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Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384658
02/10/15 04:39 PM
02/10/15 04:39 PM
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Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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The SBIs are telling me a somewhat clearer message. The RBIs are not as clear... they even appear contradictory at times. But I've made up my mind as to the de-tuning of the right string. I'll wait until tomorrow before posting anything here, but I've sent a PM to Ryan with my hunch. If I'm wrong, I'll take it as a prompt to practise more...


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
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Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384661
02/10/15 04:57 PM
02/10/15 04:57 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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The right string is beating faster for the M3. That means the right is sharper.

I love this technique. It is tuning indirectly; tuning blind, really. You listen to beats and then play the SBI after and judge. It order to make this work, we need some really accurate beat speed relationships. I'm working on this now.

Also, it allows us to put our fingers on the pulse of stability; we can feel exactly how the string is slipping across the v-bar/agraffe based on how we are manipulating the hammer.

It is a technique that can easily be judged as inefficient if it is not used with other techniques like a beat speed window temperament sequence and some threshold limits for ideal octave sizes.



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384685
02/10/15 06:12 PM
02/10/15 06:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
Sicily - Italy
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted by rysowers
OK, here it is in all it's glory. Just a bit of background: I have the left and middle string of D tuned to a pure unison. The right string is detuned to a slight whine. When I measured the difference Tunelab showed a .34 cent difference.

Using the rubber mute I play intervals and then alternate between listening to the D note right string and the D note left string to show the difference in beat rates. I then occasionally play the middle and right string to show how that difference translates to a unison.


Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Ryan:

That is a most excellent demo. I am so glad you took the time to make and post it. And I am especially glad you did not say which way the right string of D4 was detuned. I fooled myself into thinking it was one way while listening to the RBIs and was then convinced it was the other way when listening to the SBIs. But then I am a 4ths and 5ths tuner.

Folks, can I suggest that we all make up our mind which way this string was detuned and why we think so, but not post it until tomorrow?


Hi Jeff,

We have different tomorrow(s) :-) , I think (here in London) we are ahead?

As Mark R. suggested (thank you Mark), I will PM Ryan.

Yours is a simple video, Ryan, yet it is close to a synthesis of what "listening to, or hearing the beat" can be, especially for the many friends here asking for indications. Well done, really.

Other friends here may also notice that when Ryan plays the unison, right at the end of the video, the harmonic series can be heard. For those who are interested, there is where the unison can be 'shaped'.

Regards, a.c.
.



alfredo
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384788
02/11/15 01:29 AM
02/11/15 01:29 AM
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Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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Everybody gets an A! smile

The right string is indeed sharp - and as I mentioned earlier it is about .3 cents sharp.

That was fun. Thanks to those who participated!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
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Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384823
02/11/15 05:46 AM
02/11/15 05:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
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Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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What I find fascinating, is that Mark C. picked up the sharpness by comparing the M3s. I found the SBIs, especially the P4, much clearer, while the RBIs seemed ambiguous and confused me. Learned something about my ear - thanks, Ryan!


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384829
02/11/15 06:21 AM
02/11/15 06:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,920
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Wow! my mind played a double trick on me.

The first time I heard it, I thought the right string was sharp until I heard the 5ths, which seems much busier to me, and convinced me otherwise. The same thing happens each time I listen, even now knowing ahead of time which way it is. The wide intervals, M3, M6, P4 do sound like they beat faster, but the one narrow interval, P5 seems to beat faster, too - even more so. It must be the interaction between the 3:2 and 6:4 partial matches. I hear a waa-waa ... waa-waa ... effect with the right string, making me think it beats faster when it did not. If I really concentrate on the 3:2, yes I can hear it is slower, now.

Thanks, Ryan!


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: Mark R.] #2384851
02/11/15 08:25 AM
02/11/15 08:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,920
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
What I find fascinating, is that Mark C. picked up the sharpness by comparing the M3s. I found the SBIs, especially the P4, much clearer, while the RBIs seemed ambiguous and confused me. Learned something about my ear - thanks, Ryan!


Ready to give WBW a fresh try? smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384865
02/11/15 09:54 AM
02/11/15 09:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Mark R.
What I find fascinating, is that Mark C. picked up the sharpness by comparing the M3s. I found the SBIs, especially the P4, much clearer, while the RBIs seemed ambiguous and confused me. Learned something about my ear - thanks, Ryan!


Ready to give WBW a fresh try? smile


Indeed I seem to have come full circle... I didn't expect this, but I'm obviously listening to SBIs more closely than what I did 5 years ago.

