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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388369
02/19/15 05:24 PM
02/19/15 05:24 PM
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Tunewerk Offline
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That was very informative, Prout. For me, that's a counter opinion to end all counter opinions.. an argument against what I thought most musicians wanted.

I have another question for you then, because ET can be stretched and compressed in different regions of the tuning. It's clear continuity is important to you.. progressive 3rds and 6ths. It's also clear that you prefer slower beating 10ths, 17ths and 24ths, especially when in the final paces of a piece, or in slow passages.

Chopin is a great example.. I relate to hearing 10ths and 17ths in integral passages, where if they beat too fast, they disturb the sonority way too much. Although, Owen Jorgensen mentioned his opinion for the reason Chopin avoided C major in most of his composing was because UT of the time was making the key of C too pure, and he was looking for more brilliance in the tone. Interpret that however you will.. pianos of that time had lower iH and softer, more subdued tone.

My question is if it is more important for you - on the modern piano - to have slower beating expanded intervals in a tuning, or slower beating smaller intervals, like 3rds and 6ths? And in what part of the compass? What about m3rds, which speed up with compression? In other words, what are the intervals of most importance to you (to be as pure, or slow beating as possible) and in what regions?

RXD.. thank you for another series of rich angles on these compromises.. very educational. I didn't see your post until I had written this one!

Last edited by Tunewerk; 02/19/15 05:45 PM.

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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Tunewerk] #2388380
02/19/15 06:06 PM
02/19/15 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tunewerk
That was very informative, Prout. For me, that's a counter opinion to end all counter opinions.. an argument against what I thought most musicians wanted.

I have another question for you then, because ET can be stretched and compressed in different regions of the tuning. It's clear continuity is important to you.. progressive 3rds and 6ths. It's also clear that you prefer slower beating 10ths, 17ths and 24ths, especially when in the final paces of a piece, or in slow passages.

Chopin is a great example.. I relate to hearing 10ths and 17ths in integral passages, where if they beat too fast, they disturb the sonority way too much. Although, Owen Jorgensen mentioned his opinion for the reason Chopin avoided C major in most of his composing was because UT of the time was making the key of C too pure, and he was looking for more brilliance in the tone. Interpret that however you will.. pianos of that time had lower iH and softer, more subdued tone.

My question is if it is more important for you - on the modern piano - to have slower beating expanded intervals in a tuning, or slower beating smaller intervals, like 3rds and 6ths? And in what part of the compass? What about m3rds, which speed up with compression? In other words, what are the intervals of most importance to you (to be as pure, or slow beating as possible) and in what regions?


Well, as a musician, what I really want is on-the-fly just intonation. (I wrote a computer programme once in 1986 to reproduce Messiaen's 'O sacrum convivium' in just intonation. I had to decide when, at each modal shift, to start adjusting intervals to keep the new tonality just and yet still end the piece at the same pitch. Very challenging, but, O My!, what a glorious sound!)

However, as a service musician, I must accept the need for transposition, and therefore even UTs are out for most of my work. I do occasionally still tune and play in Young when doing earlier works with instrumentalists.

Regarding 3rds and 6ths - yes, reasonably progressive, not absolute - the iH may require otherwise. I can hear, but not count, beats up to about 12bps. By then it is more of a light buzz. I think the beat speeds in the 5-8bps range are the ones that bother me most; very obvious; like a soprano with a way-too-fast vibrato; you are left in doubt as to which pitch she was aiming for.

Interesting comment on Chopin. I hadn't heard that. His pieces have a lot of angst in them, so more brilliance may have helped. I have argued in the past that he may have used a Vallotti variant, which would have made the remote keys playable, but very active.

Within the limits of compromise, slower major thirds and faster minor thirds are OK. I like the dark tension of the minor third.

Even though the intervals become wildly distorted at the extremes of the compass, I find I still hear, or choose to hear might be a better expression, Major triads as being, well, Major triads, and so on. As a result, the stretch that produces the most calm, resonant sounding arpeggios from bottom to top of the compass, for me, is most important.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388393
02/19/15 06:50 PM
02/19/15 06:50 PM
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Tunewerk Offline
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More great stuff.. thank you.

