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Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: Savante] #2274108
05/11/14 03:28 PM
05/11/14 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Savante
In the context of the original subject of this thread -- repair issues for the Kawai Grand Feel keyboard, I would like to put in a good word for Kawai USA technical support.


I wanted to add that my experience with the CA95 had less to do with the quality of the instrument itself but specifically the tech who came out to service it. There are generally only a couple of options available to the customer in which to make adjustments and repairs on a digital:

1) Local store technicians - where the digital was purchased:

I would assume that most folks will tend to let a local store tech do adjustments and repairs (as I did) since that is where the piano was purchased from and the technician can usually make a home visit very quickly. I didn't have any way in knowing in advance that the tech they sent out was not a certified Kawai technician and was not experienced with repairs on the CA95.

2) Kawai technicians - from Kawai USA:

Does this option really exist?

I know that I had called Kawai USA and had e-mail/phone correspondence with at least three persons from different departments and yet the tech that came out to service my digital was not from "Kawai" but my local store. How does this qualify the poorly done job that was done on my CA95?

I wrongly assumed that I was going to receive a qualified and experienced "Kawai" technician from my local store - and, did not. So, where does one find and obtain a certified Kawai technician?

Please note:

When corresponding directly with Kawai I was told to contact my local store for setting up a technician visit. In other words, no one was sent from Kawai USA to do the work.

The results I had were obviously not good although others may have found or located better service.

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Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: CharlieFreak] #2274129
05/11/14 04:03 PM
05/11/14 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlieFreak
I find it rather poor and unfair to Kawai that you did not mention on the initial posts of these problems that they were caused entirely by you trying to service the instrument yourself.

Maybe it was just an oversight on your part, but some posters in this thread seem to have overlooked this important info - and taken Kawai (and Kawai James) to task about quality control. That doesn't seem fair?


In the OP's defense, I believe he did in fact mention that a couple of the problems he described were caused by his initial maintenance explorations (see posts #2273095 and #2273116, for example). I personally didn't think his comments were particularly biased against Kawai.

I agree that a few other posters seem to have overlooked that info, though smile

Kind regards,

B.

Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2274741
05/12/14 10:07 AM
05/12/14 10:07 AM
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A few observations from a very satisfied Kawai newbie:

1. The OP did indeed mention that some his problems were a direct result of his own intervention. That crucial point was overlooked in subsequent commentary.

2. The OP also stated this was a USED instrument, exact provenance unknowable. I would think that fact alone would preclude meaningful discussion of manufacturer defect. Maybe he's not the first to open it up.

3. With DP's we have the unique possibility of scrutinizing the key mechanics without the music. Would many of us even know if our cherished AP's were exhibiting some of these small flaws?

4. Nonetheless, the OP has provided an amazingly well documented reference for those wishing to tinker with their used or out-of-warranty instrument. Nothing at all wrong with that.

5. James has been unfailingly civil and helpful, IMO.


Randy

Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2399130
03/17/15 01:56 AM
03/17/15 01:56 AM
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Hey lolatu, any fix for the "space between the 'C' and 'D' key issue on MP11?

I also notice a slight "thud" when the black keys go fully up to the top.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

- Jeff


"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
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Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2399138
03/17/15 02:29 AM
03/17/15 02:29 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello Jeff,

If you have any hardware-related concerns with your MP11, I recommend contacting the retailer and/or Kawai America to seek assistance.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2399886
03/18/15 10:03 PM
03/18/15 10:03 PM
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Hi James -

I'll give them a call and report the results of my inquiry here. I'm not keen on sending it back for a replacement, as I purchased an "open box" at a favorable price (working, budget-conscious saxophonist here....).

Hopefully, it's either an easy, DIY fix or a local rep can come out and repair. However, these issues don't actually bother me; I'm merely a perfectionist and want all to be right with my new instrument, which is fantastic.

FWIW, I would liken the "Grand Feel" action on the MP11 to a "cherry," vintage Selmer Mark VI tenor saxophone (my axe of 42 years). Google "The Mark VI Room" at Roberto's in NYC to see what a bargain the MP11 is in comparison!


"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2399991
03/19/15 05:03 AM
03/19/15 05:03 AM
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Jon ...

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Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: Skyscrapersax] #2400181
03/19/15 02:15 PM
03/19/15 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,138
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Skyscrapersax -

The balance rail sections go from C# up to C, hence in terms of white keys, the break is between C and D. It's probably not coincidence that this is where the gaps occur.

I had success using the hammer / dowel method in the video below on the balance rail pins. In terms of bending the front rail pins, I would guess from their lenticular cross-section that they're designed to be bent left-right. You could probably bend them (at the base!) using a pair of pliers and some cardboard for padding, to ensure the metal isn't scratched.

