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Another headphones question thread
#2399936 03/19/15 02:00 AM
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Hi,

I'm looking at getting headphones to use with my Kawai MP10. I was wondering: what is the likelihood that good headphones will uncover flaws in the sound? I currently play through 5" JBL monitors and am satisfied with the tone, especially when my head and the speakers are at just the right position. So my question is if it makes sense to use entry-level high end headphones with stock Kawai sounds.

General info:
I am thinking about the AKG K240 based on price, history, and reviews. There seems to be the least amount of complaints, and it seems like a solid choice where I shouldn't go wrong. My budget is $150, partly because I really have no idea if I'll like using headphones or not. I've tried 2 models of Skullcandy ear buds (junk) and a pair of Bose Quiet Comfort 16 (expensive junk) and would rather play quietly through the monitors than with the headphones. I was thinking I'd try to get the Austrian made model (MKII, $135) also for the Velour pads, but the China made model (gold) is appealing at $70.

I don't want to mess with an amp and I like the semi-open design that fits around the ears. I tried an inexpensive set of Sennheiser and think I might not like the Sennheiser sound in general. I don't think I would be happy with the knockoff K240 but for $40-50 they're almost worth trying.

Unfortunately there are not many high end headphones around here to try, only Grato which sits on the ear as opposed to around it.

Its interesting how I always seem to write way too much when I'm way too tired smile

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2399971 03/19/15 04:06 AM
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I think headphones are as personal a choice as key actions, speakers, piano tone, etc. I have AKG 240 Mk 2 and am happy with them for my use. Ohers might prefer Grado, Sennheiser, ... If you cannot try them out before purchase, make sure you can return them within a period after sale if you are not happy with them.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400041 03/19/15 08:59 AM
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Personally I've found that using better headphones on my MP10 just makes it sound better in general. It's always possible that there are issues with the MP10's sound that would bother you but not me, but I quite enjoy using my better headphones when playing.

As kind of a headphone addict, I've used: Sennheiser HD600, Sony MA900, Shure SRH840, Grado SR80i and Audeze LCD-2.


Playing since April 2010.
Kawai MP10
Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400047 03/19/15 09:19 AM
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There are a bunch of good brands to try I would just suggest looking at the impedance specification and try to keep it under 100 Ohms unless the MP10 has the setting for "high gain" on the headphone amp.

I bought Sony MDR-7506s, they are listed as 65 Ohm or something on the Sony web page. Overall, I'm very happy with them, but I'm not really sure my Kawai CN24 has a powerful enough headphone amp for them. The 65 Ohm rating seems to be misleading by Sony, the impedance is over 100 Ohm in the bass frequencies and iPhones and such and my CN24 don't seem to do a great job with the bass tones. It's noticeable playing in the lower registers. I have a headphone amp, and it improves things a great deal, but I don't like having to hook the headphone amp up to my CN24.

But if the MP10 has the setting for increasing the gain (The CN35 and the CA + CS series do) then you can use higher impedance headphones without a problem.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400052 03/19/15 09:32 AM
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Agreed, headphones are a personal choice. But it would be very helpful if on PWF there was a listing of the more popular headphones with a number code rating for example, as to why they are liked, price paid,etc.. No long winded statements re why they so wonderful. A thread similiar to the Digital Piano "Prices Paid".

Like Joe Garfield, I am looking for new phones, but in my neck of the woods, for several years now one can't try before buying, too unsanitary I'm told. Forget about returning/exchanging them, worse than unsanitary! It's actually easier to return/exchange underclothes than a pair of headphones. As well I find many, if not most electronic stores carry a very limited variety, most of which appear to be aimed for listening to CD's, at gamers, watching movies.


Re: Another headphones question thread
Tone Deaf #2400098 03/19/15 11:26 AM
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FWIW --

The AKG K240's have been around for a long time, and they get generally good reviews. But there are now two different models, and I'm not sure how different they sound.

For any headphone in the range you're considering (around $100 and up), there may be some "coloration" in the sound -- that is, frequency response that isn't flat. But they won't distort, and they'll be genuinely "full frequency range" -- certainly enough to handle an MP-10.

If you find that the sound is "colored" (to your ears), I think the MP-10 has onboard EQ. Use it.

If you like earbuds, the Shure SE215 (which I use) is _way better_ than Skullcandy and similar units. For $100, it should be!

I go back and forth between the SE215's and Sennheiser HD-280 phones. They both sound fine to me.