Originally Posted by Prout
Well, as a musician, what I really want is on-the-fly just intonation. (I wrote a computer programme once in 1986 to reproduce Messiaen's 'O sacrum convivium' in just intonation. I had to decide when, at each modal shift, to start adjusting intervals to keep the new tonality just and yet still end the piece at the same pitch. Very challenging, but, O My!, what a glorious sound!)


Very cool! This is what I wish could be achieved on a modern piano design for the 21st century! The difficulty you experienced is the same that I have thought about.. the algorithms on an auto-tuning piano would be extremely difficult to work out; to have passages end at the right intonation points while making internal shifts. A lot going on that is not easily quantifiable or predictable.

Originally Posted by Prout
..very obvious; like a soprano with a way-too-fast vibrato; you are left in doubt as to which pitch she was aiming for..


Yes; I know exactly what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Prout
..slower major thirds and faster minor thirds are OK. I like the dark tension of the minor third.


I hadn't thought of this.. the faster m3rd being more acceptable than the fast M3rd, because of the dark tension preferable in the m3rd. Very good point.

So all of this is in argument against the pure 5th (even the pure 12th, in some cases)! From experience I know that stretching the 5th to where I want it on most scales, will disturb this balance too much. Good thing that on great scales, we don't have to choose one over the other, qualitatively.

Joining this together with what RXD said, it would seem that these M3rds and their extensions are most apparent to musicians in the tenor and bass. In the temperament and treble, it isn't as apparent (with the exception of extensions). Major intonation should be as calm and pure as possible, while minor intonation should take the tension. This would lead to the conclusion that it's best to contain stretch as much as the 5th will allow, especially leading into the bass.

Good discussions.. all of this indicates that an ideal ET falls into a very, very small window. With high iH, there is no window. So much is determined by the scale..


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: alfredo capurso] #2388436
02/19/15 09:09 PM
02/19/15 09:09 PM
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rysowers Offline
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rysowers
Alfredo, this is really not true. A temperament is how an octave is divided up. If your octave is 1200 cents wide or 1203 cents wide it can still be divided into 12 equal steps leading to an even progression intervals.

This nonsense about non-beating octaves is funny to me.

If you can't hear beating in any octave in the middle of the piano you just aren't listening carefully enough.


Sorry Ryan, what is 'not true'? I am not sure I understand your post. Could you quote the lines you refer to or expand on what you mean to say?

Cheers


Oops! Sorry. I should have quoted:

Quote
And of course, making octaves size a question of preference is IMO wrong.

The method can be "preferred", not the ET octave.

In fact, that applies to all ET intervals, no room for individual preference. Some posters seem to grasp how all ET intervals are interlaced, yet other obvious facts seem to be overlooked. The very slightest 'variation' in the octave, or any other interval (edit: from where they "need" to be), will lead to a different tuning, say a different ET ratio, in the best case.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388442
02/19/15 09:41 PM
02/19/15 09:41 PM
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shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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Originally Posted by prout
Well, as a musician, what I really want is on-the-fly just intonation. (I wrote a computer programme once in 1986 to reproduce Messiaen's 'O sacrum convivium' in just intonation.


Ha!! You're singing my song. However, just intonation on a fixed pitch instrument ain't in the cards.

What is in the cards is that 3rd wobbles progressive or not, are annoying, and need to be minimized. 2 note intervals including RBI's will always be heard with some degree of annoying wobble. However, as Stopper has shown, we mostly don't listen to 2 note intervals, but some version of a triad. When the 3 notes are sounding together, when beat masking is done correctly, the effect of the 3rd wobble is greatly reduced to an apparent still point. Take away the 3rd note of the triad, with only 2 notes sounding, and the wobble comes back.

This is why I find the pedagogical exercise of trying to reconcile annoying RBI's in 2 note intervals somewhat barking up the wrong tree.

Originally Posted by prout

I think the beat speeds in the 5-8bps range are the ones that bother me most; very obvious; like a soprano with a way-too-fast vibrato; you are left in doubt as to which pitch she was aiming for.


