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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388695
02/20/15 12:24 PM
02/20/15 12:24 PM
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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388696
02/20/15 12:27 PM
02/20/15 12:27 PM
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I know I've told this before

I had a maintenance tuning every Friday morning at the same studio that a short religious service was broadcast from. I used to go early so that I could listen to the eight professional singers rehearse the A Capella two verses of a hymn that was part of it. the director was a stickler for melodic intonation. One morning they sang a hymn that contained "slithering chromaticism" as my harmony professor termed it. A bit like ' melita', the navy hymn but i forget which one.

There was a listener who used to accompany the singers I every morning on his home organ and record it. On this particular hymn, ( he gad sent in the tape to complain that the singers were out of tune) it was evident that the singers went sharp in the middle of each verse. They finished each verse back in tune with the added "acompanent". This was doubly excellent because, not only did they employ a shifting pitch base, but they did the exact same thing twice. They were more on tune than the home organ. Now that's listening.

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conervatory students need to be rerninded and taught how to listen Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play alongside someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.

Oh, and it is not possible to tune even a simple major scale in just intonation. Take C scale for example. There will always be a difference between the D derived from G and the D derived from A as the mediant of F.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388698
02/20/15 12:35 PM
02/20/15 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




Hi Prout,

It might be hard to believe, but people happen to have different ideas, opinions, taste and feelings.

I guess we two have also a different sense of intonation, different experience on piano tuning, perhaps a different approach to music and perhaps a different way to be performing musicians.

IMO, there is no need to raise the tone of this pleasant conversation and talk about credibility. You see, I strengthen my credibility day after day, like today, with the results of my work; you are allowed to write here and remain anonymous.

Please, at least try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.



alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: rXd] #2388705
02/20/15 12:48 PM
02/20/15 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rXd
//SNIP//

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conervatory dtudents need to be rerninded and taught hos to listen Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play with someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.


rXd,

I address to you too what I posted for Prout. Also note that, in order to improve the whole intonation, I would certainly ask you to listen to other musicians, when playing together. Though I do not think we were talking about that.

So, let me give you too the same encouragement, try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 02/20/15 12:51 PM. Reason: correction

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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: alfredo capurso] #2388708
02/20/15 12:57 PM
02/20/15 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




Hi Prout,

It might be hard to believe, but people happen to have different ideas, opinions, taste and feelings.

I guess we two have also a different sense of intonation, different experience on piano tuning, perhaps a different approach to music and perhaps a different way to be performing musicians.

IMO, there is no need to raise the tone of this pleasant conversation and talk about credibility. You see, I strengthen my credibility day after day, like today, with the results of my work; you are allowed to write here and remain anonymous.

Please, at least try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.



Sorry Alfredo. You are right. I apolgize and will try to be more pleasent in the future.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388714
02/20/15 01:08 PM
02/20/15 01:08 PM
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Cheers
.


alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388721
02/20/15 01:25 PM
02/20/15 01:25 PM
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This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388739
02/20/15 02:01 PM
02/20/15 02:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,890
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Online content
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Originally Posted by prout
This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.




Sometimes I imagine tuning like drawing a circle on an uneven surface. You could draw it so it is perfect from one, but only one angle. Or you could draw it so it seems pretty round from most angles.

Subjectively, what I have noticed, is the chromatic chords sound most like each other when the SBIs sound most like each other. In other words, when the circle seems pretty round from most angles.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: UnrightTooner] #2388749
02/20/15 02:20 PM
02/20/15 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by prout
This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.




Sometimes I imagine tuning like drawing a circle on an uneven surface. You could draw it so it is perfect from one, but only one angle. Or you could draw it so it seems pretty round from most angles.

Subjectively, what I have noticed, is the chromatic chords sound most like each other when the SBIs sound most like each other. In other words, when the circle seems pretty round from most angles.

Good analogy. I like that idea.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388760
02/20/15 02:45 PM
02/20/15 02:45 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Hi Prout. Great post.

That's exactly what I've tried to do; define a realistic mathematical goal, theoretically attainable aurally so I can calculate the error of my assumptions.

I would say that on one hand I've failed miserably. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to mathematically calculate the perfect tuning. I've gotten close but there's still those P4 bouncing around.

On the other hand, I feel that I've been successful in that I've been able to get very close using assumptions that are created and identified by aural means; the octave spread.

I'm confident now that the goal of ET using octave spread as a way to define stretch and hence the m3/M3 equality, is something worth pursuing, for me anyway, and something I certainly would apply in a concert situation and be confident that it would produce superior, accurate, and precise results; the error can easily be calculated and confirmed aurally.

