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Steinway on the mind #2386697
02/15/15 04:03 PM
02/15/15 04:03 PM
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Grandalf Offline OP
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I often hear people being accused of "having Steinway on the mind". That is to say, due to the legendary status of Steinway's name, people are naturally biased towards them.

I don't think it's such an irrational bias. In my personal experience, the very best pianos I've played have always been the very best Steinways. I cannot speak for Boosendorfer, Fazioli or Mason and Hamlin, as I have not played them. Shigeru Kawai, concert Yamahas, Schimmel, Estonia, and others prove, to me, to have an inferior recipe. They are obviously high end instruments, but they seem to have the lack of character that the best Steinways have. The Shigerus are especially bad by comparison - feel and sound.

Am I the only one that feels this way? Maybe I am just under the spell.

(I'm not trying to bash on anyone's taste here.)

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Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386703
02/15/15 04:10 PM
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The Steinway is the best piano, closely followed by the German pianos (headed by Bosendorfer). (And the Steinway, although now an American brand, was originally German as well.)


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386707
02/15/15 04:14 PM
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I haven't played enough Hamburg Steinway's to form an opinion. I wonder how they compare to the American ones.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Polyphonist] #2386711
02/15/15 04:20 PM
02/15/15 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
closely followed by the German pianos (headed by Bosendorfer).


Which is not German and never was, actually, as more or less everybody knows.

Last edited by maxmila; 02/15/15 04:21 PM.
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Polyphonist] #2386713
02/15/15 04:25 PM
02/15/15 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
(And the Steinway, although now an American brand, was originally German as well.)


Steinway was not originally a German brand, although the original members of the family came from Germany. I suppose that since 1888, when they opened the Hamburg plant, they could be considered German as well.


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Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: maxmila] #2386717
02/15/15 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmila
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
closely followed by the German pianos (headed by Bosendorfer).


Which is not German and never was, actually, as more or less everybody knows.

thumb

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386725
02/15/15 04:56 PM
02/15/15 04:56 PM
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I haven't played many Steinways, but there is one I play regularly that I know very well. I haven't played many Yamahas, but there are three that I play regularly and that I know very well. The Steinway sound is very gorgeous and complex. Full-figured and curvy. Mature. Been around the globe a few times. Also, there is something about the action that takes work to get used to. It's like driving a tank made by Ferrari. But once you get it sorted, you can use that complex tone palette to create many nuanced "colors." The Yamahas seem to have a much simpler action and sound. Somehow, they sound "cleaner" and "shinier." Sleek and taut. No more or less beautiful than the Steinway, but less "deep." Not vapid or vacuous; just less calculating and treacherous than a Steinway. Sincere. That's it! A Yamaha is "sincere." And Pure As The Driven Snow. The Yamaha actions of the three pianos I know (a G3, a G1 and a C3) are very responsive and direct, if that makes any sense. They do exactly what I tell them to do without me having to make special accommodations for the "inbetween-i-ness" that happens from the keys to the strings.

The other grands I know are vintage guys--two large Haddorffs that were very fine instruments in their prime, and a handsome Chickering quarter grand. The Haddorffs play and sound like liquid gold. The Chickering I have not figured out, yet, though I have been working on it for almost a year, now. I do know this about the Chickering: it is very full of itself.

All of that is to say this: If music is what happens between the notes, each piano is going to give you something to work with, and it is up to you to see what the piano will give you.

As one who has to work with the piano I'm given to work with, I'm not sure I understand the question. Each piano has its own personality. Music is found in developing a relationship with each individual instrument.

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 02/15/15 05:34 PM.

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Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Polyphonist] #2386768
02/15/15 07:19 PM
02/15/15 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
The Steinway is the best piano, closely followed by the German pianos (headed by Bosendorfer). (And the Steinway, although now an American brand, was originally German as well.)


I'm sure it's the best for delivering the Steinway sound. If that's what you prefer, go for it.

Tastes do differ, though.


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Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2386777
02/15/15 07:50 PM
02/15/15 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
I haven't played many Steinways, but there is one I play regularly that I know very well. I haven't played many Yamahas, but there are three that I play regularly and that I know very well. The Steinway sound is very gorgeous and complex. Full-figured and curvy. Mature. Been around the globe a few times. Also, there is something about the action that takes work to get used to. It's like driving a tank made by Ferrari. But once you get it sorted, you can use that complex tone palette to create many nuanced "colors." The Yamahas seem to have a much simpler action and sound. Somehow, they sound "cleaner" and "shinier." Sleek and taut. No more or less beautiful than the Steinway, but less "deep." Not vapid or vacuous; just less calculating and treacherous than a Steinway. Sincere. That's it! A Yamaha is "sincere." And Pure As The Driven Snow. The Yamaha actions of the three pianos I know (a G3, a G1 and a C3) are very responsive and direct, if that makes any sense. They do exactly what I tell them to do without me having to make special accommodations for the "inbetween-i-ness" that happens from the keys to the strings.

