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3 against 2. How to learn, practice? #2388849
02/20/15 06:51 PM
02/20/15 06:51 PM
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ster100 Offline OP
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How to exercise 3 against 2 rhythm ?

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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2388868
02/20/15 08:03 PM
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Saint-Saens Etude, op. 52, no. 4.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: wr] #2388873
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Originally Posted by wr
Saint-Saens Etude, op. 52, no. 4.
Sorry, but I think that's way too difficult for 99% pianists and virtually impossible for someone who wants to learn how to play 2 against 3.

I think if the OP uses the aearch function they will find quite a few threads on this topic. Also, one could look in the Adult Beginners Forum.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2388886
02/20/15 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ster100
How to exercise 3 against 2 rhythm ?

Are you working on a specific piece that incorporates this polyrhythm?


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2388893
02/20/15 09:58 PM
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There are many phrases that people use to figure out the rhythms such as those suggested in Wikipedia:

A common memory aid to help with the 3 against 2 polyrhythm is that it has the same rhythm as the phrase "not difficult"; the simultaneous beats occur on the word "not"; the second and third of the triple beat land on "dif" and "cult", respectively. The second 2-beat lands on the "fi" in "difficult." Try saying "not difficult" over and over in time with the sound file above. This will emphasize the "3 side" of the 3 against 2 feel. Now try saying the phrase "not a problem", stressing the syllables "not" and "prob-". This will emphasize the "2 side" of the 3 against 2 feel. More phrases with the same rhythm are "cold cup of tea", "four funny frogs", "come, if you please".

Music cross-rhythm, cold cup of tea.

Similar phrases for the 4 against 3 polyrhythm are "pass the golden butter"or "pass the goddamn butter" and "what atrocious weather"

I didn't know about these phrases when I was learning polyrhythms, so I figured it out mathematically. I would pencil in lines from staff to staff to indicate where each note, left hand and right hand, was to be played. I started out slowly and worked with it until it became second nature.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2388895
02/20/15 10:08 PM
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Here's how to apply the "not difficult" Deborah was writing about :

[Linked Image]

First : Make sure that the triplets are played absolutely evenly
Second : Make sure that the second note in the left hand fits exactly between the second and third notes of the triplet.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2388921
02/21/15 12:15 AM
02/21/15 12:15 AM
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Assuming triplets in RH, duples in LH

4/4 = 12/8 time . . .

eighth, two sixteenths, eighth

ONE, two and, three

TOGETHER, right left, right

As BruceD observes, this sounds really bad with uneven triplets.
It also sounds bad with an accent on the second note of the triplets (together, RIGHT left, right), even when played evenly.



WhoDwaldi
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2389779
02/22/15 11:26 PM
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One of my teachers told me to concentrate on the left hand (assuming that it's playing the 2s) and play the right freely. It worked for me. Hope that helps.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2389788
02/23/15 12:31 AM
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Great thread, everyone!

Useful!

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2389887
02/23/15 09:04 AM
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in addition to the great advice above, be sure to practice varying the balance between the hands: louder eighths and softer triplets, then louder triplets and softer eighths. This helps check for exact evenness in each voice, and helps us hear each voice independently (that's the only thing I don't like about "not difficult" etc. -- it forces us to aurally merge the two voices into one)


Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com

Working on:
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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2389907
02/23/15 09:53 AM
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My piano teacher made me practice 2 against 3 scales... RH ascends 3 octaves doing triplets while left hand ascends 2 octaves doing duplets, and same back down. And then switch it up: hands two octaves apart, RH ascends 2 octaves doing duplets, LH ascends 3 octaves doing triplets, same back down.

I also had to do that with 3 against 4. It really isn't difficult once you get the hang of it.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: hreichgott] #2389958
02/23/15 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
the...thing I don't like about "not difficult" etc. -- it forces us to aurally merge the two voices into one

+1


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2389963
02/23/15 12:34 PM
02/23/15 12:34 PM
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For two versus three, here is a method.

