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Walk right in, sit right down...
#2381239 02/02/15 09:03 AM
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"Everybody's talkin' 'bout a new way of walkin'
Do you want to lose your mind?"


Anybody remember this song? It comes to mind when I find myself being sucked into some of the newest silliness posted on this Forum.

The latest is this teflon powder "pixie dust". I bought some years ago and it didn't seem to do a thing. Someone on this Forum did a controlled test and found that just good ole graphite worked better.

And do we need super-duper spectral analysis to evaluate temperament schemes? Do we even need to define the octave first? Do we need to define the octave at all? If it sounds good, it is good. If you don't know what an octave sounds like, what are you doing tuning, anyway?

For that matter, since a temperament scheme must include tuning some 4ths and 5ths, why not tune the entire circle of 5ths? If you can tune one, you can tune 12; but if you can't tune a 5th can you tune at all, really?

And then there is the whole thing about unisons. If it doesn't sound out-of-tune, then it is a good unison. If I want something that "blooms", I will wait until the flowers come out.

There are surely others that are noticing a lot of poppycock on this Forum.



Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381298 02/02/15 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
"Everybody's talkin' 'bout a new way of walkin'
Do you want to lose your mind?"


Anybody remember this song? It comes to mind when I find myself being sucked into some of the newest silliness posted on this Forum.

The latest is this teflon powder "pixie dust". I bought some years ago and it didn't seem to do a thing. Someone on this Forum did a controlled test and found that just good ole graphite worked better.

And do we need super-duper spectral analysis to evaluate temperament schemes? Do we even need to define the octave first? Do we need to define the octave at all? If it sounds good, it is good. If you don't know what an octave sounds like, what are you doing tuning, anyway?

For that matter, since a temperament scheme must include tuning some 4ths and 5ths, why not tune the entire circle of 5ths? If you can tune one, you can tune 12; but if you can't tune a 5th can you tune at all, really?

And then there is the whole thing about unisons. If it doesn't sound out-of-tune, then it is a good unison. If I want something that "blooms", I will wait until the flowers come out.

There are surely others that are noticing a lot of poppycock on this Forum.



Jeff are you lamenting the absence of certain trouble makers? I am quite enjoying the more relaxed goings on as of late and the significant reduction of said "poppycock."


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Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381306 02/02/15 12:43 PM
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Jeff,
If I encounter a grand that is producing a squeaking sound between the jack/rep-lever/knuckle and/or also has a rough feel at escapement when playing softly-I have full confidence that putting teflon powder on the knuckle will greatly reduce the problem for a quite long time period of use.

I also know that graphite on the knuckle turns into a glazed, hard surface. And I also know that getting graphite on things in a customers home does not leave a positive impression.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381317 02/02/15 01:05 PM
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The graphite goes onto the jack and lever, not the knuckle. If leather gets hard you can use a stiff brush or replace it. This is what has been done for over 100 years.

[Edit:] I mean the graphite suspended in alcohol, not in the powdered form, which does get everywhere.

Last edited by UnrightTooner; 02/02/15 01:54 PM.

Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
SMHaley #2381318 02/02/15 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
"Everybody's talkin' 'bout a new way of walkin'
Do you want to lose your mind?"


Anybody remember this song? It comes to mind when I find myself being sucked into some of the newest silliness posted on this Forum.

The latest is this teflon powder "pixie dust". I bought some years ago and it didn't seem to do a thing. Someone on this Forum did a controlled test and found that just good ole graphite worked better.

And do we need super-duper spectral analysis to evaluate temperament schemes? Do we even need to define the octave first? Do we need to define the octave at all? If it sounds good, it is good. If you don't know what an octave sounds like, what are you doing tuning, anyway?

For that matter, since a temperament scheme must include tuning some 4ths and 5ths, why not tune the entire circle of 5ths? If you can tune one, you can tune 12; but if you can't tune a 5th can you tune at all, really?

And then there is the whole thing about unisons. If it doesn't sound out-of-tune, then it is a good unison. If I want something that "blooms", I will wait until the flowers come out.

There are surely others that are noticing a lot of poppycock on this Forum.



Jeff are you lamenting the absence of certain trouble makers? I am quite enjoying the more relaxed goings on as of late and the significant reduction of said "poppycock."


No, it is just a different flavor of poppycock: "S.O.S."


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
PaintedPostDave #2381382 02/02/15 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave
Great post! I have put it on my site.

"Super-Duper Spectral Analysis": a great title for a book. I wouldn't read it but I would watch the movie.thumb laugh


Uh, are you asking permission?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381439 02/02/15 05:18 PM
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PaintedPostDave, Upright Tooner may not have a copyright on his post, but PianoWorld certainly does.
You may not need his permission, but you do need Mr. PianoWorld's permission.

