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Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2395900 03/09/15 02:08 PM
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You do seem to be getting a little hot under the collar. I'm afraid you'll have to pardon me (or not as the case may be) if I've little interest bandying words with the inexperienced. Take my advice or don't, that's your prerogative. As I said before - maybe you're in the wrong forum?

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2395907 03/09/15 02:20 PM
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chopin r us, all I did was say how ridiculous your claim was, and I was supported by the vast majority here and on another thread, that's all. IIRC, you're the one who replied to this thread, weren't you? And weren't you the one who spread a lot of BS regarding required standards for people with a 'good basic foundation'?

In any case, I'm sure I would rather not receive advice from someone who actually believes in that.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2395909 03/09/15 02:23 PM
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Hakki, as much as you hate me, please understand that I'm only practicing some exercises from etudes simply as exercises! So instead of playing a thirds scale for example, I just do it chromatically in the key of G#m since I recognize the music (a little at least, at that tempo).

It's a good idea to practice Bach as well. I don't know why you so often hate to give advice but rather criticize instead. Thank you for the Bach suggestion, although for some reason I feel what I say is bound to fall on deaf ears.

I usually practice scales and arpeggios when I work on a classical piece. I practice the scales/arpeggios/exercises in that key, and make exercises out of the passages in the music.

Please understand (you and others) that I'm not planning on performing the etudes up to tempo, but simply making technical exercises out of passages of them at a slow tempo.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2395911 03/09/15 02:29 PM
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“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
― Benjamin Franklin

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pogorelich. #2395923 03/09/15 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
I read that Liszt was at the premiere of Islamey given by Nikolai Rubinstein, and that when N.R. was finished playing the work, Liszt then made his way onto the stage and performed it flawlessly from the memory of the premiere performance. This is according to both Balakirev and N.R., both of whom may have felt quite diminished, and maybe quite awe inspired, by Liszt's impromptu performance.

I think Liszt could have studied Sorabji's music from the score and performed it adequately on that basis.

To anticipate such feats from 99.999% of pianists other than Liszt doesn't seem plausible, in my opinion.


Also, was that REALLY true?? Was it really "flawless"? I kind of doubt it!!

If there ever was a good candidate for such a task, it was Liszt. He was at the very top as a pianist, a composer and an improviser - and also was reputed to be an accurate sight reader of orchestral scores. The opponent of Thalberg in a public piano duel [who used Thalberg's own music for part of it] and the composer of the B Minor Sonata S. 178 was without fear of challengers or challenges.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pogorelich. #2395930 03/09/15 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Of course the etudes help technique. Not just speed, but helps control immensely. I remember a time in my undergrad when I was working on about 10 of them (only performed 3 in public ever). In my opinion, that's about the only good thing they're for.


They're great for developing masterful technique, but one should already have a very good foundation before working on them to get the full benefits, I think. I'm not a huge fan of going to concert to hear Chopin etudes, although a small selection make a nice portion of a program, and some make delightful and impressive encores.

Musically, I feel like they're short charachter pieces, almost all in the same form and same general structure. While other composers have etudes that are longer and more musically expansive, that doesn't really diminish the value of Chopin's etudes. There's room for everyone grin

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2395949 03/09/15 04:12 PM
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Hahaha I know, but I'd rather put my efforts in Liszt or Rachmaninov etudes wink



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Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Michael Sayers #2395973 03/09/15 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

I think Liszt could have studied Sorabji's music from the score and performed it adequately on that basis.

To anticipate such feats from 99.999% of pianists other than Liszt doesn't seem plausible, in my opinion.

Would recommend Charles Beauclerk's book 'Piano Man: Life of John Ogdon'. As you know, Ogdon performed and recorded the Opus clavicembalisticum, but even more interesting are the numerous accounts of Ogdon's astounding sight-reading ability in the most complex of piano music and orchestral scores.

I would say Ogdon was probably the equal of Liszt in that respect.


Jason
Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
argerichfan #2395993 03/09/15 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

I think Liszt could have studied Sorabji's music from the score and performed it adequately on that basis.

To anticipate such feats from 99.999% of pianists other than Liszt doesn't seem plausible, in my opinion.

Would recommend Charles Beauclerk's book 'Piano Man: Life of John Ogdon'. As you know, Ogdon performed and recorded the Opus clavicembalisticum, but even more interesting are the numerous accounts of Ogdon's astounding sight-reading ability in the most complex of piano music and orchestral scores.