Ditto. Really, for me its not about listening to smoothly changing beat speeds, musically, at all. Its about not being accosted with the sour wobble of RBI's in general. The 5-8 beat rates, which often result when a note in the 2nd octave is the bass of a chord and the 3rd up an octave or two, creates the most unpleasant beating. This beating is going to be present in any good tuning. So tunings will emphasize or de-emphasize different aspects of the beating, but the beating will be there and prominent musically...and, for me, highly annoying.

However!!!...

...This beating will only be in-your-face, if the 2nd octave notes are producing a nasal to slightly nasal mid partial heavy sound. This is very common in many instruments, especially small instruments. When the mid-partials predominate, it doesn't matter how you tune it, that triad, with the bass in the 2nd octave will be wobbling to beat the band. It ain't a tuning problem, its a board design problem. Free up the board to move down there, mess with the wire scaling and and the partial distribution will change towards the fundamental. This will not make the 5-8 bps go away, but it will become something a tuner learns to listen to rather than a musician being distracted by.

ji

Last edited by jim ialeggio; 02/19/15 09:44 PM.

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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388451
02/19/15 10:12 PM
02/19/15 10:12 PM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Great points Jim.

Inharmonicity corrected ET does make the RBI's of the low M3rds beat faster than the book rates. If they beat at 3 to 4 bps the book says they should it would sound like mud. With a smoothly scaled and reasonably low inharmonicity bass scale-the fifths drop down to effective zero in the bass and the M3rds are fast enough to give a tremulant effect rather than a bow-wow-wow 3bps. Also the min3rds are slower.

If we didn't have inharmonicity-the the tempering sounds you described you dislike would be worse.

I find the wider M3rds and narrower min3rds of ET greatly improves the harmonic lexicon. I love how we can modulate by root movement of thirds and that the difference in quality between major and minor is dramatized. So much more interesting than always resolving by tonic/dominate root movement.


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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: jim ialeggio] #2388462
02/19/15 10:47 PM
02/19/15 10:47 PM
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Tunewerk Offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Ialeggio
It ain't a tuning problem, its a board design problem. Free up the board to move down there, mess with the wire scaling and and the partial distribution will change towards the fundamental.


Very interesting to see how the board comes into this with your experience, Jim!

Originally Posted by Jim Ialeggio
..as Stopper has shown, we mostly don't listen to 2 note intervals, but some version of a triad. When the 3 notes are sounding together, when beat masking is done correctly, the effect of the 3rd wobble is greatly reduced to an apparent still point.


Do you know of a triad that conceals the beating of the 3rd? I'm trying to remember if I have heard a combination that tends to do this musically.


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388465
02/19/15 11:23 PM
02/19/15 11:23 PM
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shirley, MA
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It doesn't happen in the protocols that are being discussed in this thread. It happens in the context of an entire compass that is tuned either via Stopper, Virgil Smith, David Andersen, and others, where the beat masking has been worked throughout the compass. The entire compass quiets down.

Check out the last chord, but also the entire texture...Keep in mind the word "quiet" is relative. There is beating, but its apparent prominence is reduced.

quiet triad

The tuning aspect of this, aurally, involves octave/fifth/octave triads, octave/fourth/octave triads, octave/fifth/ninth. In stoppers case 3rds are not part of the aural sequence, but rather the above "triads". The stretch is accomplished without any reference to 3rds. Appropriately progressing thirds come along for the ride. Same with Andersen, if I remember correctly. Out of the temperament, the thirds are a result, and are less in-your-face.


Last edited by jim ialeggio; 02/19/15 11:25 PM.

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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: jim ialeggio] #2388475
02/20/15 12:00 AM
02/20/15 12:00 AM
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Very interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing this, Jim.

I've heard the beat cancelling effect involving the 8ve/4th/5th when the piano is tuned to the 12th at the right point, but was not aware of further implications of beat cancelling. This opens up new things to explore and listen for.

I get what you are saying about 'relative' quietness. I've wondered before if this wasn't a scaling/soundboard effect that led to favourable results in the tuning (when done very well). It certainly isn't phase cancellation.. but maybe some kind of phase smearing? I don't know. It's more interesting to me, coming from you, because you have soundboard and scale experience.