You could have a go yourself, but I heard that the MP11 isn't very easy to take apart since there are some complications with the headphones sockets.



Kawai James said that the key gaps were due to errors in the way the keyboards were assembled, and that "certainly, all wooden-key DPs produced since [the time of early MP10 units] should no longer have the noticeable C-D gap issue". I hope that is reassuring!


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: Morodiene] #2400237
03/19/15 05:20 PM
03/19/15 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

You are incorrect. On an AP, there are no dampers on the notes G6 and above, so whether you use the damper pedal or not, it will still ring. The only way to dampen these notes on an AP is to physically stop the strings from vibrating with your hand (not recommended, unless you have treated your hands first). I'm sure Ivory has ways to adjust the sound, but this is not a dysfunction of the MP11, but rather a setting in Ivory. I'm not sure you'd be able to get rid of this effect, but the added reverb certainly. If you are talking about MP11, you can adjust this via the Virtual Technician. I had lowered the damper resonance across the entire piano to about 3 (the default I think was 5 or 6, which seemed way too much for me).


Now this is interesting information that I never knew since I have very little experience with playing acoustic pianos. This is why I read some of these threads even though I don't currently own a Kawai. I will have to try this on my DP.

Thanks...

Tony


Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: TonyB] #2400247
03/19/15 05:49 PM
03/19/15 05:49 PM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by Morodiene

You are incorrect. On an AP, there are no dampers on the notes G6 and above, so whether you use the damper pedal or not, it will still ring. The only way to dampen these notes on an AP is to physically stop the strings from vibrating with your hand (not recommended, unless you have treated your hands first). I'm sure Ivory has ways to adjust the sound, but this is not a dysfunction of the MP11, but rather a setting in Ivory. I'm not sure you'd be able to get rid of this effect, but the added reverb certainly. If you are talking about MP11, you can adjust this via the Virtual Technician. I had lowered the damper resonance across the entire piano to about 3 (the default I think was 5 or 6, which seemed way too much for me).


Now this is interesting information that I never knew since I have very little experience with playing acoustic pianos. This is why I read some of these threads even though I don't currently own a Kawai. I will have to try this on my DP.

Thanks...

Tony



I have fun memories of that since some months ago I realised something funny was going on while playing something and it threw me for the first time when I discovered it, so much so I thought it was perhaps a firmware bug at first on my Casio digital, then I did some reading and quickly found that in fact it is correct behaviour of a real piano, and it is implemented on the Casio AP-450 I own too, so it should be on the PX-5S as well in your sig, it has the same piano sounds. The V grand ... well you'd expect it at that price smile I doubt it should be hard to implement a feature like that, It is also implemented on the Ivory American D I use.

IIRC when I read about it, some grand pianos the dampers stop at different notes though, not always @ G6, or whatever the most common is.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/19/15 05:50 PM.

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Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2400307
03/19/15 08:59 PM
03/19/15 08:59 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
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There is definitely some good stuff in this thread. Thanks to whoever put in the work to document this stuff.

I agree that a lot of what is mentioned is maintenance rather than quality control. These are instruments with moving parts comprised of organic materials (wood and felt) and with many parts. Anything that moves will wear, any assembly will shift over time, it's just the laws of physics. Considering these are instruments made in another country and shipped half way around the world where wood and felt will swell and constrict, some adjustment when new is not appalling.

If the piano showed up without a key, or without a piece of felt or foam, that is quality control, but something shifting or swelling as it's shipped half way around the world is not a quality issue, it's nature.

My MP10 made some bad noise when it was brand new (it was just taken out of box in the store) and Kawai had it fixed in a day. I had one other small issue and Kawai sent somebody to MY HOUSE to fix it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a complicated instrument needing some adjustment once in a while, especially when its covered under warranty.

Anybody who owns a guitar knows it should be 'setup' when purchased, and really at least once a year. If a string buzzes against a fret, people don't slam Fender or Paul Reed Smith, they mention it to the store and get a setup. The neck moves with humidity, when wood swells it can push out the metal frets, these are laws of nature and they apply to our DP's.

Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: McBuster] #2401332
03/22/15 02:31 PM
03/22/15 02:31 PM
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Suburban Detroit, Michigan
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McBuster, I looked at your photos, and it appears that after your first "nudge" to the right, that the space is now wider between your "B" and "C" keys...

You then state that you repeated this process for all OCTAVES (not notes).

How did you get rid of the new, extra space between the "B" and "C" keys?

FWIW, it does appear in your final photo that there is a TINY bit of extra space between the "B" and "C", as well as the "C" and "D" keys - sort of like you "evened it out.

Am I correct?

