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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408570 04/09/15 03:56 PM
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I can't seem to find a good video of the inside of the Casio action but seeing the videos of the Kawai action & Yamaha actions it really looks like the Yamaha is both more padded, has more free play, and is more likely to absorb some of the vibration since the hammer is more like a bent wire. The pictures of the Roland actions I've seen look more like Kawai/Casio. Some of the GHS repair videos make it look like there is a lot of play in there.

That said maybe that is why they feel less precise than the Kawai ones.. at the time last year when I tried the CN24/34 I thought they were hugely better than the Yamaha GH/GHS actions.

My guess is too many people who get hurt on these just quit.. if you quit you're not going to care about a class action lawsuit. I'm really close to just forgetting about the whole piano thing and do no music for a year and maybe then try something totally different like guitar.

I'll see.. I have to wait a few days of no playing on even the AP as I manage to irritate things again the last few days fooling around on the CN24. My guess is I can figure this out just hitting some keys with the sound off if I can get in to a store.

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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408576 04/09/15 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Boule
I can't seem to find a good video of the inside of the Casio action but seeing the videos of the Kawai action & Yamaha actions it really looks like the Yamaha is both more padded, has more free play, and is more likely to absorb some of the vibration since the hammer is more like a bent wire. The pictures of the Roland actions I've seen look more like Kawai/Casio. Some of the GHS repair videos make it look like there is a lot of play in there.

That said maybe that is why they feel less precise than the Kawai ones.. at the time last year when I tried the CN24/34 I thought they were hugely better than the Yamaha GH/GHS actions.

My guess is too many people who get hurt on these just quit.. if you quit you're not going to care about a class action lawsuit. I'm really close to just forgetting about the whole piano thing and do no music for a year and maybe then try something totally different like guitar.

I'll see.. I have to wait a few days of no playing on even the AP as I manage to irritate things again the last few days fooling around on the CN24. My guess is I can figure this out just hitting some keys with the sound off if I can get in to a store.


What does your piano teacher say about this?

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408610 04/09/15 05:57 PM
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One thing that might possibly make DP hammer actions more injurious is the way they tend to stick all the sensors on the hammer. This is good for sensing final hammer velocity, but maybe not so good for sensing key position unless there is very little hammer free play.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408619 04/09/15 06:14 PM
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So why aren't you contacting Kawai to get it checked out (or did I miss something there)? If it is in fact an issue with the instrument, it is worth fixing and getting in working order.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that the reason most students quit is that it's harder than they expect.


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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
dewster #2408634 04/09/15 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Injuring people is no joke.

Let's stop blaming the tools. Or, to put it another way, the bad musician blames his piano.

There're many, many more people playing DPs than APs today. How come they don't all get injured?

BTW, the list of well-known classical concert pianists who have been injured playing their, er, Steinways (which I believe are APs, not DPs) is legion - Gary Graffman, Leon Fleisher, Michel Béroff, Murray Perahia.........but they don't blame their APs.

And yes, most people who stop playing do so because they simply can't hack it, not because they get injured.



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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408644 04/09/15 07:41 PM
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Ben,

I tried to mention a piano teacher and got ignored. Now that bennevis has gone all Thor on this thread I thought I might be a little more clear.
Do you have a piano teacher?
Has your piano teacher been to your studio and watched how you play your CN24 and assessed what may be the issue?
Digitals can really cause you to attack the piano funny.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408655 04/09/15 08:31 PM
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Sheesh, bennevis.

I'm guessing the guns came out at the notion that DPs are exclusive to causing injury, which is of course not exclusively the case.

However, there is a valid point (and perhaps Dewster distracted from it with cries for class action law suits - which we should all be quite used to from Dewster by now! ha ha ha). The point is that there is very little consistency in the design of the actions we are seeing in these new digital instruments (as opposed to acoustic actions that have a lot of similarity due to refinement of the design over many years). That being said, it has only been suggested that there are perhaps some that do not diffuse the energy put into them in as forgiving a manner as others which is entirely possible and is something to take into consideration when choosing an instrument. No different than selecting this acoustic vs. that one due to feeling of the action which all players do (amongst other factors of course, like sound!).

Yes, poor technique is always to be watched for and there is a reason to study from an experienced teacher in person, but it's not a cut and dry issue. The fact of the matter is that, in the case of concert pianists and other professional musicians (athletes and trades that require repetitive motion), it has much more to do with a myriad of factors that doctor's don't fully understand and none of them can be discounted.