The other grands I know are vintage guys--two large Haddorffs that were very fine instruments in their prime, and a handsome Chickering quarter grand. The Haddorffs play and sound like liquid gold. The Chickering I have not figured out, yet, though I have been working on it for almost a year, now. I do know this about the Chickering: it is very full of itself.

All of that is to say this: If music is what happens between the notes, each piano is going to give you something to work with, and it is up to you to see what the piano will give you.

As one who has to work with the piano I'm given to work with, I'm not sure I understand the question. Each piano has its own personality. Music is found in developing a relationship with each individual instrument.

--Andy
Beautifully said, Andy. I haven't had the same positive experience you've had with Yamahas. I've only tried a few and felt they sounded thin and mechanically consistent with no personality. I did play on one lovely Bosendorfer that had a rich, mellow tone and buttery action.

I admit, I am partial to Steinways. I've wanted one ever since I saw and heard Rubinstein play on one when was a little girl. When I was finally able to buy one in my late 50's, the salesman told me it would be like moving from a pony to a thoroughbred and it would take me four years to adjust to the subtle action and the nuances and color that would open to me. He was spot on. Playing a superior instrument improved my playing and my listening skills tremendously. I only regret that I do not have the space or money to buy a Steinway D. I've played on a few D's that were magical, as if rainbows were coming off the strings. The best was an old CD that had seen years on the stage and was repeatedly concert prepped. Its tone and colors were breathtaking. While shopping for my Steinway O, I was struck by how different each Steinway piano is.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386784
02/15/15 08:36 PM
02/15/15 08:36 PM
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My teacher had a divine Steinway L that all of her students just adored. It had an exceptionally light, but playable, action. So, it shouldn't always be about wrestling for tone.

That said, I'd say 1/3 Steinways are superb, 1/3 remind one of the superb ones, and 1/3 are plain awful. This is not necessarily Steinway's fault, as much initial prep and subsequent wear and tear come into play.


WhoDwaldi
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2386788
02/15/15 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
That said, I'd say 1/3 Steinways are superb, 1/3 remind one of the superb ones, and 1/3 are plain awful. This is not necessarily Steinway's fault, as much initial prep and subsequent wear and tear come into play.

Right. In my experience, nothing compares to that first group.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386803
02/15/15 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Am I the only one that feels this way? Maybe I am just under the spell.

If you want to know if you are 'under the spell' or not, then go play those other instruments until you can hear the beauty in them. Until you can really understand why people like them.

If you can't hear it, then you're under the spell.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386806
02/15/15 09:44 PM
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I 100% agree with the love of Steinway pianos. I have been lucky enough to play on my share of Steinway, Yamaha, and Kawaii grands. I have played on a decent number of Bosendorfers and Bechsteins. I have encountered the latter two the least. I know they are supposed to be much pricier than steinways but I still didn't like the feel as much. Maybe that was related to the particular instruments I played but I feel like just about every Steinway I have touched has been superior to other instruments, whether it was in great shape or not. Something about the range of sounds and my ability to control the instrument is usually always better in a Steinway.

As for the yamaha and kawaii grands there isn't even a comparison to make.

Hamburg beats New York, btw. No contest. It's the already wonderful Steinway on steroids.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: phantomFive] #2386809
02/15/15 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by JoelW
Am I the only one that feels this way? Maybe I am just under the spell.

If you want to know if you are 'under the spell' or not, then go play those other instruments until you can hear the beauty in them. Until you can really understand why people like them.

If you can't hear it, then you're under the spell.

You're sort of making it look as though I said they are bad instruments. I said it was obvious that they are high end pianos, and I would be lucky to own any of them. I'm simply saying that there's a certain earthiness about Steinway, and their actions are so buttery. The European pianos come real close. The Asian pianos definitely do not compare in that way.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386811
02/15/15 10:33 PM
02/15/15 10:33 PM
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There are crappy pianos everywhere. But, the best Steinway will always beat the best Yamaha or the best Bosendorfer or Fazioli. At least in my experience... Also, I detest Faziolis - they're shallow and don't offer you much to work with.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386816
02/15/15 10:54 PM
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Steinways are fantastic instruments, needless to say. There's a reason why they're the most prevalent high end brand, and it's not only marketing hype.