I would say Ogdon was probably the equal of Liszt in that respect.

Ogdon was a phenomenal sight reader, but he couldn't destroy a piano with a few swift chords as Liszt could do. wink

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Michael Sayers #2395994 03/09/15 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

I think Liszt could have studied Sorabji's music from the score and performed it adequately on that basis.

To anticipate such feats from 99.999% of pianists other than Liszt doesn't seem plausible, in my opinion.

Would recommend Charles Beauclerk's book 'Piano Man: Life of John Ogdon'. As you know, Ogdon performed and recorded the Opus clavicembalisticum, but even more interesting are the numerous accounts of Ogdon's astounding sight-reading ability in the most complex of piano music and orchestral scores.

I would say Ogdon was probably the equal of Liszt in that respect.

Ogdon was a phenomenal sight reader, but he couldn't destroy a piano with a few swift chords as Liszt could do. wink


You must be extremely old if you're able to compare the two.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2396102 03/10/15 12:43 AM
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I hope I didn't engender Pover's Etude question. I mentioned using Chopin Etudes to maintain technique, recalling Ruth Slenczynska's bio: she had trained at a high level and could play them, and with little time to practice during a hiatus for many years, she depended on the Etudes to maintain her technique. Agree with Hreichgott that for someone, even a remarkably-adept auto-didact young-adult someone, three years+++ into piano (self!) study, the Etudes are probably out of reach. My teacher did not introduce them until after my 9th year of study. Makes more sense to "use" something you can master. As for technique, essentials are still 24 scales, in 3rds, sixths, 10ths, parallel and contrary, scales in double 3rd and sixths, arpeggios, scales in octaves. Hanon and Czerny. There are lots of more interesting exercises (no one mentions the Brahms exercises).

If I had to pick a more accessible Chopin Etude to "use" for exercise, would probably pick Op 25 no. 1, or no. 12 (don't tell Hakki...!) Hard to beat Chopin preludes #3 and #22 for left hand: would do both before Op 10 no. 12. Mozkowski Etudes op72 could work as technical exercises, or several-measure portions of them. Also Mozkowski Op. 92 Etudes for left hand alone. Others have mentioned Bach Preludes and Fugues, and Scarlatti sonatas, which have plenty of finger-fatiguing potential.

Someone mentioned the "Tausig exercise" : 5-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 5-3 etc, simultaneous both hands. Used to do this in down time (riding bus/car/plane, waiting in a chair or in a line) on a table, on my thighs, as simultaneous as possible.


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Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
doctor S #2396114 03/10/15 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by doctor S
If I had to pick a more accessible Chopin Etude to "use" for exercise, would probably pick Op 25 no. 1, or no. 12 (don't tell Hakki...!)

Opus 25 No. 12 ... more accessible? Are you sure you're not confusing it with Opus 10 No. 12 ?? grin


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Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Michael Sayers #2396117 03/10/15 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Hahaha I know, but I'd rather put my efforts in Liszt or Rachmaninov etudes wink


Fair point.
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

I think Liszt could have studied Sorabji's music from the score and performed it adequately on that basis.

To anticipate such feats from 99.999% of pianists other than Liszt doesn't seem plausible, in my opinion.

Would recommend Charles Beauclerk's book 'Piano Man: Life of John Ogdon'. As you know, Ogdon performed and recorded the Opus clavicembalisticum, but even more interesting are the numerous accounts of Ogdon's astounding sight-reading ability in the most complex of piano music and orchestral scores.

I would say Ogdon was probably the equal of Liszt in that respect.

Ogdon was a phenomenal sight reader, but he couldn't destroy a piano with a few swift chords as Liszt could do. wink


Well, pianos were probably more destructible back then than they are now, too. Although, I'm not arguing your point; Liszt was by most accounts, from another planet when it came to pianism.

I wonder how much is exaggerated over time? Many mysteries about the great artists that existed before the recording era.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
doctor S #2396128 03/10/15 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by doctor S
I hope I didn't engender Pover's Etude question. I mentioned using Chopin Etudes to maintain technique, recalling Ruth Slenczynska's bio: she had trained at a high level and could play them, and with little time to practice during a hiatus for many years, she depended on the Etudes to maintain her technique. Agree with Hreichgott that for someone, even a remarkably-adept auto-didact young-adult someone, three years+++ into piano (self!) study, the Etudes are probably out of reach. My teacher did not introduce them until after my 9th year of study. Makes more sense to "use" something you can master. As for technique, essentials are still 24 scales, in 3rds, sixths, 10ths, parallel and contrary, scales in double 3rd and sixths, arpeggios, scales in octaves. Hanon and Czerny. There are lots of more interesting exercises (no one mentions the Brahms exercises).