Counting up to six repeatedly, this shows when the right hand vs. left hand would play in a two versus three pattern:

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 et c.
the right hand plays on one and four
the left hand plays on one, three and five

For two versus three this may work for you, and after developing it to the point of dispensing with counting you might be ready for four versus three, which has the r.h. striking twice as often . . . then one does six versus two and eventually six versus four - for developing beyond two versus three one needs to only count the "two" and "three" pulses, i.e. instead of two half notes it is four sixteenth notes, but one just would just count the half note increments - or you might count hands separately, or by then not even need to count at all.

To develop fluidity with this it is good to practice scales this way with one hand playing a different number of notes per beat than the other.

I hope this helps!

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2390072
02/23/15 05:43 PM
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Scriabin's Canon in G is all 3 vs 2. Jane MacGrath's book lists it at about a level 7, I believe.


Clair de Lune, C.Debussy
Tarantella, Pieczonka
Sonatine, No.2 Menuet - MRavel


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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2391554
02/27/15 07:41 AM
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Thanks all for reactions.
But witch piece can i use to exercise?
Not to difficult please.
A simpel piece i think.
A pdf somewhere?

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2391558
02/27/15 07:50 AM
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One of the Nouvelles etudes by Chopin is based on 3 against 2 if I remember correctly. I don't know your level, so can't tell if it's managable for you.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2391577
02/27/15 09:01 AM
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Cross rhythm scales as described by Orange Soda King above are the best exercise I know.


Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com

Working on:
Cabaret (whole show)
12+ variations from classical ballets
Verdi: Stabat Mater
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Tangos and other fun music for piano duo

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2391592
02/27/15 09:55 AM
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Chopin op 48#2.
(but I agree on the scales... it's the fastest way to get it properly)

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: Orange Soda King] #2391649
02/27/15 11:44 AM
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[quote=Orange Soda King]My piano teacher made me practice 2 against 3 scales... RH ascends 3 octaves doing triplets while left hand ascends 2 octaves doing duplets, and same back down. And then switch it up: hands two octaves apart, RH ascends 2 octaves doing duplets, LH ascends 3 octaves doing triplets, same back down.

Do you have an example on Youtube maybe?
or on sheet?

Last edited by ster100; 02/27/15 11:46 AM.
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: ster100] #2391663
02/27/15 12:31 PM
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The difficult one is 3.1 against 2 wink.

I've never seen the scales written out on paper in three vs. two. I can do it for C Major and then put it here . . . unfortunately not tonight though, or maybe tonight, we'll have to see . . .

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: Michael Sayers] #2391741
02/27/15 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
The difficult one is 3.1 against 2 wink.

I've never seen the scales written out on paper in three vs. two. I can do it for C Major and then put it here . . . unfortunately not tonight though, or maybe tonight, we'll have to see . . .


Here's an example :

[Linked Image]

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: BruceD] #2391750
02/27/15 04:18 PM
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And here is another, as a one octave span infinitely repeating pattern in each hand:

[Linked Image]

Depending on how your scales are it might be best to keep to this rather than wind up simultaneously practicing both long scales across the keyboard and 3 vs. 2.

When you are ready, transpose a bit through the keys . . .

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: vevurka] #2391787
02/27/15 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by verqueue
One of the Nouvelles etudes by Chopin is based on 3 against 2 if I remember correctly. I don't know your level, so can't tell if it's managable for you.


Yes, it's the first one! It's a wonderful étude. It's how I originally learned to play 3 against 2.
Verqueue, you can download the score here: http://imslp.org/wiki/3_Nouvelles_%C3%A9tudes,_B.130_%28Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric%29

Here it is, played by Ashkenazy:

Chopin 3 Nouvelles Etudes

Last edited by Mr. Franz; 02/27/15 06:20 PM.
Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: Mr. Franz] #2392121
02/28/15 05:50 PM
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There are plenty of Scriabin pieces to consider as well, just look at the Op. 11 Preludes. Much of that should be fairly accessible.

Re: 3 against 2. How to learn, practice? [Re: Michael Sayers] #2392129
02/28/15 06:17 PM
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Surely one of the most appealing (and easy) pieces that feature a lot of 3:2 is Debussy's Arabesque No.1......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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