There is tendonitis vs. tendonosis vs. carpal tunnel
osteoarthritis vs. (heaven forbid) rheumatoid arthritis
focal dystonia or what some people call piper's palsy
simple back pain, neck pain, etc.
allergies, deficiencies, all sorts of genetic and autoimmune disorders.
The list actually goes on and on.
For musicians these maladies are our worst nightmare and always in the back of our mind. How long will I be able to play?

There is a price to pay for playing well (countless hours at the bench), and as we are only starting to understand, it's not talked much about amongst professional players because it's embarrassing and difficult for a musician to admit they could be at a career ending moment or at the very least, not as capable as they once were and less able to compete for work.

We can't all play forever. It's sad, but the truth.

But, if you were able to play longer or to continue to play with less likelihood of injury because you had addressed technique, your health, and your choice of instrument/action... aren't these all things worth considering?

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408658 04/09/15 08:42 PM
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yes but does the op have a teacher or not?
and if not, might the suggestion to have a professional assess and tutor the op at his instrument be considered a priority by those that have Mr. Boule's best interest in mind?

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408676 04/09/15 09:26 PM
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Hmmm, I was under the impression that he wasn't a beginner, but now reading back maybe I got confused with this thread and one of the many others that pop each day. So, I agree with you. It's a valid question, of course. We really should know for certain if technique is a major contributing factor.

I didn't think anyone in the thread was a salesman (I'm certainly not) but I may be wrong. I guess you never know. Kawai James doesn't hide the fact he works for Kawai, he's generally a pretty fair fellow. Perhaps you could interpret his post as a little bit of damage control for something starting up like, "the CN24's action has a hard bottoming out".

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408680 04/09/15 09:45 PM
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It just seems that the problem could be bad technique with the CN24.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
ElmerJFudd #2408681 04/09/15 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Kawai James doesn't hide the fact he works for Kawai, he's generally a pretty fair fellow. Perhaps you could interpret his post as a little bit of damage control for something starting up like, "the CN24's action has a hard bottoming out".


No, not at all. In my opinion, the RH actions (RH/RHII/RHIII) do not have a 'hard bottoming out' characteristic.

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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408781 04/10/15 07:52 AM
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Not much point in continuing to respond to this if people are going to come in and make hostile remarks without actually reading what I wrote.

YES I have a teacher.
YES I have contacted Kawai.
YES I have worked on this extensively for almost the past year with my teacher.
NO my teacher doesn't even think I play with much tension.

Maybe I'm going to open my CN24 up and take a look at it since Kawai wasn't interested. It'd be hilarious if it turns out there is something glaring like a rubber strip that wasn't put in during assembly. But it any case I won't ever be playing it again at this point.

Last edited by Ben Boule; 04/10/15 07:54 AM.
Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408790 04/10/15 08:14 AM
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Ben,

If it were mine, I am sorry. To me digitals can cause a person to develop funny habits. With all the back and forth (sorry i do see the mention once I went back again) a teacher was never mentioned.
I noticed you got rid of the 80 years ago an were without a DP for a long time.
To me that is significant.
Having your teacher come to your practice space and assess your technique at the CN and play it is a good step.

Chris

Last edited by emenelton; 04/10/15 08:21 AM.
Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408807 04/10/15 09:20 AM
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Hi Ben - one thing I've wondered about. Acoustics are just naturally loud. Louder than most people think. Is it possible that there's a difference in volume between your digital and an acoustic that you're subconsciously compensating for when you play? I know this idea has come up here in the past in other threads, so it's not original to me.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408839 04/10/15 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben Boule
Not much point in continuing to respond to this if people are going to come in and make hostile remarks without actually reading what I wrote.

YES I have a teacher.
YES I have contacted Kawai.
YES I have worked on this extensively for almost the past year with my teacher.
NO my teacher doesn't even think I play with much tension.

Maybe I'm going to open my CN24 up and take a look at it since Kawai wasn't interested. It'd be hilarious if it turns out there is something glaring like a rubber strip that wasn't put in during assembly. But it any case I won't ever be playing it again at this point.


Ben, you had said you contacted Kawai but didn't elaborate on their response. I would keep at it with them until you are satisfied. At the very least, they can send out a service person to check it out. That is what I meant by my post, sorry for not being more clear.

I hope my posts weren't received as attacks. Most of us are trying to help, we don't know all the details or need more information to offer advice.

Often times, it is just a person's technique the is the problem, but I have personally experienced the issue you seem to be having (with a different DP). So let's all assume that it's not a technical problem and it is in fact an issue with the CN24.