Thanks for explaining more..


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: rysowers] #2388515
02/20/15 03:37 AM
02/20/15 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tunewerk
More great stuff.. thank you.

Originally Posted by Prout
Well, as a musician, what I really want is on-the-fly just intonation. (I wrote a computer programme once in 1986 to reproduce Messiaen's 'O sacrum convivium' in just intonation. I had to decide when, at each modal shift, to start adjusting intervals to keep the new tonality just and yet still end the piece at the same pitch. Very challenging, but, O My!, what a glorious sound!)


Very cool! This is what I wish could be achieved on a modern piano design for the 21st century! The difficulty you experienced is the same that I have thought about.. the algorithms on an auto-tuning piano would be extremely difficult to work out; to have passages end at the right intonation points while making internal shifts. A lot going on that is not easily quantifiable or predictable.

Originally Posted by Prout
..very obvious; like a soprano with a way-too-fast vibrato; you are left in doubt as to which pitch she was aiming for..


Yes; I know exactly what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Prout
..slower major thirds and faster minor thirds are OK. I like the dark tension of the minor third.


I hadn't thought of this.. the faster m3rd being more acceptable than the fast M3rd, because of the dark tension preferable in the m3rd. Very good point.

So all of this is in argument against the pure 5th (even the pure 12th, in some cases)! From experience I know that stretching the 5th to where I want it on most scales, will disturb this balance too much. Good thing that on great scales, we don't have to choose one over the other, qualitatively.

Joining this together with what RXD said, it would seem that these M3rds and their extensions are most apparent to musicians in the tenor and bass. In the temperament and treble, it isn't as apparent (with the exception of extensions). Major intonation should be as calm and pure as possible, while minor intonation should take the tension. This would lead to the conclusion that it's best to contain stretch as much as the 5th will allow, especially leading into the bass.

Good discussions.. all of this indicates that an ideal ET falls into a very, very small window. With high iH, there is no window. So much is determined by the scale..


As a musician, I abhor just intonation and I think that on-the-fly intonation is a cliché.

I agree, Tunewerk, "..ET falls into a very, very small window..", and IMO the ideal ET was hidden by a huge mountain of prejudices and hallucinations, the most harmful being the idea that beats needed to be zeroed.

Originally Posted by rysowers
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rysowers
Alfredo, this is really not true. A temperament is how an octave is divided up. If your octave is 1200 cents wide or 1203 cents wide it can still be divided into 12 equal steps leading to an even progression intervals.

This nonsense about non-beating octaves is funny to me.

If you can't hear beating in any octave in the middle of the piano you just aren't listening carefully enough.


Sorry Ryan, what is 'not true'? I am not sure I understand your post. Could you quote the lines you refer to or expand on what you mean to say?

Cheers


Oops! Sorry. I should have quoted:

Quote
And of course, making octaves size a question of preference is IMO wrong.

The method can be "preferred", not the ET octave.

In fact, that applies to all ET intervals, no room for individual preference. Some posters seem to grasp how all ET intervals are interlaced, yet other obvious facts seem to be overlooked. The very slightest 'variation' in the octave, or any other interval (edit: from where they "need" to be), will lead to a different tuning, say a different ET ratio, in the best case.


So, if I understand correctly, you say that octaves can only be 'beating octave', (please correct me). I would agree, and perhaps that is why they were using the word "apparently"...

As for my description above, of how octaves develop their beating, I was referring to strip mute tuning, so only middle strings. What I describe above is something I could demonstrate at any time.

Regards, a.c.
.



alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: alfredo capurso] #2388571
02/20/15 07:50 AM
02/20/15 07:50 AM
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Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388594
02/20/15 08:37 AM
02/20/15 08:37 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Well, prout, I can't say I abhor Just Intonation. I do find it disturbing, like sickening sweet. I am sure that is only because I tune pianos. There are real dangers in it when vocal groups are singing bitonal parts and then try to get back together.


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388600
02/20/15 08:42 AM
02/20/15 08:42 AM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Many interesting comments.

My search for smoothly progressing RBI are a means to an end.

The end being what many have alluded to.