But I'm not sure I'll take things quite as far as WBW... wink

I quite like the U3U3D5, which uses P4s to tune the "U3", and M3s to check them. And Bernhard Stopper's sequence is next on my bucket list.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2384997
02/11/15 04:10 PM
02/11/15 04:10 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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RBI have a higher sensitivity. I did some tests and found subjects able to hear down to 2% differences in RBI but only 6% in SBI.

Also, when tuning, we are likely to have narrow fourths and wide fifths. Assuming fourths are always wide and fifths always narrow can lead to problems.

Also, with SBI we do often get secondary coincidental partials that can interfere with the clear hearing of a beat.

Finally, with DSU, trying to judge SBI in order to tweak notes is very difficult if the DSU is not beatless. With RBI, the faster beat "rides" on top of any whaa in the DSU. Then when we are happy with the RBI relationship, we can listen to the SBI directly and demand a clean beat, which will not be there if there is any whaa in the DSU.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385029
02/11/15 05:28 PM
02/11/15 05:28 PM
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Yes, Mark, I took part in your beat rate difference test the other day, and I've read your points on the advantages of RBIs before. I actually used my beat rate test results to enter into a long discussion with Jeff on the merit RBIs vs. SBIs. I tried to make a case for the RBIs. I'm sure you remember.

All the more my surprise that my answer to Ryan's hands-on riddle came from the SBIs, not the RBIs. If anything, Ryan's example has confirmed my difficulties in tuning not just progressive, but evenly progressive CM3s. (I plan on using Jack Stebbins' "Let the piano tell you" to practise this further.)

All I can say is that your beat rate test has one beating, synthesized note, while Ryan's example has a beating, nearly coincidental partial amidst two real piano notes with their respective partial envelopes.

Your above post seems to put forward certain immutable laws that I am somehow disputing. Please, if my account doesn't agree with theory, or your survey, just put it down to a dilettante making his own observations.

Lastly, why would we be "likely" to have narrow fourths and wide fifths, if the first prerequisite for tuning SBIs is to make fourths wide and fifths narrow?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: Mark R.] #2385218
02/12/15 08:47 AM
02/12/15 08:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,920
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
RBI have a higher sensitivity. I did some tests and found subjects able to hear down to 2% differences in RBI but only 6% in SBI.

...


Originally Posted by Mark R.
Yes, Mark, I took part in your beat rate difference test the other day, and I've read your points on the advantages of RBIs before. I actually used my beat rate test results to enter into a long discussion with Jeff on the merit RBIs vs. SBIs. I tried to make a case for the RBIs. I'm sure you remember.

All the more my surprise that my answer to Ryan's hands-on riddle came from the SBIs, not the RBIs.

...


Mark R.:

If you think can show Mark C. how he is "comparing apples and oranges", go ahead. I tried and failed. A different, fresh voice may be heard better.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2385222
02/12/15 09:14 AM
02/12/15 09:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,920
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
RBI have a higher sensitivity. I did some tests and found subjects able to hear down to 2% differences in RBI but only 6% in SBI.

...


Wait, wait, I think I've got it!

Mark C.:

Imagine if you are shopping for a new watch, and two different dealers has what you want for the same base price, but different surcharges, and also different discounts on the surcharges.

Dealer A has a $16 surcharge, but you only have to pay 2% of it, which equals $0.32. Dealer B has a $2 surcharge, but you have to pay a whopping 6% of that surcharge, but that only comes out to $0.12. Which is the better deal?

Now divide these amounts by 100 (converting monetary dollars into musical cents). Now which is more accurate? Hearing a 2% change in the beatrate of an interval tempered 16 cents resulting in a 0.32 cent change in pitch, or hearing a 6% change in the beatrate of an interval that is tempered 2 cents resulting in a 0.12 cent change in pitch?




Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385269
02/12/15 12:37 PM
02/12/15 12:37 PM
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shirley, MA
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very interesting, Jeff

ji


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385304
02/12/15 03:23 PM
02/12/15 03:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
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Tunewerk Offline
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Jeff, since this is your own thread and you are going in this direction now, I'll comment, but I don't mean to derail from the subject of shimming.

I see you and Mark are both correct, but somehow unable to see that. Of course SBI's are more accurate because of proximity to the partial match, and of course, RBI's are more accurate because of increased sensitivity to movement (higher partial interference frequencies).

They have different types of accuracy for gauging a highly accurate tuning. Why there is such a partisan argument on this has always been puzzling to me.

The perceptual tradeoffs you listed are obviously true.. but there are other elements to the complete picture.


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: Tunewerk] #2385311
02/12/15 03:39 PM
02/12/15 03:39 PM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by Tunewerk
Jeff, since this is your own thread and you are going in this direction now, I'll comment, but I don't mean to derail from the subject of shimming.

