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Originally Posted by toddy
Well, I just thought it was a funny story. Even so though, maybe the single point that I did make has been reinforced by your illustrations, which is that - if a computer can handle the situation - then maybe a computer will be fairer than a human being. Since human beings are always going to be subject to threats, stroppiness, assertiveness, etc etc etc

Indeed - I guess the point I wasn't sure of, was whether you were kind of implying he shouldn't have got a refund, or the inequity being that "nice" people may not.

Originally Posted by toddy
Of course we should be assertive in insisting on our rights, but we should not have to be, and some people simply don't have the personality - why should they have to?

I agree - and as you say, automated systems are much more likely to be fairer to all.

But I guess the existing problem, is that "nice", "quiet" people often don't get treated that seriously and are more likely to be fobbed off. I suspect all that happens to the obnoxious people is they get treated how customers should really be treated.

If you think about it, the daftness is the rationale that means for the longest time, it was only the stroppy, obnoxious people who tend to get decent customer service.

Originally Posted by toddy
On the other hand, as I said way back up in the thread - some customers are a pain in the arse, and cause a fair degree of grief to staff for no very good reason.

Most likely quite true.

In my experience, though, the general proportion of obnoxious, awful people, tends to be reasonably and statistically consistent across most groups - be they customers or staff.

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Happily, I thoroughly agree with everything you say. A mark of civilisation means the everyone being treated justly, whether they are strong or weak, assertive or retiring. On the other hand, life simply is not fair and never will be, and if you rail against this basic fact, you'll be miserable.

It is good to hear from Kawai James that repackaged returns have to be declared as such by the seller. However, this makes me slightly uneasy about the whole system of trying a large item at home at the sellers risk/expense. If a repackaged piano is a kind of B-Stock item, this means that the cost to the retailer of accepting returns at their own expense is going to lose them a lot of money. If they are on very tight margins, someone is having to pay for the service of no-obligation home trial. Presumably spread across all other clients, which does not seem fair. (Perhaps I've misunderstood how it works, and the buyer does bear some cost)



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Coming back to original question, here in Germany "new" means "new" at a reputable dealer. Returned items are called returned or refurbished or so and come with a discount. eBay, well, is eBay.

Amazon sometimes has returned items, I think they call them Amazon Warehouse Deals or so. I have purchased those in the past and -- as advertised -- only the package had a dent or was opened once. All fine with the article and it came with a discount.

I have also purchased Apple hardware refurbished. Could not differentiate from new, really.

Buying a returned/refurbished digital piano? Why not, if the discount fits? Something carefully assembled and disassembled can be as good as new. So as long as the description is accurate and the warranty is 100%, I see no issue.


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With regard to "on who is the cost", I think people would simply not buy some items online, if they could not return them. Therefore, then, this would not be a business option at all. As a consequence, taking the loss on the odd return is a cost of doing online sales.


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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
With regard to "on who is the cost", I think people would simply not buy some items online, if they could not return them. Therefore, then, this would not be a business option at all. As a consequence, taking the loss on the odd return is a cost of doing online sales.

A good point - and in the UK, at least, there's the distance selling regulations.

It all really goes to support the big businesses with the infrastructure, economies of scale, and other, aftermarket resale channels.

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Originally Posted by Hendrik42
With regard to "on who is the cost", I think people would simply not buy some items online, if they could not return them. Therefore, then, this would not be a business option at all. As a consequence, taking the loss on the odd return is a cost of doing online sales.


Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Few customers actually want to deal in returning goods anyway, as it's a lot of trouble. Who pays for the return shipping costs, though? If it's a piano, that's a lot of money.


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Originally Posted by Shey
Hi, as part of another thread I asked the question, 'what happens to returned DPs, with the 30 day return policy' I was wondering if there would be some discount, because to me these pianos are now 'used' and not brand new.

The person who replied, said they did often try out DPs and other instruments and retuned them in good condition in the same packaging and expected and received full recompense.

Also this person regarded this as normal practice and suggested to me if I wanted a factory brand new piano, to buy from a store and ask that they open it in front of me to show that it is actually unused and new.

I can't really accept this, somehow, If I want to buy a new piano, after much research and decision making, that I would fully expect it to be new, unused and in pristine condition. How would I know if a piano has been returned, once, twice or even three times, then sold to me as new?

I just don't get it. I understand that if a piano is not suitable and you return it in new condition that you can receive full repayment. However, the piano then is not as new! and cannot, or should not be sold as such.

I am in part directing this question to Petersw, he is also a Northerner like myself and we are picky, and I did wonder if he thinks its ok to buy a returned digital piano, which may have been returned more than once, and would you accept it as new.

Please give me your thoughts on this, anyone, I don't think I would be asking too much for a brand new item, unused, and I don't think I should have to check in store and see it opened to check the piano is brand new to me.
Shey




TBH, Shey, I`ve never heard of this 30 day return for DPs but imagine Amazon have this in their policy, maybe because of super picky Yanks (grin) who call the shots. Women order loads of stuff online, and send it back if they don`t like it or the size is unflattering (true) . .