. CHarles

PS -- a key factor is _comfort_. The phones somebody else likes, might not fit your head well. I'm partial to large, deep earcups, so the phones don't press on my earlobes.


. Charles
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Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400101 03/19/15 11:34 AM
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Thanks folks,
I agree - there is a bunch of good info here. I am happy to hear Deffie's perception that the MP10 sounds better with headphones, especially since he's playing with some quality equipment. I also hear the comment about used headphones - I get the idea about the return policy but I like the idea of a fresh set. Buying a new set of pads could help with that I guess.

The AGK 240's are 55ohm impedence which should work OK with a DP. I will still see if I have the gain option as it could improve sound. I was looking at the AKG 612 but they would need an amp (and have a different style headband which is too bad).

I just learned that AKG is under the Harman umbrella so I think my search is over - at least which brand. I have always loved Infinity, JBL, and Harman Kardon speakers (Infinity and JBL speakers in my vehicles since 1996, JBL monitors for my Kawai) and I didn't know they were all related until recently. Now I see AKG is also in the mix so I am pretty confident I will like the general sound quality, assuming a a somewhat flat response. It would be awesome to have similar tone between the monitors and headphones, although there is a difference between tone and sound.

So at this point I'm even more focused on the K240, and trying to decide between the 'Studio' and the MKII. There are some subtle differences and the MKII comes with a few extras, but velour pads can be had for $15 so I have to consider my values and see what makes sense to me.


My friend brought over the Bose for me to try, and also a 'surprise' set to see if I could hear the difference, which he says he can't. I was thinking they were his son's studio monitors as he's a professional audio editor/musician. I used this second set and started looking for the button I accidentally switched to make the piano sound like a $5 toy. Then I looked at the label and figured it out - they were $10 Sentry headphones, LOL. Not that the Bose sounded 'good', but, wow. I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse to be able to hear tonal detail - I'll call it a blessing since I have been able to find 'good enough' in most cases, especially lately.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400104 03/19/15 11:36 AM
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I've been using the following headphones for silent practice for about 13 years, sometimes for several hours per day for months on end.

http://www.stereophile.com/headphones/grado_sr60i_headphones/index.html

During that period of time I've tried several much more expensive headphones by various manufacturers and none of them, including the more expensive Grado models, served up substantially more than would this most inexpensive Grado.

The SR60's cheap, plastic body makes them extremely light, too, so you can have them on for a few hours without much discomfort.

Lately I've been thinking that I'd like to try some in-the-ear monitors, but, because I haven't found any place that allows you demo them (and for good reason, I must admit), I haven't moved beyond the thinking stage and I continue to enjoy what personal experience so far has proved to me to be the best bang for the buck on the headphone market.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400108 03/19/15 11:51 AM
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I can't seem to edit my original post, but I wanted to correct a mistake: both newer models of the AKG k240 (s and MKII) are made in China. The older models were made in Austria and many of the pics on the web still show the Made in Austria tag.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400125 03/19/15 12:59 PM
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When testing headphones at the store, if possible, use a SINE wave sweep (available on CDs, or just make a wave file (NOT an MP3 POS) of one from 20Hz - 20kHz, and listen to each pair of headphones, including multiple pairs of the ones you like. You will instantly hear harmonic distortion, resonances, buzzes, and the like. Even the most expensive headphones can have the odd metallic buzz or major resonance.

Choose wisely.


prout

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400200 03/19/15 03:56 PM
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If you do the sine wave test, be careful with the volume - have your hand on the volume control so you can quickly reduce it if it gets too loud, as the frequency changes.

Greg.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400232 03/19/15 06:06 PM
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I have the AKG K271 MkIIs, which came with the velour pads as well - which I have to say, I find much more comfortable when I've been wearing them for a few hours, compared with the stock faux leather pads.

I considered the K240s, but prefer the more closed back design, and reputedly, flatter sound response (ie less bass) of the 271s over the 240s.

I've been delighted with them, considering their price point.

And as somebody else pointed out, I believe the Mk IIs of both models are made in China, now.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400316 03/19/15 10:25 PM
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I learned a lot today! I just went out to Best Buy and Sam Ash, where both had displays of quite a few of the models I wanted to look at. Guitar Center has some policy about not letting people try or return headphones, but that is not the case with any of the other local stores.

First I realized that anything I said above should be taken with a grain of salt! There is no way to judge any speaker or headphone without hearing it in person. It's unfortunate but true. And testing a cheaper model does not give an accurate representation of the higher end models of the same brand. I know that, I should have thought more about it. Most if not all the info from the other members above is pretty much right on.