Just read the bottom of the page. (I'll save you the trouble)

copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission



Members have been banned for putting posts on their own websites without permission.


I'm not convinced that this thread really serves any purpose, so take note that if it turns into another one of the Tech Forum's useless squabbles, ....guess what? Yup, It will be shut down.

So, enjoy your chat guys, but keep it civil.



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Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381488 02/02/15 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by casinitaly
copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission


Violated by the minute, then hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly over and over as members copy and repost each other’s photos and text postings.

The quote feature which allows this repeatedly renders the copyright claim moot.

Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
Silverwood Pianos #2381545 02/02/15 10:10 PM
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If one is quoting from an earlier PW post-to a later PW post-no infringement is happening.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381564 02/02/15 10:55 PM
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To copy a posting is to reproduce that posting. Along with that one is re-directing. Further and more importantly you or I could take a posting from this forum and post it in multiple forums all over this site.

That is reproduction, re-direction, and re-editing content of this site.

This is in direct conflict with the language in the copyright requirement as it is written.

Read it again.

“No part of this site may be REPRODUCED without prior written permission.”

This is poorly written and should really begin with something like “Notwithstanding some of the editing features available to Pianoworld members"…then we could have the existing language ……

“No part of this site may be REPRODUCED without prior written permission.”

Or some such thing.

Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381570 02/02/15 11:11 PM
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In regards to Teflon powder, I have to agree with Ed.

I know there was someone on the forum who did a "study" that showed graphite worked better than Teflon powder, but I also know that Bill Spurlock did his own study and showed that it could take up to a gram or two off down-weight and I've seen it myself.

Not all Teflon powder is the same. Some has particles that are round. The micro-fine Teflon that Bill sells is irregular shaped and sticks to the leather better. He told me he hunted around quite a bit to find the best product for the application.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381571 02/02/15 11:13 PM
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By the way, I LOVE the word "Poppycock"!
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Ryan Sowers,
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Olympia, WA
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Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381573 02/02/15 11:15 PM
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OK Jeff, I'll bite. Generally I agree that a tuner can make the piano sound great without any sophisticated analysis and just "make it sound good". In that case there is no reason to post on this forum on tuning issues. Personally I am interested in a more or less scientific method to figure out how those tuners "do it". Why? Because I find it interesting.
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Do we even need to define the octave first? Do we need to define the octave at all? If it sounds good, it is good. If you don't know what an octave sounds like, what are you doing tuning, anyway?

Problem is that there is a range of octaves that "sound good". As you know probably even better than I do, if you tune a "good" F3F4 octave, make a temperament, and then expand it by "good" octaves (perfectly reasonable on harpsichord or organ) the result may not be very good. Beginning piano tuners tend to tune their octaves too narrow. It "sounds good" but that is not good enough.

So what is "good enough"? That's not so easy to answer.

I think it's best to first decide on your octave appropriate for the piano, which depends on inharmonicity structure, then fill in the temperament octave, and then expand it by octaves with checks by P5 P4 and M3's. IMHO the P12 is musically irrelevant.
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

For that matter, since a temperament scheme must include tuning some 4ths and 5ths, why not tune the entire circle of 5ths? If you can tune one, you can tune 12; but if you can't tune a 5th can you tune at all, really?

Noone can tune a 5th that precisely, to end up with a closed circle after the 12th fifth, so according to this criterium noone can tune at all. Of course, as you know, this is why you use M3 M6 intervals as checks. Or you can turn it around and rely mainly on tuning M3's and use 5th and 4th as checks. Or maybe also M6? What about m3? So I think it gets complicated enough that some advanced theoretical discussions, many of them originating from yourself, are not out of place.
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

And then there is the whole thing about unisons. If it doesn't sound out-of-tune, then it is a good unison. If I want something that "blooms", I will wait until the flowers come out.

Apparently there are pianists that want different types of unisons, see the movie "pianomania" where that French guy wants his unisons to bloom in a very specific way. You may not want to offer this service, but apparently there is more to a unison than getting it to sound like a unison.
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

There are surely others that are noticing a lot of poppycock on this Forum.

Yes, I am one of those noticers, but now I usually ignore most of it. Occasionally I respond to a specific "poppycock" claim (like a 0.1 cent accurate aural tuning) with specific objections, or challenges, in what I hope is a good scientific objective approach.

I think that is more productive than a generalized claim that "we only need to tune what sounds good and don't need all this egghead stuff".
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

And do we need super-duper spectral analysis to evaluate temperament schemes?