Has this always been a problem, or has it just gotten worse over time?


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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
bennevis #2408871 04/10/15 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Let's stop blaming the tools. Or, to put it another way, the bad musician blames his piano.

An argument which assumes all players have all the time, energy, expertise, enthusiasm, education, and money to make good choices for themselves. They don't. Nobody does.

I'd be surprised if many / most players here weren't more or less forced at one point or another in their careers to practice / perform for extended periods on a particular DP. A lot of this doesn't come down to free choice.

In this day and age, those who manufacture products on which they *know* that people get injured can't run around acting clueless. They should be aware of the risks to injury, help their customers become more aware of them, and obviously be doing whatever they can within reason to minimize them. To not do so is to behave irresponsibly.

And manufacturing a less injurious action might be a good marketing angle.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
dewster #2408891 04/10/15 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by bennevis
Let's stop blaming the tools. Or, to put it another way, the bad musician blames his piano.

An argument which assumes all players have all the time, energy, expertise, enthusiasm, education, and money to make good choices for themselves. They don't. Nobody does.

I'd be surprised if many / most players here weren't more or less forced at one point or another in their careers to practice / perform for extended periods on a particular DP. A lot of this doesn't come down to free choice.

In this day and age, those who manufacture products on which they *know* that people get injured can't run around acting clueless. They should be aware of the risks to injury, help their customers become more aware of them, and obviously be doing whatever they can within reason to minimize them. To not do so is to behave irresponsibly.

And manufacturing a less injurious action might be a good marketing angle.


How much "less injurious" can they make it? We have 1 person, with a history of tendonitis in other body parts, who developed tendonitis in his hands. But it went away with rest.

Is the forum flooded with people who have had the same negative experience with digital pianos? Clearly, not the case.

Although dps are vastly more popular than acoustics, I would expect many more instances of injury to be reported if they were badly designed and causing injury.

While I understand that as an acoustic piano purist your job is to search out any potential negative associated with digital piano and blow it out of proportion, in this case you're barking up the wrong tree.


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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
dewster #2408903 04/10/15 02:15 PM
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My personal 2 cents: there are tons of people out there playing these dp's. A lot of them are conservatory students practicing for hours a day, and buying digital just because they have to practice for hours, even at night. And Kawai happens to be one of the most reputable ( and thus sold ) brands.

If it had a distinct problem with it's actions, all these people would be first in line to suffer injuries, much more and earlyer than hobbyists. And this i say regarding the "class action" thing.

I understand the thread opener's problem though, and read it with interest. But understand it more like a personal incompatibility, possibly with just Kawai products, and follow it with interest, since it could teach something mkre detailed about actions.

Personally, i'm not sure a lighter action should be expected to necessarily relief the problem. To me it could worsen it. The lighter the action, the harder you could bottom out.

Last edited by Bellicapelli; 04/10/15 02:17 PM.

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Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408911 04/10/15 02:49 PM
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All this defensive talk...

It is still possible there is just something wrong with my CN24. Kawai apparently thinks it is normal for it to feel harder on your hands than an acoustic. (That is basically what I was told by support when they told me to go try another CN-class DP, I have, and I know they feel like this..)

I am not exactly "prone" to tendonitis. I got it in my foot once when I was running ~30 miles a week and I've had it in my knee when I was biking 200+ miles a week. All WAY easier to manage than this piano related injury has been. I could do 50+ pushups without any complaints from my arms/wrists when I bought the CN24.

I think the RHII action just isn't the one for me. I went and played a PX-350 for about an hour at lunch today. There are lots of things I'm not crazy about (it sounds like crap compared to the CN24), but I don't think the Casio action aggravates my hands at all. It's got more of a "bounce" at the bottom of the key travel when you hit it hard and it is more forgiving about relaxing your hands and letting the key rise a little (just like an acoustic) in comparison to my CN24. The weighting is definitely less and that took a minute to get used too, but not long, and it repeats every bit as well as the CN24 and I had no problem bringing out dynamics.

With an hour of playing I should be in misery right now, and I'm not, my arms feel perfectly fine. I've never even once managed to play the CN24 for an hour.

Re: DPs with soft bottoming out...
Ben Boule #2408914 04/10/15 02:57 PM
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I have the PX5s and like the hammer dynamics, it is just like you say - a nice bounce. I had the ES6 as well, which is a little like your CN24, it's kind of like a light spinet.
I always try to encourage the PX5s over the PX350, you can find for less than full boat if you look and it has some upgradeable piano patches.

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