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Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
#2396986 03/11/15 11:32 PM
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According to Kawai website

CA97/CA67 have "88 wooden keys with Ivory/Ebony key surfaces, Grand Feel II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor."

CA95/CA65 have "88 wooden keys with Ivory Touch key surfaces / Grand Feel (GF) action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor."

Isn't that like the same thing?

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2396997 03/12/15 12:09 AM
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The ebony keys feel nicer and they have a deeper colour. That's the difference.

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397000 03/12/15 12:20 AM
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8 Octaves, please compare the two action reference images below:


Grand Feel (CA95/CA65, MP11)

[Linked Image]




Grand Feel II (CA97/CA67)

[Linked Image]




The GFII action offers the following improvements over GF:

- Ebony Touch black key surfaces
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
- Richer colour for black keys
- Moisture absorbency for black keys
- Revised hammer shape and weight (optimised centre of gravity, improves dynamic load)
- Counterweights on all 88 keys, graded from bass to treble
- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397004 03/12/15 12:34 AM
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Cool, thanks, ando, and for the details James!

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Kawai James #2397034 03/12/15 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

The GFII action offers the following improvements over GF:

- Ebony Touch black key surfaces
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
- Richer colour for black keys
- Moisture absorbency for black keys
- Revised hammer shape and weight (optimised centre of gravity, improves dynamic load)
- Counterweights on all 88 keys, graded from bass to treble
- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point

Interested in hearing some feedback on this - the dynamic load and let-off changes could be big news. The new shape of the black keys - wider or narrower, I wonder? Does anyone know if black RM3-II = black GF?

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
dire tonic #2397037 03/12/15 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
The new shape of the black keys - wider or narrower, I wonder?


The top part of the key is a little wider, but only by a fraction of a millimetre. The new camber/shape is more significant in my opinion...but again, the change is still very subtle.

Originally Posted by dire tonic
Does anyone know if black RM3-II = black GF?


Yes, I believe so. The GFII black keys use a specially made mould.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397066 03/12/15 05:08 AM
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- thanks, James. Depending on the camber a slightly wider black key could make targeting big-leap black keys with the pinky just that tiny bit easier - a problem I've come up against with a Schumann piece I'm currently murdering.

Looking forward to hearing players' reports of GFII.

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397230 03/12/15 03:30 PM
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Excellent info + nudie pix! Thanks James!

Wouldn't it be great if the other manufacturers were as forthcoming regarding the details of their key actions? </dreaming>

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397237 03/12/15 04:11 PM
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Hey James,

Are these a big step up over the RM3s on the VPC1? I had a VPC1 but had to return it because the keys were super sluggish compared to what I was used to (especially when releasing the key).

Are these quicker to come up, more like an acoustic piano?

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2397262 03/12/15 05:29 PM
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Out of interest, does Kawai use the same moulded wood-effect on the black keys of its acoustic grands?


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Tralexer #2397320 03/12/15 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Octaves_Up
Are these a big step up over the RM3s on the VPC1?


Well, the GF/GFII action's key sticks and key pivot are longer than on the RM3 Grand action. This improves the weighting of the keyboard, and for a number of players was a reason to upgrade. However, these things are incredibly subjective - I'm afraid I cannot tell you if you'll prefer GF/GFII to RM3 Grand any more than I can say which two pairs of shoes will feel more comfortable on your feet.

Originally Posted by Octaves_Up
I had a VPC1 but had to return it because the keys were super sluggish compared to what I was used to (especially when releasing the key).


That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
lolatu #2397415 03/13/15 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Out of interest, does Kawai use the same moulded wood-effect on the black keys of its acoustic grands?


No, I don't believe so.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Kawai James #2397536 03/13/15 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ya its got great reviews, but I've noticed other people mentioning the sluggish feel (a couple sweetwater reviews, and one professional review I believe). For my Behomia, I definitely love the action, but its not too different from other mid range uprights.