Identifying octave spread which identified the 6:3 size and accompanying m3/M3 equality creates the aforementioned beat masking chords. Read above about the Dom 7th chord in 2nd inversion for a small octave scale. Also the m7b5 chord for a medium octave scale. And the mM7 chord for the large octave scale. (Large octave scale is a much wider spectrum so doesn't fit as well. You can see the RBI in the graph are a little less smooth because if this but thankfully they are rare.

For me, the talk of RBI preference is moot. If you want the best sounding SBI, you have no choice. Consider pure 12ths. They are produced by mirroring the M17 above the temperament with the M6 within the temperament. Similarity, pure 4:2 are produced by copying the speed of the M3 in the temperament to the M10 above. And my position is that, based on octave spread, you have no choice what the best M3 and M6 speeds are for the temperament if you are going for beatless ( best sounding octaves with least movement) and progressive RBI. No choice. Certainly if you start messing with sizes not dictated by these rules, precision will suffer, and this may be just as important as musical quality; consistency.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: UnrightTooner] #2388604
02/20/15 08:45 AM
02/20/15 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Well, prout, I can't say I abhor Just Intonation. I do find it disturbing, like sickening sweet. I am sure that is only because I tune pianos. There are real dangers in it when vocal groups are singing bitonal parts and then try to get back together.


We all get used to a type of intonation, so it is understandable that one is disturbed by hearing a different intonation. Your description of Just Intonation as sweet is interesting, and I have heard vocal groups that strive for JI end up so far away from the starting pitch that the basses couldn't sing the bottom notes.

On the other hand, to listen to a truly fine string quartet, or vocal quartet or sextet, performing in JI, is eerily stunning to me.

Dr. White, in his book you have mentioned many times before, suggests always starting the tuning of an interval from a pure (just) interval in order to hear the stillness, then tempering it to the correct number of beats for ET.


Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388617
02/20/15 09:06 AM
02/20/15 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Well, prout, I can't say I abhor Just Intonation. I do find it disturbing, like sickening sweet. I am sure that is only because I tune pianos. There are real dangers in it when vocal groups are singing bitonal parts and then try to get back together.


We all get used to a type of intonation, so it is understandable that one is disturbed by hearing a different intonation. Your description of Just Intonation as sweet is interesting, and I have heard vocal groups that strive for JI end up so far away from the starting pitch that the basses couldn't sing the bottom notes.

On the other hand, to listen to a truly fine string quartet, or vocal quartet or sextet, performing in JI, is eerily stunning to me.

Dr. White, in his book you have mentioned many times before, suggests always starting the tuning of an interval from a pure (just) interval in order to hear the stillness, then tempering it to the correct number of beats for ET.



Your mention of pitch drifting when singing in JI reminds me of something disturbing that happened during a choral festival I was in in HS. I wondered then what happened, I wonder now what was the point of the director.

He had us sing a major chord, like Bass C, Tenor E, Alto G soprano E. The Bass and alto parts then went up a half step to make it a minor chord, then the tenor and Soprano up a half step to make it a major chord again, and back and forth. After going up, maybe a P4, he played the chord we were supposed to be on, on the piano. Ugh!!! We were chided for not keeping on pitch. I was sure it was everyone else, as I could hear very clearly where our pitch should be, in JI of course, which I realise now would not end up at the "correct" pitch. I wonder now what was happening to the singers with AP during this drill.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388669
02/20/15 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




I can't stand it either. It sounds dead and artificial to my ears. There's a reason why singers tend to use vibrato of around 7Hz and it's related to how our brains work (our eyes also have some involuntary motion at around that frequency).

Paul.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388681
02/20/15 11:46 AM
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Well, I guess I am in the minority, at least here on PW!

I have a friend who has 'absolute pitch' (I know, I know, let's not get into an argument about really good pitch memory). She spent a year with Tafelmusik Chamber Choir, trying to sing in Just Intonation at 415Hz (and other pitch references) , which is what they do. She had to quit because her absolute pitch was essentially an extremely accurate memory of the ETs, as a professional pianist, she had been exposed to as a child. For her, pure M3s, low 7ths, variable size M2s, was too difficult.