I remember being disappointed the first time playing a Bosie (at an audition), and really disappointed walking into my new teacher's room and seeing two Bechsteins. However, after spending some time with them, it's easy to see why they are considered top notch instruments, just very different then Steinways.

There's a clarity to Bechsteins that's just beautiful. If you're expecting the roar (for lack of a better term) of a Steinway, then you're going to be disappointed. Also, if you don't know what your doing musically, a Bechstein will kill you. They're not as forgiving as Steinways. However, if you've got great control over what you're playing, a Bechstein is hard to beat, IMHO.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Pogorelich.] #2386818
02/15/15 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
There are crappy pianos everywhere. But, the best Steinway will always beat the best Yamaha or the best Bosendorfer or Fazioli. At least in my experience... Also, I detest Faziolis - they're shallow and don't offer you much to work with.


Really? The only Fazioli I ever played gave me some much to work with I was overwhelmed. Really, the control was so enormous I still don't know if I like it. But that was just one experience, never saw any other Fazioli around here. Plus the treble really was shallow, and the action was so incredibly even it didn't feel like a piano. This was the only time this was an issue, but it felt too artificial. Still, I never saw anyone complain about having too little to work with. Interesting.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386838
02/16/15 12:27 AM
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As in, it was so shallow that playing anything besides a fast Scarlatti was abysmol. Not enough depth.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386851
02/16/15 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by JoelW
Am I the only one that feels this way? Maybe I am just under the spell.

If you want to know if you are 'under the spell' or not, then go play those other instruments until you can hear the beauty in them. Until you can really understand why people like them.

If you can't hear it, then you're under the spell.

You're sort of making it look as though I said they are bad instruments.

I'm saying it looks like you don't understand them.

When you start talking in stereotypes like 'Asian pianos' or 'European pianos' it makes me roll my eyes....when you start talking about the 'buttery' action that only exists in Steinways, it's my sign to leave the conversation because you sound like a fanboy.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: phantomFive] #2386855
02/16/15 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by JoelW
Am I the only one that feels this way? Maybe I am just under the spell.

If you want to know if you are 'under the spell' or not, then go play those other instruments until you can hear the beauty in them. Until you can really understand why people like them.

If you can't hear it, then you're under the spell.

You're sort of making it look as though I said they are bad instruments.

I'm saying it looks like you don't understand them.

When you start talking in stereotypes like 'Asian pianos' or 'European pianos' it makes me roll my eyes....when you start talking about the 'buttery' action that only exists in Steinways, it's my sign to leave the conversation because you sound like a fanboy.

Some pianists prefer the sound of American hammers, which are not factory installed on a Hamburg Steinway, so there needs to be some distinction there between the N.Y. and Hamburg divisions of S. & S. I've noticed that European grand pianos tend to have a much more rounded bass than U.S. instruments, and this deliberate outcome of design isn't going to be preferred by every pianist.

I'm not sure how important all of this is. When Artur Schnabel abandoned C. Bechstein pianos, audiences didn't say that his magic had disappeared. Liszt built his reputation on pianos other than S. & S. - I don't think he ever played on one except for an instrument that was gifted to him. Nyiregyhazi had the wherewithal to get his massive tone out of any piano, and unlike Josef Hofmann, Horowitz and Paderewski, he didn't have special concert instruments for his use and suited to his particular goals in sound.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386869
02/16/15 04:41 AM
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Hi everyone,

This is a very nice thread, thanks to the OP.

I absolutely love Steinway pianos too. They have the most versatile tone - everything sounds good on a Steinway, which is not always the case with other makes. They also have a beautiful action with wonderful repetition and response. I know that much of this is the way the action is regulated, but it is testament to Steinway's commitment to their product that they have so many technicians who are able to perform to such a high level. That's not to say that others done, incidentally, but merely that Steinway technicians are amongst the best around.

I happen to think that at concert grand level, Steinway has some pretty serious competition, but I'm not sure if it has a match, an equal. The Yamaha CFX is a wonderful glorious warm piano with an action like butter and the response of fine silk, the Fazioli has this palette of colour from the most silent pianissimo possible, with an action that makes it possible to play with exceptional clarity at extremely low volume, and of course, it will go loud. The Bösendorfer has that beautiful classically balanced tone, like an aristocrat amongst the pianos, and the Blüthner has this wonderful melted-chocolate yet clear tone. I'm talking now, only about pianos that are in top regulation and 9' long.