I see you and Mark are both correct, but somehow unable to see that. Of course SBI's are more accurate because of proximity to the partial match, and of course, RBI's are more accurate because of increased sensitivity to movement (higher partial interference frequencies).

They have different types of accuracy for gauging a highly accurate tuning. Why there is such a partisan argument on this has always been puzzling to me.

The perceptual tradeoffs you listed are obviously true.. but there are other elements to the complete picture.


I don't see this as derailing the subject of shimming. In the OP and in the title, I open up the idea of shimming with intervals other than the unison.

Unless Mark C. and I use different definitions for RBIs, no, we cannot both be right. If his definition of an RBI is an interval that beats around 8bps, rather than an interval that is tempered as much as an M3 or M6, then we could both be right, but talking about two different things.

What is your definition of an RBI?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385429
02/12/15 08:25 PM
02/12/15 08:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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I've been thinking about this thread during this weeks tunings.

Since I use an open unison technique and tune unisons as I go, I find that RBI's (3rds, 6ths, 10ths, 17ths) are more useful for a couple of reasons.

1. With the RBI's my brain gets a lot more info quickly. I can usually hear what I need to within a second or two. With the SBIs I have to listen longer. Thus utilizing RBI's moves me along at a faster rate.

2. False beats cause more interference with SBIs than RBIs. Since false beats are usually slow in the middle of the piano, they can emulate or obscure the beatings of 4ths, 5ths, and octaves. Add whole unisons into the mix, with their greater complexity and it makes accurately judging the SBIs even more challenging. But like Mark C discribes, the RBI's ride on top of the SBIs so they are less obscured by false beats and open unison complexity.

This doesn't mean, of course, that I don't use SBIs. I'm checking them frequently. However, used in conjunction with the RBIs I don't have to listen to the SBIs as long or as carefully which saves time.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: rysowers] #2385460
02/12/15 10:05 PM
02/12/15 10:05 PM
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Posts: 5,920
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rysowers
I've been thinking about this thread during this weeks tunings.

Since I use an open unison technique and tune unisons as I go, I find that RBI's (3rds, 6ths, 10ths, 17ths) are more useful for a couple of reasons.

1. With the RBI's my brain gets a lot more info quickly. I can usually hear what I need to within a second or two. With the SBIs I have to listen longer. Thus utilizing RBI's moves me along at a faster rate.

2. False beats cause more interference with SBIs than RBIs. Since false beats are usually slow in the middle of the piano, they can emulate or obscure the beatings of 4ths, 5ths, and octaves. Add whole unisons into the mix, with their greater complexity and it makes accurately judging the SBIs even more challenging. But like Mark C discribes, the RBI's ride on top of the SBIs so they are less obscured by false beats and open unison complexity.

This doesn't mean, of course, that I don't use SBIs. I'm checking them frequently. However, used in conjunction with the RBIs I don't have to listen to the SBIs as long or as carefully which saves time.


Well, there certainly could be troubles with listening for the beat of SBIs with imperfect unisons. And you have a point about hearing more quickly how the beat of an RBI fits in than an SBI.

But these points don't matter when you don't tune unisons while setting the temperament, and use the RBIs to check how the SBIs are being tuned. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385478
02/12/15 10:33 PM
02/12/15 10:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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Olympia, WA
Even if the unisons are as pure as they can be, the SBIs don't come through as clear as listening to a single strings.

But you are right that if you are using a temperament strip it is not so much of an issue. But if one uses the shimming technique, the value and practicality of relying more on the SBIs becomes more apparent.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: Mark R.] #2385490
02/12/15 10:52 PM
02/12/15 10:52 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Yes, Mark, I took part in your beat rate difference test the other day, and I've read your points on the advantages of RBIs before. I actually used my beat rate test results to enter into a long discussion with Jeff on the merit RBIs vs. SBIs. I tried to make a case for the RBIs. I'm sure you remember.

All the more my surprise that my answer to Ryan's hands-on riddle came from the SBIs, not the RBIs. If anything, Ryan's example has confirmed my difficulties in tuning not just progressive, but evenly progressive CM3s. (I plan on using Jack Stebbins' "Let the piano tell you" to practise this further.)

All I can say is that your beat rate test has one beating, synthesized note, while Ryan's example has a beating, nearly coincidental partial amidst two real piano notes with their respective partial envelopes.

Your above post seems to put forward certain immutable laws that I am somehow disputing. Please, if my account doesn't agree with theory, or your survey, just put it down to a dilettante making his own observations.