I wouldn`t buy one that had been returned under those conditions. I would buy one from our local shop (1 mile down the road) if it was a floor model and open to public use. Because I`d have tried it meself first . . .But I`ve never bought a DP online. Nearest I got was a DGX620 which had fallen off the back of a lorry, from a shop in Bolton..

Got it cheap. Worked fine.


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I wonder if there were so many returns.
If only a few of them, the easiest would be to put the returned but good piano into a showroom?

Last edited by Jasper E.; 02/25/15 04:33 PM.

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The UK, or is it EEC, has a 14 day money back return process covered by legislation for online purchases.

I think I would be happy with a return, if I knew it was a return, perhaps described as KJ said, and perhaps with a modest discount, knowing about the legislation.

In fact I recently purchased a TV online, which was available also in stores, for a significant reduction. It was a last years model on offer to clear stocks, and the store would not honour their normal 30 day no question asked return policy, so I covered myself with the online purchase legislation. Turns out the TV was a keeper.

However I have purchased all my DP's in a local store. Only way to go IMHO, it's not technology but an instrument, and part of an ongoing relationship with the store. I also in each case purchased the very DP I played in the store. In one case it was a floor model, others I had them get it out of the box, and one other case the DP had arrived that very day and was on the floor (for just that day).

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For the vast majority of dealers, new means new. Demos, refurbished, open box items tend to marked as such.

I have bought refurbished items and open box items quite often. For the most part, I have had good experiences.

As for a huge amount of money being drained out, it might be 3% that return digital pianos. This is part of doing business. Allowing no returns would mean a bigger hit to sales than 3%. As might charging for returns.

Some other items such as laptops have a standard restocking fee of say 15%. So a person that buys it for a trip, with the full intent of returning it after the trip, has to pay to use it. Also with computers, they have to be checked very carefully after the return in case some nasty malware was installed.


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Originally Posted by toddy
Who pays for the return shipping costs, though?


I think it's a write-off.


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Musicians Friend has an 'Open Box' section on their site. They offer discount prices and divide the returned products into three categories: Mint, Blemished, or Scratch and Dent. Fair enough. So, sounds like a fair deal to me in that they are upfront about whether you are getting a straight-from-the-factory new item or a return. Every musical instrument I ever purchased online, if ordered new, arrived as new. And demos, or warehouse deals, arrived as what they were described as. Not much price difference between 'New' and "Mint', either. Even if you get a new instrument, many people at the factory and warehouse have already handled it anyway.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/open-box-musical-instruments

Amazon has a fair share of musical instruments and have what is called Warehouse Deals, and, again, certain categories of condition, such as 'New', 'Like New', 'Very Good', etc. and they specify exactly what that means.

I think any reputable online dealer would find it in their best interest to be honest about the condition of their merchandise. Its probably a very small cost of business. If someone does not like one product and returning it, they are probably ready to order something else, and most likely ordering something better and more expensive.

And, to answer the question from the previous post, the buyer pays the costs of return postage. Amazon makes it easy and simply deducts the cost of postage, supplied by their return slips you print online, from the full cost of the return.

Last edited by gracegren; 02/25/15 10:43 PM.

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I've only returned one DP. My experience with Musicians Friend was that the customer has to pay for the free shipping to the customers house and the shipping cost to return it. It's not as bad as it appears though since MF ships at a discounted rate.

In my case a $2k DP (FP80) that would cost me $100 or more to ship only cost $30 to return. MF emailed me a prepaid shipping sticker and subtracted the $30 cost of the shipping to and back from the refunded price.

The biggest hassle was repacking. Always take pix of unboxing so you'll know how it all goes back together.


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Well thank you all for your replies. I am still in a position, that I would not want a returned DP if I was buying a new one and would have to ask the question, because I would want to make sure I was receiving a new one, brand new, from the manufacturer. I am wondering, that the new Alesis Pro Coda, which is unseen as yet by many buyers, and on pre-order also, for many, as dealers are suggesting, that if many new buyers find it unsatisfactory, and want to return their piano, that it will end up in a corner where they are housed and be on offer at a reduced price or will be sent out as new to new customers. That was my original concern, and I do appreciate that some people do not mind receiving a return as long as they know it is a return, and possibly have a discount on it. However, it could be that, returns are again sent out as new items, because they are in good condition, but to me they are always returns, second hand if you will. I don't feel this question has been answered as yet.

To clarify, a local dealer in Manchester UK last year, did offer me a piano at full price, which had obviously been used and was on display, also was being offered at £180 cheaper elsewhere, as the price had been reduced by the manufacturer. They said, they would wrap it up as new and give me a 1 year guarantee. This was a Roland piano, and Roland were offering a 5 year guarantee on their pianos at this time. I was so disappointed and felt that this particular dealer was not doing a great job at all.

So, really, I am saying I have had some mis information, some bad service, and the returns thing is something we all have to watch out for. Check out what you actually want, check your pricing, then make sure you have the warranty you need. Then see if the returns policy is good for you. If you decide on a particular piano, then make sure the piano you receive is a new one from the manufacturer and all is in order.


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