, MIDI control surface support and VST support and has more or less any editing capability you'll need.

The learning curve is quite a bit steeper than Audacity though, as Ardour is optimised for professional use.

It's really a great piece of software, and even more so if you are on a budget. However, there is no Windows version, and I recall seing a blog post or FAQ entry stating there will never be one. Windows is just far too different from OSX and Linux.


The OP said that only commies use macs.

Re: DAWs
bill5 #2409913 04/13/15 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bill5
only commies use Macs


This, to me, is an astonishing socio-economic observation. I thought it was almost the opposite: that only petty bourgeois use macs. It is a fatishised object, exactly the sort of thing that was supposedly obliterated from the minds of the lumpen proletariat by the soviet party line.

Of course, the truth runs a good deal deeper than that, but even so, this is jaw-dropping news.


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