Lastly, why would we be "likely" to have narrow fourths and wide fifths, if the first prerequisite for tuning SBIs is to make fourths wide and fifths narrow?


Hi Mark and Jeff,

First, we must clear up some misunderstanding. I have never said RBI are superior to SBI when tuning pianos. I may have asked the question and presented some limited data that leaned towards RBI, but I would never come out and claim one way is better than the other. That would just be foolish. (This should start the search by some of you for my word meal. I'm ready.)

In fact, my tuning path has come from 1) RBI are useless because there are out of tune by definition. What is the point of even trying to tune them smoothly, to 2) using RBI to set SBI interval sizes, to 3) using RBI to set SBI intervals sizes within windows, to 4) using SBI as the final test to confirm the accuracy of RBI and the purity of open unisons.

Right now I am convinced that SBI and RBI must both be used to tune a piano well.

I have done a lot of research into developing and qualifying a RBI window sequence and what I've found is that I can mathematically create smooth RBI within the temperament using some validated assumptions, but that, while the RBI are smooth, and the P4 are in the 1bps neighbourhood, the P4 do jump around a bit.

This is more evidence that SBI are more sensitive to differences in pitch and therefore should produce more accuracy.

However, my goal is to develop a sequence that, while it may be difficult aurally to reproduce, mathematically proves that a tuner should be able to tune the temperament in one pass without much or any refining at all.

So far, I am only able to create this with RBI windows. I have not had time to explore the P4/P5 approach and while it seems promising, I still have the following reservations (which I've already listed):

1) SBI are not great in open unison tuning systems because the unisons must be completely pure or the unison beat can be confused with the SBI beat.

2) SBI often have multiple coincidental partials which can also confuse the ear as to where exactly the tuner must listen. And these multiple coincident partials seem to mask each other at times making it hard for me to hear a clean beat.

Jack's Stack (CM3's) are actually very loose and often result in inaccurate progressions because the beats must change by 25% +/- 3% in order for the notes to be accurate. A tuner can tune them 25% +/- 15% and still hear increasing beat speeds, but the individual notes will not be accurate at all.

RBI windows gradually reduce that 25% down to 3% as you move through them, resulting in refinement of the CM3, and other notes, before the temperament is done, which improves their accuracy as reference notes for future notes to be tuned.

In other words, when using CM3, you have to be very diligent about setting the increase by exactly the same ratio. Not as easy as it sounds.

Your comment about oscillators vs piano notes is well taken. I have already stated I felt my test was too easy. I hope to create more realistic tests, and exercises, in the future.

I am not sure of the "laws" you say I seem to be putting forward. If I am, truly, it is to be shot down. Who wants to be barking up the wrong tree. Not me. What a waste of time. I have already, thanks to Jeff and others, laid aside many assumptions I used to have about tuning pianos. I truly value the respectful contribution of many posters here and I will be sure to give proper credit in Denver. This is the new way to do research in my opinion.

Also, I am not sure exactly what you are disputing. If you could be more clear, I'll try to respond directly.

As for wide fifths and narrow fourths, that just seems to happen a lot with my students. I teach some specific tests for improving a temperament using P4 and P5 checks, but the tests assume wide fourths and narrow fifths. Often the tests don't work because some fifths are wide and some fourths, narrow.

Best Regards,


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Shimming Unisons and Other Intervals [Re: UnrightTooner] #2385492
02/12/15 10:58 PM
02/12/15 10:58 PM
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Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Tunewerk
Jeff, since this is your own thread and you are going in this direction now, I'll comment, but I don't mean to derail from the subject of shimming.

I see you and Mark are both correct, but somehow unable to see that. Of course SBI's are more accurate because of proximity to the partial match, and of course, RBI's are more accurate because of increased sensitivity to movement (higher partial interference frequencies).

They have different types of accuracy for gauging a highly accurate tuning. Why there is such a partisan argument on this has always been puzzling to me.

The perceptual tradeoffs you listed are obviously true.. but there are other elements to the complete picture.


I don't see this as derailing the subject of shimming. In the OP and in the title, I open up the idea of shimming with intervals other than the unison.

Unless Mark C. and I use different definitions for RBIs, no, we cannot both be right. If his definition of an RBI is an interval that beats around 8bps, rather than an interval that is tempered as much as an M3 or M6, then we could both be right, but talking about two different things.

What is your definition of an RBI?


Hi Jeff,

My definition of RBI is m3, M3 and M6 and anything, lets say, faster than 4 or 5 bps; anything used to check SBI.

For me, SBI are unisons, P4, P5, and P8 and their compounds.

Hope that helps.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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