I had to glue a F3 hammer today so let it dry while tuning the temperament without the CM3. I was frustrated by all the back and forth I had to do. I got the SBI sounding good and then the RBI where all over the map. However, I don't think it saved me any time.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: alfredo capurso] #2388764
02/20/15 02:53 PM
02/20/15 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd
//SNIP//

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conservatory students need to be rerninded and taught how to listen. Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play with someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.


rXd,

I address to you too what I posted for Prout. Also note that, in order to improve the whole intonation, I would certainly ask you to listen to other musicians, when playing together. Though I do not think we were talking about that.

So, let me give you too the same encouragement, try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.


What on earth made you think I was talking about you? It's not all about you. You are the only one who has become abusive. ....twice!!!....I will ignore it this time.
Cool it. Say something constructive.

Anyway, I doubt anyone has heard a true just intonation from a fixed pitch keyboard instrument for the reasons I cited in my last post. Even ensembles of the finest musicians have to compromise. Coaching a wind ensemble in a passage with minor sevenths in each chord of a progression, it would be impossible to reconcile all of them without resorting to early music intonation but even then writers of early music rarely wrote a suucession of dominant seventh chords except JSB succession of minor sevenths in the pedal with alternate minor and major chords in the keyboards. . Was of the G minor prelude?Organists? Anyway, it would only work with a shifting pitch base and opportunities for that are very tightly limited with anything but a vocal ensemble and, as Prout so wisely said, even that has its limits due to range. To make my point, I went to the piano and played them a sequence of minor sevenths. Truly one of the rapidest beating intervals in ET but that rapid beating, for me, increases the urgency to resolve in that instance. They finished up using a remarkably similar size interval as the seventh passed from instrument to instrument. Some of the most remarkable musicians to ever ask for my help.

Christmas being the season for forty year old re-runs, I heard myself playin on some old TV shows over the holidays. . Unfortunately I signed over all my residuals to the musicians benevolent fund when I went to USA. Little thinking they might be keeping me in my old age. Even if they were still 100%, one show might but me a meal for two, no wine, at a reasonable restaurant.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388796
02/20/15 04:05 PM
02/20/15 04:05 PM
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Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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Originally Posted by prout
This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.





..."All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect."

IMO, that depends on what it is that constitutes "their nature". For temperaments, I would not think of "perfect", but correct. The model needs to be correct, and the execution, always considering that a piano has a dynamic 'nature'.
.


alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: UnrightTooner] #2388805
02/20/15 04:26 PM
02/20/15 04:26 PM
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Posts: 1,404
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Sometimes I imagine tuning like drawing a circle on an uneven surface. You could draw it so it is perfect from one, but only one angle. Or you could draw it so it seems pretty round from most angles.

Subjectively, what I have noticed, is the chromatic chords sound most like each other when the SBIs sound most like each other. In other words, when the circle seems pretty round from most angles.


Did you noticed that, no matter the chords? Also with chromatic CM3?

The analogy... I tend to imagine that SBIs are the diameters (the body), and RBIs the circle (the suit), though cannot immagine one without the other.
.


alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: rXd] #2388816
02/20/15 04:57 PM
02/20/15 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd
//SNIP//

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conservatory students need to be rerninded and taught how to listen. Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play with someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.


rXd,

I address to you too what I posted for Prout. Also note that, in order to improve the whole intonation, I would certainly ask you to listen to other musicians, when playing together. Though I do not think we were talking about that.

So, let me give you too the same encouragement, try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.


What on earth made you think I was talking about you? It's not all about you. You are the only one who has become abusive. ....twice!!!....I will ignore it this time.
Cool it.

Anyway, I doubt anyone has heard a true just intonation from a fixed pitch keyboard instrument for the reasons I cited in my last post. Even ensembles of the finest musicians have to compromise. Coaching a wind ensemble in a passage with minor sevenths in each chord of a progression, it would be impossible to reconcile all of them without resorting to early music intonation but even then writers of early music rarely wrote a suucession of dominant seventh chords except JSB succession of minor sevenths in the pedal with alternate minor and major chords in the keyboards. . Was of the G minor prelude?Organists? Anyway, it would only work with a shifting pitch base and opportunities for that are very tightly limited with anything but a vocal ensemble and, as Prout so wisely said, even that has its limits due to range. To make my point, I went to the piano and played them a sequence of minor sevenths. Truly one of the rapidest beating intervals in ET but that rapid beating, for me, increases the urgency to resolve in that instance. They finished up using a remarkably similar size interval as the seventh passed from instrument to instrument. Some of the most remarkable musicians to ever ask for my help.

Christmas being the season for forty year old re-runs, I heard myself playin on some old TV shows over the holidays. . Unfortunately I signed over all my residuals to the musicians benevolent fund when I went to USA. Little thinking they might be keeping me in my old age. Even if they were still 100%, one show might but me a meal for two, no wine, at a reasonable restaurant.