Jeff, chromatic scales (what your director was doing with your choir) are very, very difficult for singers. Hard to sing perfectly logarithmic semitones, and equally difficult to sing variable size semitones, unless you have AP and use it to adjust the sizes of the intervals to reach the reference pitch at the end of the exercise.

I would like to hear a piano with the key of C tuned to Just Intonation. It would be interesting to hear how the iH would affect the stretch requirements.

I like the ET on my piano, even as imperfectly tuned by me as it is. The iH gives such a nice undulation to the overall sound. The M3 beating partials, as bad as they are, at least decay eventually to a more relaxed sound.

Not so with a pipe organ - plus you have true harmonics now beating against the distorted ET intervals. Werckmeister or a close variant works much better for the majority of the organ literature.

pyropaul - Artificial is not a term I would use to describe an essentially natural harmonic sequence such as produced by a blown pipe or a bowed string or a human voice.

ET is, in fact, a completely artificial construct with regard to naturally occurring pitch relationships. Well, the only natural thing about it is the 2:1 octave ratio, and even the existence of that ratio is abhorred, I think, by Alfredo.




Last edited by prout; 02/20/15 11:51 AM.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388682
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You could use PianoTeq to model a piano in JI.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: pyropaul] #2388688
02/20/15 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




I can't stand it either. It sounds dead and artificial to my ears. There's a reason why singers tend to use vibrato of around 7Hz and it's related to how our brains work (our eyes also have some involuntary motion at around that frequency).

Paul.


Its funny, but vibrato was a construct used for a period of time in recent past history. It wasn't in use before, and is much less used, (or not used at all) except for ornamentation value, by most contemporary orchestras and singers. I'm not denying the value of vibrato, only its overuse.

It is so refreshing to go to an orchestra concert and actually hear the pitches being played. It requires better players and much more accurate intonation coordination between the woodwinds and strings, in particular.

Last edited by prout; 02/20/15 12:16 PM.
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388693
02/20/15 12:20 PM
02/20/15 12:20 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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For me. JI on a piano just sounds...I don't want to say wrong, but it does sound awful to my ears. Having said that, as a trumpet player and singer, I wouldn't dream of producing beats on purpose. That would just sound wrong.

I believe this has to do with conditioning. We have all heard beating M3's on a piano since the beginning of time. Even UT's have beating M3. We now associate those beating RBI with the tone of the instrument. Remove the beats and you remove the tone.

There are keyboards and software that tune "on-the-fly" to eliminate any beating RBI. Google it. It is an eerie sound.



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388695
02/20/15 12:24 PM
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Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388696
02/20/15 12:27 PM
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I know I've told this before

I had a maintenance tuning every Friday morning at the same studio that a short religious service was broadcast from. I used to go early so that I could listen to the eight professional singers rehearse the A Capella two verses of a hymn that was part of it. the director was a stickler for melodic intonation. One morning they sang a hymn that contained "slithering chromaticism" as my harmony professor termed it. A bit like ' melita', the navy hymn but i forget which one.

There was a listener who used to accompany the singers I every morning on his home organ and record it. On this particular hymn, ( he gad sent in the tape to complain that the singers were out of tune) it was evident that the singers went sharp in the middle of each verse. They finished each verse back in tune with the added "acompanent". This was doubly excellent because, not only did they employ a shifting pitch base, but they did the exact same thing twice. They were more on tune than the home organ. Now that's listening.

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conervatory students need to be rerninded and taught how to listen Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play alongside someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.

Oh, and it is not possible to tune even a simple major scale in just intonation. Take C scale for example. There will always be a difference between the D derived from G and the D derived from A as the mediant of F.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388698
02/20/15 12:35 PM
02/20/15 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




Hi Prout,

It might be hard to believe, but people happen to have different ideas, opinions, taste and feelings.

I guess we two have also a different sense of intonation, different experience on piano tuning, perhaps a different approach to music and perhaps a different way to be performing musicians.

IMO, there is no need to raise the tone of this pleasant conversation and talk about credibility. You see, I strengthen my credibility day after day, like today, with the results of my work; you are allowed to write here and remain anonymous.