If I had to pick a more accessible Chopin Etude to "use" for exercise, would probably pick Op 25 no. 1, or no. 12 (don't tell Hakki...!) Hard to beat Chopin preludes #3 and #22 for left hand: would do both before Op 10 no. 12. Mozkowski Etudes op72 could work as technical exercises, or several-measure portions of them. Also Mozkowski Op. 92 Etudes for left hand alone. Others have mentioned Bach Preludes and Fugues, and Scarlatti sonatas, which have plenty of finger-fatiguing potential.

Someone mentioned the "Tausig exercise" : 5-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 5-3 etc, simultaneous both hands. Used to do this in down time (riding bus/car/plane, waiting in a chair or in a line) on a table, on my thighs, as simultaneous as possible.


doctor S, thanks for the great post. You didn't really put the idea in my mind, but I just thought of it as a side exercises. I'm now convinced that it's probably a bad idea, and I'll look into some of the etudes/exercises you and Heather mentioned.

I'll check out the mozkowski Etudes, but I've heard some of them are quite difficult and require extremely light finger-work. I might also add in a Chopin prelude/Bach partita or P&F as well.

Thank you all for the suggestions smile

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2396136 03/10/15 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Pover


I'll check out the mozkowski Etudes, but I've heard some of them are quite difficult and require extremely light finger-work. I might also add in a Chopin prelude/Bach partita or P&F as well.



Moszkowski also wrote 20 short etudes, op. 91, that are a little less demanding than those already mentioned, but are still useful. They might a good preparation for the others.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Orange Soda King #2396142 03/10/15 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
I wonder how much is exaggerated over time? Many mysteries about the great artists that existed before the recording era.

As you say, much is written and nothing is recorded in audio. Supposedly the piano playing styles of the past were less smooth than those of today, especially back before Beethoven. Beethoven, who had heard Mozart perform, said that Mozart's playing was "choppy".

When I listen to something like the Benedictus from Liszt's Requiem I tend to "forget" about him as a pianist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnjauJquWfw#t=35m16s

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pover #2396143 03/10/15 03:21 AM
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I've read that the original tempo marking for Op. 10 No. 3 was Vivace. Maybe someone here knows of an original tempo recording.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
BruceD #2396155 03/10/15 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by BruceD

As far as the vintage piano solo version is concerned, there's just too much left hand before right hand for my taste, because it becomes a mannerism.

Regards,


I've read somewhere that all piano music from this era should be played that way.


Funny! I've read the same thing. Now, In wonder where that was ....

Cheers!

Hi Bruce,

I wasn't thinking about this earlier, but the pianist for the piano audio in the movie The Lost Zeppelin [1929, Tiffany Pictures] was Ervin Nyiregyhazi. Here it is set to where he plays the Liebestraum No. 3. He seems to have been much more of a chord roller and player of one hand before the other than even Frank la Forge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNTU6Ogoudw#t=00m49s

The man sitting at the piano in the clip is Ervin although, of course, the audio of his playing was recorded separately from the filming of the scene.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
doctor S #2396223 03/10/15 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by doctor S
Hard to beat Chopin preludes #3 and #22 for left hand: would do both before Op 10 no. 12.


I was assigned both preludes early in my studies and they are good enough that I return to them periodically. The etudes I only recently started to dabble in but I still don't get a whole lot out of them at my level. When I return to Chopin I'm pretty sure it will be for the Preludes.

Re: Using Chopin etudes to develop technique (my opinion here)
Pogorelich. #2396367 03/10/15 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Hahaha I know, but I'd rather put my efforts in Liszt or Rachmaninov etudes wink


Haha that's what I used to think, but now I am addicted to 10-1 10-2 and 25-6 and that's about half my practice time. For some reason I find it extremely fun, but playing it for other people makes reality a bit more clear; no one ever likes hearing me play Chopin etudes.

Though, I'm nearly up to full tempo (144) for 10-2, so I'll probably stop practicing it so much when I get there.

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