I don't want to go into too much detail about what I tried and what I thought as I am realizing how subjective this all really is. What I like somebody else will hate, and vice versa. But I tried almost all the brands I wanted to and know I want cans that sit around my hear with at least a semi-open back and velour pads.

Where I'm at now:
*AKG K240 studio: could use more clarity and less high-end rolloff, definitely less lower-mid hump, and wider sound stage. Sounds like a lot to ask for but really they sounded nice, just dominated by a bad lower tone. Maybe the K612 or k702?

*Sennheiser HD558: could use a touch more clarity and less rolloff at both ends - primarily a touch more high end. Best sound stage though, and had a richness that was almost addicting. Hopefully the 598 will deliver?? 600 is expensive.

*Open back, velour padded Sony?? Probably wishful thinking. Price point is attractive and overall tonal representation was the best of anything - maybe perfect??

Shure and Audio Technica had nice equipment but not really my kind of sound. Maybe better with an open ear design, I'm not sure, but they were quality headphones.

Last edited by Joe Garfield; 03/19/15 10:29 PM.
Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400336 03/19/15 11:21 PM
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Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400359 03/20/15 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Garfield
I learned a lot today!

First I realized that anything I said above should be taken with a grain of salt! There is no way to judge any speaker or headphone without hearing it in person. . . .

I don't want to go into too much detail about what I tried and what I thought as I am realizing how subjective this all really is. What I like somebody else will hate, and vice versa. . . .


Well, you're coming along quickly!<g>

One possibility we left out -- the Sony MDR7506. They're closed-back, designed for studio use, and get good reviews. And they fit Beyerdynamic earpads.

But as you know, _your_ ears are what counts.

FWIW:

The warning I got, from a headphone-store salesman, on the AKG K240 (the new ones) was that they're tough to drive with battery-powered gear (iPods, etc), but no problem with AC-powered gear (like DP's).

And that's why you can't buy them in "consumer audio" stores, like his.

. Charles


. Charles
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Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400438 03/20/15 06:26 AM
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Joe, you may also find the resources I put in this post.

headphone data

of help.


At least I found once you have listened to several phones of several types you begin to sort of calibrate your ears and get idea from the links how these headphones respond to your own ears. I found it to be veeery useful over time, notably the write up in the in response to the square wave test for each type of phone I find to be spot on on the whole.

I can look at those graph and almost certainly would find the sony mdr 7506 a fairly boring headphone to listen to ( for my ears ), not that it is bad, but the graphs tell the story this is a fairly mid centric phone in its response, not dissimilar to the V6 which I have also heard, bass lacking too and the shape in the low frequency test are telling that bass response quality will be not that good. Whenever I see headphones with that kind of square wave response I pretty much know what I am going to hear in he bass area to a fairly good approximation before I even try them.

Another note, The reason headphones are often picked to be popular in studio mixing is not for their nice sound per se, but for critical detailed listening, as is the case with studio monitors. I always bear this in mind to get a good balancing act in a phone or speaker that pleases my ears as much as anything as well as being detailed and clean sounding.

Have fun in the hunt smile


Selftaught since June 2014.
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Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400472 03/20/15 08:11 AM
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Charles, you are absolutely right - I had tried the Sony MDR 7510 and that was the one I liked the most (regarding the most true sound, to my ears).

Alexander, thank you. That is just what I was looking for. The frequency response curves seem to depict very closely what I heard. The Sony could be 'boring' but to me, they were the set that added the least amount of color - not warm, not scouped, not bright (note: I listened to the MDR 7510 which has bigger driver and is more sensitive, supposedly with better bass than 7506). It was very similar to my impression of my JBL monitors when I tested them in the store.

I will play some more with the data and hopefully get back to try the Sony again today.

Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400533 03/20/15 10:24 AM
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The sony 7506 are well regarded or good reasons, they are flat, as you say it is taste as well, in spite the sort coming in treble and bass as shown on the various plots it is a popular set in studios ( historically anyway).

I would always be hesitant to advice what I think one should buy and try for oneself as it is personal preference too.

As another couple of examples, many of the sennheiser models I find uninspiring, but again ,many of those are well thought of, for good reasons, but they are a bit too laid back and veiled for my liking, the data reflects it too as the 580 shows, this page has some interesting discussion where they are mentioned.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-two

I know what my sort of target curve is what constitutes a natural and pleasing cleaning sounding earphone for my ears, and also what I like to see in the square wave tests to know what the low and high freq qualities going to be like, and a bunch of other details, refining knowledge all the time as I go.