Please, at least try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.



alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: rXd] #2388705
02/20/15 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rXd
//SNIP//

I agree that anyone who claims to be a musician but has no concept of musicians listening intently to each other and continually adjusting pitch loses credibility. I just witnessed four masterclasses from principal players from the Berlin Phil. They all emphasised listening and gave demonstrations both with piano and the student and thy playing together.

Even senior conervatory dtudents need to be rerninded and taught hos to listen Those of us who play instruments know what it is like to play with someone who is not listening but I've never come across somebody who openly amd publically prides themselves in it.


rXd,

I address to you too what I posted for Prout. Also note that, in order to improve the whole intonation, I would certainly ask you to listen to other musicians, when playing together. Though I do not think we were talking about that.

So, let me give you too the same encouragement, try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 02/20/15 12:51 PM. Reason: correction

alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: alfredo capurso] #2388708
02/20/15 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by prout
Alfredo,

Do you know what Just Intonation is?

I find it hard to believe that any person, musician or non musician, who knows and has heard Just Intonation, could abhor it.

Sorry, but from my perspective, you have just lost any credibility.




Hi Prout,

It might be hard to believe, but people happen to have different ideas, opinions, taste and feelings.

I guess we two have also a different sense of intonation, different experience on piano tuning, perhaps a different approach to music and perhaps a different way to be performing musicians.

IMO, there is no need to raise the tone of this pleasant conversation and talk about credibility. You see, I strengthen my credibility day after day, like today, with the results of my work; you are allowed to write here and remain anonymous.

Please, at least try to be tolerant and keen on learning.
.



Sorry Alfredo. You are right. I apolgize and will try to be more pleasent in the future.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388714
02/20/15 01:08 PM
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Cheers
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alfredo
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388721
02/20/15 01:25 PM
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This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.



Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: prout] #2388739
02/20/15 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.




Sometimes I imagine tuning like drawing a circle on an uneven surface. You could draw it so it is perfect from one, but only one angle. Or you could draw it so it seems pretty round from most angles.

Subjectively, what I have noticed, is the chromatic chords sound most like each other when the SBIs sound most like each other. In other words, when the circle seems pretty round from most angles.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: UnrightTooner] #2388749
02/20/15 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by prout
This has been a very interesting discussion right from Mark's OP.

We, or maybe I need to aspire to some idealized goal of how a tuning should sound, and then make the necessary compromises to achieve as close to that goal as is possible.

Without the idealized goal, how do we know what we know what we want to achieve?

I can imagine a perfect circle and then attempt to draw it. It will, of course, be imperfect, but I know that by comparing it to my ideal.

If I imagine an imperfect circle, then it would seem that any circle I draw would be a perfect representation of my imagined imperfection.

All keyboard temperaments are, by their nature, imperfect.




Sometimes I imagine tuning like drawing a circle on an uneven surface. You could draw it so it is perfect from one, but only one angle. Or you could draw it so it seems pretty round from most angles.

Subjectively, what I have noticed, is the chromatic chords sound most like each other when the SBIs sound most like each other. In other words, when the circle seems pretty round from most angles.

Good analogy. I like that idea.

Re: Yet another SBI vs RBI thread [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2388760
02/20/15 02:45 PM
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Hi Prout. Great post.

That's exactly what I've tried to do; define a realistic mathematical goal, theoretically attainable aurally so I can calculate the error of my assumptions.

I would say that on one hand I've failed miserably. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to mathematically calculate the perfect tuning. I've gotten close but there's still those P4 bouncing around.

On the other hand, I feel that I've been successful in that I've been able to get very close using assumptions that are created and identified by aural means; the octave spread.

I'm confident now that the goal of ET using octave spread as a way to define stretch and hence the m3/M3 equality, is something worth pursuing, for me anyway, and something I certainly would apply in a concert situation and be confident that it would produce superior, accurate, and precise results; the error can easily be calculated and confirmed aurally.

I had to glue a F3 hammer today so let it dry while tuning the temperament without the CM3. I was frustrated by all the back and forth I had to do. I got the SBI sounding good and then the RBI where all over the map. However, I don't think it saved me any time.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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