What I haven't heard is many concerts with the other makes. I have performed a few concertos on non-Steinways - played some Mozart and Mendelssohn on a Blüthner, Tchaikovsky on a Bösendorfer, Beethoven on a Bechstein, myself, but I haven't gone to any concerts for instance, where a Fazioli has been used in a concerto.

I have heard Yamaha used a few times for concerto work, in Bartok and Rachmaninoff, and I used one for the Grieg a few years back. I could tell each time that it was a great piano, but I couldn't really hear it in the same way as a Steinway - it didn't have the projection that Steinways have. This is the thing about the Steinway D, it has the ability to project to the back of the hall and still sound beautiful. Sometimes with other pianos you get the feeling that you have to push.

Now, that's not necessarily the sound you need in a small recital, and I've heard model D Steinways in other situations where I've thought that something else, smaller, would fit better.

The other aspect of Steinway which is excellent, is that you can feel from the Model V to the Model D (Hamburg, I don't know the NYC pianos so much), that you're getting the same quality of parts and workmanship all the way through the line. Now, of course you're not getting that with Yamaha, but then they only claim to make five hand built models, and even they are in two tiers (the CF and the S series). But even with Shigeru Kawai, Blüthner to a lesser extent, and Bösendorfer, I get the feeling that the concert grand is in a category apart, above, and the smaller grands, from the 7' down to the upright even, are just not of the same breed. This could be perception, of course, but it is something I've noticed many times.

The only other make I have played to have the same quality from the smallest to the largest is Fazioli, and they cost the same as the Steinway anyway. I haven't played a new Bechstein grand in a very long time, so I can't really tell you what they are like. I did play a Bechstein concert grand over in Frankfurt 5 years ago, and I remember thinking it was not unlike a Steinway, strangely enough.

So I agree that for quality and consistency down the line, there isn't another piano like Steinway, and for concert work with orchestra, where you need beautiful sound that projects over a larger orchestra, Steinway is pretty much unbeaten.

For value for money in buying a workhorse instrument that you're going to pound to within an inch of its life over 20 years, I'm not sure I'd go for a Steinway, because these other makes - Yamaha and Kawai in particular, really do a great job in that market, and they produce beautiful sounding pianos that sell at a very reasonable price. So does Petrof, and Estonia for instance. We all know they're not as good as Steinway, but they're a great choice nonetheless.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Michael Sayers] #2386878
02/16/15 05:03 AM
02/16/15 05:03 AM
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I tend to agree, with some nuances. When I play a Steinway decently prepared, I always think that nothing can beat it. But the reason why I feel this is not the one I suspected 10 years ago. At this time, I thought that it was the Steinway sound, which is actually gorgeous. There is a common factor in the sound of the brand, we can immediately identify it, even if every single D has its own strong individuality ...

Last year, I found a SK on stage and at this moment, I just wanted to go back home. But when I tried it, I found it incredibly colourful, more complex than a good Steinway in the medium. Amazing tone. You can hear it on my souncloud page, the Chopin Barcarolle and Liszt Rhapsodie Espagnole are a public recording on this piano (maybe the mp3 killed the sound complexity…). I think all others are done on Steinways.
Now I think that the superiority of Steinway is not due to its sound, but to the exceptional accuracy and easiness of the keyboard response. In my opinion, this manufacturer understands the needs of a pianist much better than any other. This is why I love Steinway. What I expect from an instrument above anything else, is a piano which is “on my side”, making my life easier, which produces the sound that I have in my head. I don’t want having to fight against the piano to control it. So I believe that the number one quality of Steinways is their extreme docility and flexibility, regardless of the technical context of the piece.
I feel something quite similar with Beschtein (regarding the awesome response to touch variations) but am more satisfied with the Steinway tone. I played a lot of Yamahas with good and bad surprises (I agree on the comment about their sound - and I suspect that bad surprises are more about preparation than the piano itself), have limited experience with Bosen and tried a single Fazioli very shortly once in my life … therefore I cannot be certain the monopole of Steinway is an obvious outcome in the industry. But I am sure that finding a Steinway on stage is the guarantee that nothing bad can happen due to the piano, and that I can play everything on it.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Okay] #2386881
02/16/15 05:35 AM
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I am a true believer in the genius of Herr Steinweg as well. The conversion took place with a 1940 D that had something of the "Horowitz" sound in the bass, and a liquid, lyrical treble of almost organ-like sustain - much better than the treble of CD #503 as heard on Horowitz's recordings. The action had a very deep feel and response, much moreso I suspect than one will find with any contemporary D.