As it happens my impression in terms of preferences are very close to the that of the guy that writes many of these articles, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree with his or my taste.

Another example in popular headphones that has a cult following is grado, but I don't like them for general use, they do have some nice qualities, in certain areas, but as it happens the reasons why he doesn't like them seems to be is exactly what I find with them too, but in the end, each to their own smile

Personally, I don't like phones that are flat or roll off in the bass too much for a nice sound, to me it sounds too thin, I like a bit of emphasis in the bass, not too much, not to the point it overbears, and the treble not too emphasized and strident. Often the better bass response headphones will also have healthier looking square wave response test in the low frequencies, but there are exceptions to every rule.

Personally I am fan of the audio technica m50 athx right now, for the price I find these are the best allrounders for me for a pleasing sound, detail, and so on. They are not perfect by any means, and not the flattest either, but bang for the buck, for general listening, software pianos, they do a fine job for me. They are a bit bumped in the bass, but I never see a little too much quality bass response in a phone as a problem area, it can be EQd down when needed, mostly I just leave it. The opposite is not true however, you can't get back what isn't there.

As an extreme case, try to get any sort of decent bass out of a grado prestige open back is impossible without appreciable distortion kicking in even at fairly low listening volumes, the drivers can't keep up to keep a clean sound, again, the square wave tests clearly back up the poor bass response findings.

My dream headphone would take lot of the qualities from the ath-m50x headphone, improve a little on what is good already. If it had better treble response, and a better sound stage, it would be pretty close to my ideal target, to get all that we are talking bigger bucks though. smile




Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/20/15 10:31 AM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
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Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400548 03/20/15 10:59 AM
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Alexander, thanks for the detailed response/explanation. I think I very much agree with you on most parts. What might be setting the difference in our tastes is my perception of what my piano should sound like. I agree that the Sony lacks some bass (again the 7510 should have more than the 7506) but I was thinking yesterday that the low frequency roll off is at or below the low frequency range of what I want to hear from the piano.

Now that being said, I didn't have a sample with the lowest notes played so maybe I should be careful with that.

I need to play with those graphs a bit - at first look I felt they very accurately depicted what I heard in the store, but I don't know anything about the sound level or whatever setting it had on 30dB, nor have I looked at the other curve shapes.

I thought the ATH-m50x had really good sound. the bass was a bit emphasized for what I was expecting my piano to sound like - but that could be associated with the fact that they are closed cans. I would love to try the open backed headphones but I can't find them locally. Open back with a little better treble response and more sound stage and they would be close to perfect.

I wish I could try the Senn 598's. I think the 558's added a ton of color, but it was a warm and rich color and I can see why people love it. I feel like the idea is to stay away from adding color, but the Sennheiser color is almost like rose-tinted lenses for your ears.


Last edited by Joe Garfield; 03/20/15 11:01 AM.
Re: Another headphones question thread
Joe Garfield #2400549 03/20/15 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Garfield
Alexander, thanks for the detailed response/explanation. I think I very much agree with you on most parts. What might be setting the difference in our tastes is my perception of what my piano should sound like. I agree that the Sony lacks some bass (again the 7510 should have more than the 7506) but I was thinking yesterday that the low frequency roll off is at or below the low frequency range of what I want to hear from the piano.

Now that being said, I didn't have a sample with the lowest notes played so maybe I should be careful with that.

I need to play with those graphs a bit - at first look I felt they very accurately depicted what I heard in the store, but I don't know anything about the sound level or whatever setting it had on 30dB, nor have I looked at the other curve shapes.

I thought the ATH-m50x had really good sound. the bass was a bit emphasized for what I was expecting my piano to sound like - but that could be associated with the fact that they are closed cans. I would love to try the open backed headphones but I can't find them locally. Open back with a little better treble response and more sound stage and they would be close to perfect.

I wish I could try the Senn 598's. I think the 558's added a ton of color, but it was a warm and rich color and I can see why people love it. I feel like the idea is to stay away from adding color, but the Sennheiser color is almost like rose-tinted lenses for your ears.


Given what you seid in your last paragraph, consider the AKG K271s - precisely the reason I love them is that they don't really sound as if they're altering the "color" of the sound much at all.

For me, I want the headphones I use with my digital pianos to be as realistic and un-enhanced as possible. That's not necessarily the same traits I'd look for in a headphone for general music listening - although in fairness, I'm really not that interested in emphasised bass in headphones.

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