Thanks,

- Jeff


"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2401358
03/22/15 03:47 PM
03/22/15 03:47 PM
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Jeff

I am familiar with what's inside these keyboards. Let's assume for conversation, a Steinway uses the best felt around. Let's assume for conversation the felt in Kawai' keyboards is not quite that good.

Under the key top for white and black keys, is a pin. About an 1/8" in diameter and 3/4" tall. I expect this is held to a sheet metal base with a nut.

There is a slot on the bottom of each key lined with felt on both sides. This ensures the key is where it belongs left/right. Thus infers by moving these pins left and right, the keys will move left and right.

I do not believe the felt in a Kawai Ca95 is hard enough to center that key precisely. Every time. Nor are the tolerances involved held that tightly. Indeed not at the level of a Steinway.

All I wanted to do was make these 7-8 gaps betterer. Not perfect. What I did in seconds accomplished that for me.

I could have taken everything apart and like Ravenscroft adjusted height and centering til all was perfect.

To make that last, the felt would demand an upgrade as well. In order to hold the tolerances required. Which IMHO Kawai felt will not do.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2401367
03/22/15 04:11 PM
03/22/15 04:11 PM
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Pete14 Online content
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So you're saying that Kawai felt the felt, and decided for the cheaper felt they felt?

Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: Savante] #2401368
03/22/15 04:18 PM
03/22/15 04:18 PM
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Hey, Savant!

Thank you for this post.

Could you elaborate on the utility of the "zone" architecture of the MP7?

First, I bought the MP7 and personally found the keybed a bit "shallow" - meaning that the amount of "key dip" (the low side of 1 cm, as nearly as I can measure) is less than I would prefer.

Conversely, I later learned that that same shallow key dip is useful for playing fast organ runs, especially combined with the MP7-specific "Fast" and "Fast 2" trigger points - not something that the organ-free MP11 does at all.

I then bought the MP11 and, being essentially enthralled with the keybed, have not yet played around with the MP7's higher functions.

I am going to try to MIDI the two together, and have the 11 control the 7.

Can you advise me of some of the cool things that I can do with this set-up?

Thanks,

- Jeff







"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: Pete14] #2401382
03/22/15 05:27 PM
03/22/15 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
So you're saying that Kawai felt the felt, and decided for the cheaper felt they felt?


laugh laugh laugh


Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: McBuster] #2401394
03/22/15 05:57 PM
03/22/15 05:57 PM
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Thanks, Jon ...

Conceptualizing this, I suppose each key could be moved a little left and right as well...

You mention nudging the offending key to the right... (creating the new gap).

Did you then nudge it to the left, etc. until it "centered"?

Thanks,

- Jeff


"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2401453
03/22/15 08:24 PM
03/22/15 08:24 PM
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Jeff

Nudging the C Key. I just did it as a lark to see if ... ...

I mentioned hearing a Click in all C Keys. This had nothing to do with the underlying pin. That will not move unless you take it all apart. Pushing sideways on all the others did nothing

The only reason my 7-8 keys were relocated was whatever inside clicked, made the key happy.

You may be interested on the Nekkid Pictures thread. Or going to Ravenscroft website which shows what the infidels look like.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2401468
03/22/15 08:56 PM
03/22/15 08:56 PM
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Jeff, all I can really say is I'm jealous!

You should be able to plug each one's MIDI output into the other's MIDI input, so you can control both pianos from both pianos.

I like the idea of setting the MP7 up for organ and synth and the MP11 for piano. I would love to have a good organ tone in the MP10.

Re: Kawai Grand Feel key clinic [Re: lolatu] #2401545
03/23/15 02:49 AM
03/23/15 02:49 AM
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Joe, having both of these slabs is only the result of indecision. And then, per your post, it dawned on me: It would be great is to have an MP7 with Grand Feel keys. Now I have that, only with two units and MIDI cables! I've been thinking about returning the MP7 (thinking a LOT, actually, teter-tottering this way and that...).

I originally got the MP7 for both at home and gigging, but then the MP11 for the Grand Feel keyboard; useless for gigging sans roadies. Then I realized the MP7 is pretty cumbersome and heavy for gigging (doable, certainly, but [a] I'm bringing saxophones and [b] I may be in NYC and subways, etc.).

So I've been shopping for a lightweight for gigs only, and thinking about returning the MP7 to pay for it, which I really don't want to do.

But this revelation gives a whole new reason to keep the MP7!

Not to mention drumming up the bread for a lightweight somewhere else....

Oh well, my tenor and soprano sax mouthpieces cost nearly as much as an MP7...

- Jeff


"Music Is Inherently Evanescent. Once You Play It, It's Gone In The Air" ~ Eric Dolphy

Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone (1973), Selmer Mark VI Alto Saxophone (1956), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Saxophone (1987), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (2013), Kawai 11, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (1969).
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