If I lift my finger off any key on the bohemia, the key returns the top far quicker than on the VPC1. My piano teacher even tried the VPC1 and, although she was extremely impressed with it (its crazy a midi controller feels that real), she said the exact same thing, that the keys were slow. Maybe it was just mine. There's a video on YouTube of a guy improving the speed on his CA95, but supposedly his was because of dirt.

Either way, I still absolutely love Kawai products, and am still hoping to pick up a CA97 when they finally get through the Long Beach harbor. Going to go try a CA95 tomorrow.

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Tralexer #2397548 03/13/15 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Octaves_Up
Originally Posted by Kawai James
That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ya its got great reviews, but I've noticed other people mentioning the sluggish feel (a couple sweetwater reviews, and one professional review I believe). For my Behomia, I definitely love the action, but its not too different from other mid range uprights.

If I lift my finger off any key on the bohemia, the key returns the top far quicker than on the VPC1. My piano teacher even tried the VPC1 and, although she was extremely impressed with it (its crazy a midi controller feels that real), she said the exact same thing, that the keys were slow. Maybe it was just mine. There's a video on YouTube of a guy improving the speed on his CA95, but supposedly his was because of dirt.

Either way, I still absolutely love Kawai products, and am still hoping to pick up a CA97 when they finally get through the Long Beach harbor. Going to go try a CA95 tomorrow.


What you need to do is turn the VPC1 180 degrees and glue it to the ceiling.

My sense of humour is off today, but sir Isaac would have been proud of this solution and discovered gravity laugh


Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/13/15 12:14 PM.

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Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Alexander Borro #2397573 03/13/15 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
What you need to do is turn the VPC1 180 degrees and glue it to the ceiling.

My sense of humour is off today, but sir Isaac would have been proud of this solution and discovered gravity laugh


Hah, as if my music studio wasn't already hectic enough, sure why not I'll add a keyboard to the ceiling! :P

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Kawai James #2509609 02/11/16 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point


This is an interesting (and valuable) tidbit I've yet to see anywhere else.

Thanks, James.

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
Mental Nomad #2509850 02/12/16 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mental Nomad
Originally Posted by Kawai James

- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point


This is an interesting (and valuable) tidbit I've yet to see anywhere else.


There are two (2) other digitals that can trigger sound from the "let-off" (i.e., escapement point) as I currently own both of them and they are:

1) Clavinova CLP-990 (made in 2001)

2) Roland V-Piano

Question:

I find it interesting that Yamaha has not carried over this feature in the later models which include the Clavinova CLP-480 and CLP-585 of which I have owned and now have, respectively. The latest CLP-585 does not have this feature yet the older CLP-990 does -- wonder why?

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
pv88 #2509892 02/12/16 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pv88
Question:

I find it interesting that Yamaha has not carried over this feature in the later models which include the Clavinova CLP-480 and CLP-585 of which I have owned and now have, respectively. The latest CLP-585 does not have this feature yet the older CLP-990 does -- wonder why?


Having read your question, I went over to my Yamaha C3X to find the let-off point for several keys then press hard down from there resulting in a very small sound, very quiet and muted. It produced barely any tone. It's not a good kind of tone, and there is no reason to want to play a piano this way. You want the soft sounds to be warm and relax, not short and tense. I don't see why you would choose to play with this effect except for some specific modern repertoire perhaps. The answer to your question, is that just because a piano could make certain sounds under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's desirable nor pianistic. If I slam the dampers against the strings it produces a specific sound, so why don't DP makers put that into DP's? Maybe because you're not supposed to slam the pedal / dampers to begin with, but it's possible on a real piano.


Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves #2509896 02/12/16 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
[quote=pv88]If I slam the dampers against the strings it produces a specific sound, so why don't DP makers put that into DP's? Maybe because you're not supposed to slam the pedal / dampers to begin with, but it's possible on a real piano.



but they do! try slamming a pedal on Kawai CA series.... My understanding is Kawai went down the road of emulating AP as much as they can, for good or bad.

Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
alerique #2509905 02/12/16 05:03 PM
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Yup, did try it on a CA97/67. Nothing to write home about. Try slamming the damper on a RX7....

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