JSBach uses the falling 7th in the pedal in many of his realizations of the choral "Durch Adam's Fall ist ganz verderbt". He uses major, minor and diminished 7ths, which really bring home our miserable, sinning, pathetic lives. laugh
We get to blame it all on Adam though, or rather Eve.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388823
02/20/15 05:15 PM
02/20/15 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd
//SNIP//

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conservatory students need to be rerninded and taught how to listen. Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play with someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.


rXd,

I address to you too what I posted for Prout. Also note that, in order to improve the whole intonation, I would certainly ask you to listen to other musicians, when playing together. Though I do not think we were talking about that.

So, let me give you too the same encouragement, try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.


What on earth made you think I was talking about you? It's not all about you. You are the only one who has become abusive. ....twice!!!....I will ignore it this time.
Cool it.

Anyway, I doubt anyone has heard a true just intonation from a fixed pitch keyboard instrument for the reasons I cited in my last post. Even ensembles of the finest musicians have to compromise. Coaching a wind ensemble in a passage with minor sevenths in each chord of a progression, it would be impossible to reconcile all of them without resorting to early music intonation but even then writers of early music rarely wrote a suucession of dominant seventh chords except JSB succession of minor sevenths in the pedal with alternate minor and major chords in the keyboards. . Was of the G minor prelude?Organists? Anyway, it would only work with a shifting pitch base and opportunities for that are very tightly limited with anything but a vocal ensemble and, as Prout so wisely said, even that has its limits due to range. To make my point, I went to the piano and played them a sequence of minor sevenths. Truly one of the rapidest beating intervals in ET but that rapid beating, for me, increases the urgency to resolve in that instance. They finished up using a remarkably similar size interval as the seventh passed from instrument to instrument. Some of the most remarkable musicians to ever ask for my help.

Christmas being the season for forty year old re-runs, I heard myself playin on some old TV shows over the holidays. . Unfortunately I signed over all my residuals to the musicians benevolent fund when I went to USA. Little thinking they might be keeping me in my old age. Even if they were still 100%, one show might but me a meal for two, no wine, at a reasonable restaurant.


JSBach uses the falling 7th in the pedal in many of his realizations of the choral "Durch Adam's Fall ist ganz verderbt". He uses major, minor and diminished 7ths, which really bring home our miserable, sinning, pathetic lives. laugh
We get to blame it all on Adam though, or rather Eve.


Thanks, I only know basic organ repertoire. I've not heard of that one I'll look it up and save it for when I'm just too darned happy.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2389190
02/21/15 03:20 PM
02/21/15 03:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted by prout
JSBach uses the falling 7th in the pedal in many of his realizations of the choral "Durch Adam's Fall ist ganz verderbt". He uses major, minor and diminished 7ths, which really bring home our miserable, sinning, pathetic lives. laugh
We get to blame it all on Adam though, or rather Eve.


Thank you, prout, for this interesting reference. As chance would have it, I'll be playing this choral (BWV 637) in church tomorrow.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark R.] #2389211
02/21/15 04:01 PM
02/21/15 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Originally Posted by prout
JSBach uses the falling 7th in the pedal in many of his realizations of the choral "Durch Adam's Fall ist ganz verderbt". He uses major, minor and diminished 7ths, which really bring home our miserable, sinning, pathetic lives. laugh
We get to blame it all on Adam though, or rather Eve.


Thank you, prout, for this interesting reference. As chance would have it, I'll be playing this choral (BWV 637) in church tomorrow.


Excellent choice. A truly interesting clash of harmony between the hands and the feet.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2389279
02/21/15 06:43 PM
02/21/15 06:43 PM
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Farmington, MO
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Not trying to take this thread in a different direction, but I was just talking with a fellow organist last week about the fact that to me, many of Bach's harmonies sound so modern. I was playing his "Prelude No. 1" from the Well-Tempered Clavier yesterday. So much chromaticism you would think at times it were a work from the Romantic period.

Bach's sons made fun of their father's music calling it "old-fashioned." Goes to show them, I can name many more songs by J.S. Bach than I can any of his sons. He was truly ahead of his time.


Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2389305
02/21/15 07:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Southwestern Ontario
To me, JS Bach was the jazz musician of his day. His trio sonatas for organ (or pedal harpsichord more likely), if played by a modern woodwind trio, the bassoon just laying down the rhythm bass track, could be really cool, laid back music.

I taught a course in materials of music at university in which I used many of Bach's harmonizations of modal chorals. He used harmonic structures that are astoundingly modern. As you say, chromaticism is rampant in his works. That being said does not make a valid case for ET being used by Bach. On the contrary, Bach's chromaticism highlights the wonderful variety of tensions available in UT's, which are missing in ET, where every intervallic chord should sound precisely the same.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2618452
02/27/17 08:59 AM
02/27/17 08:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2
Recife, Brazil
A
Amatheus Offline
Junior Member
Amatheus  Offline
Junior Member
A

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2
Recife, Brazil
Unfortunatly I couldn't find what RBI and SBI stand for, could anyone to tell me what those are? That answer would be much appreciated.


Matheus Soares
Aspiring Piano Technician
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