To maintain clarity about pianos it helps to refer to a Hamburg concert grand as a D-274. I thought one of the posts was about a N.Y. D until it was mentioned that the piano was a Hamburg.

A D-274 sounds very different than a D, at least to my ears wink.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386884
02/16/15 05:47 AM
02/16/15 05:47 AM
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joe80 Offline
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J

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You're right, the American and the German Steinways do sound very different. Both are very beautiful pianos.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: joe80] #2386890
02/16/15 06:12 AM
02/16/15 06:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
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Michael Sayers  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by joe80
You're right, the American and the German Steinways do sound very different. Both are very beautiful pianos.

And the ones made in the past sounded better than the ones made in the present, at least in my opinion. I haven't played a Steinway made after the 1980s, just some with more recent hammers - and the hammer formulas do change - so this is speculation, but there are a lot of recordings out there which may give some idea. I don't think you'll find any Steinway D in a concert hall that sounds like these two from 1968 - just listen to the bass in the first one starting at about 1:35 and to the piano-pianissimo Chopin afterwards. Maybe it is a bit too bright sounding, so for contrast there is the piano in second link which is darker and more austere, and sounds a lot like the Cliburn D that tours around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny3zTQbyrrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ZVtZVNwtk

Of course there is this Cliburn D, not the same as the one that tours, with its very languorous sound - I am sure that it has plenty of power too, when needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLkzEEcfdq4

I think Van owned maybe 20 different Ds in total over the years.

Pianos since then just seem to sound more homogenous and less "open", or else shrill, brittle and glassy especially in fortissimo playing . . . part of it (in my belief) has to do with how the fortissimo is being produced, which gets back to the "Gould's tone" thread . . . the Hamburgs don't have so much of their special golden hued timbre . . . et c.

I am sure that some technicians try for what is more traditionally wanted, so the issue must reside with the pianos. As with Polyphonist's N.Y. B - no offence intended, Polyphonist! - one can hear in the sound and response that it is a relatively contemporary instrument, even though the technician does an exceptional job of getting it to a standard that works well with Polyphonist's golden age style of play.

I would say that 1968 is about my cut off point with Steinway D pianos. Beggars can't be choosers, so it really is just in fantasy that I would turn down an opportunity on account of the year a piano was made!




Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: joe80] #2386896
02/16/15 06:42 AM
02/16/15 06:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
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Michael Sayers  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Stockholm, Sweden
Hi Joe,

Here is a 1940 N.Y. B with the "Horowitz" sound - if you listen closely, you will hear that it is there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S-Kv5dlvZY

I don't think one can get from here to there with a Steinway grand made too much later. If it is possible, I would like to know about it.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Michael Sayers] #2386916
02/16/15 08:03 AM
02/16/15 08:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,417
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Cinnamonbear  Offline
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Rockford, IL
Michael--the "Summertime" sound is gorgeous on that re-built Steinway!

Here is the sound of a vintage Haddorff 5' 8" grand, built sometime in the early 20th century by Swedish immigrant cabinet makers turned piano builders in Rockford, IL.

https://app.box.com/s/p8j0wxtu2grxmbkj1fs0

Some people have said that the finest Haddorffs could rival the Steinway. Of course, every "lesser" piano company would want that said about their pianos, I suppose. I believe the Haddorff piano makers would not have considered themselves "lesser," however, and it shows.

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 02/16/15 08:10 AM.

I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Grandalf] #2386918
02/16/15 08:08 AM
02/16/15 08:08 AM
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joe80 Offline
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joe80  Offline
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Andy, the Haddorff piano sounds excellent! Something I've never heard of before!

The 1940 B sounds glorious. I think PianoCraft are absolute masters in restoration, I always listen to their videos with great joy at the tone.

I'm not convinced with Living Pianos Ds to be honest, but that's OK, it's all taste, right?

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2386953
02/16/15 09:55 AM
02/16/15 09:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
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Michael Sayers  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Hi Andy,

The Haddorff sounds very nice. And I assume this is you playing it? Are you sure the makers didn't bring any piano building skills with them from Sweden? At one time there was a thriving piano industry here.

Re: Steinway on the mind [Re: joe80] #2386954
02/16/15 09:56 AM
02/16/15 09:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Hi Joe,

I agree about the two 1968 Ds. There would be issues, pluses and minuses . . . though I think that on the balance one could coax them into working wink.

Maybe the only way the 1940 B could be improved were if it could be lengthened into a D!

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