Well, you (and others) thought you could hear if a chromatic M3 sequence had progressive beatrates, but a super-duper spectral analysis showed this was not the case.

Kees

Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
Silverwood Pianos #2381595 02/03/15 12:29 AM
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The "site" is the property line! All things within the lines of the site are the property of the site. No conflict whatsoever.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381662 02/03/15 05:57 AM
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If anybody should be sceptical, I should, yet reading the poppycock here is pertially responsible for me tuning well past my sell by date.

Years ago I regularly substituted for musicians in a London ballroom where one of the band had kept an unlicensed bar in the bandroom for years. It was a favourite hangout of police detectives and local minor villains who would grass on the major villains for a drink or two. It was there that I learned how the intelligencia that thought they knew it all were favourite targets for conmen. Even on here, there are crucial omissions from many clever equations.
I am constantly amazed at how management fall for piano acquisition schemes until I call a meeting. There was a time in my life when I was instrumental in the operation of these schemes.

Another after hours hangout for musicians was the old press club where drunken journalists were writing articles on a beer soaked bar. An editor would make up a completely random shock horror headline and give it to a hack to write a filler article on. If it was a believable article, it would make the headlines on a slow news day. It was a strange atmosphere until the presses started up in a nearby basement door at 3.15am like a minor earthquake. That was the signal to relax.
I always read this forum. It keeps me interested. There is a constant flow of ideas some new, most ancient.

I used many of them this morning. I had to quickly work on three recital instruments that are in the process of succumbing to the current cold snap. Knowing what I could get away with on that piano in that acoustic was invaluable. I am more comfortabke if quick scruffy temperament errs on the side of WT. one of the pianos goes our of tune in a similar way every time no matter what the season. I can let unisons "bloom" in a particular way, knowing where how those unisons will will mature allows me to get twice as long a period between tunings. I always bear in mind whether I am solely responsible for a piano or whether I'm part of a tuning team. I know how narrow an octave I can allow and get away with.

In a couple of halls, I was helped by a more senior colleague who advised me to not touch the long steels if they we're slightly sharp at the early tuning because they would be back in tune by the evening tuning thus helping stability and less work if the tuning window is running late. No ensemble has ever caught any of us out with that trick. A professional unit always finishes rehearsing at the appointed time. An amateur unit rarely does.

So yes, despite my worldly experience, or maybe because of it, I swallow everything whole. You never know when you're gonna need it.

It might be poppycock now but oh! so true under certain circumstances. Malone they say about the weather. Give it a minute or two.



Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381670 02/03/15 06:34 AM
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Kees:

Very good response, no poppycock.

Starting this Topic was kinda like slapping my own face to "wake me up." Like "Come on Dutch (my seagoing name...) what are you bothering with that nonsense for? Play your own game. Are you going to let the ship control you are are you going to control the ship?"

Octaves, beat rates, and temperament schemes (oh, my!). We know the level of each other's understanding on these things. And please don't think for a second that I don't appreciate your input. Not that that would effect you in a professional way...

But I have come to the realization that I have been getting things out of order. The temperament comes first, then the octaves. If for no other reason than there are fewer notes to adjust back and forth when setting the temperament. And as you expand the octaves, the temperament can be refined. In fact, the temperament refining checks, like 10ths, also show you how your octaves are. It all goes go hand in hand.

So considering that the old texts on tuning were right about tuning, including tuning SBIs and correcting them when checking with RBIs, maybe other new-fangled procedures should be looked at closer, too. Like: is less friction really always better? I don't think so. We want a certain amount for feel and control. Is pixie dust needed? Well, do manufacturers use it or recommend it? Can I notice a difference, or must I listen to my betters?

So unisons should bloom? Well, they might for a very short period of time. The more important thing is that they should stay. And the best chance for that is to tune them as pure as possible.

I think anything new in such a well established discipline should be carefully considered and given a poppycock factor.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381696 02/03/15 08:11 AM
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The copyright statement is fine.

The existence of the "Quote" button IS Frank Baxter's permission to quote things WITHIN the Piano World forums.


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381712 02/03/15 08:38 AM
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All:

I have been reading Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man". Some of what he says is poppycock, but other things are spot on. He makes a point that laws should be an expression of natural fair play.

If you quote somebody, you ought to ask their permission so they can be sure it is taken in context, otherwise it is gossip. If somebody owns something, like this Forum and every word on it, you should ask permission to use it. And if you are invited into somebody's house, or onto a Forum, you should behave yourself according to their rules - or leave!

There is no reason to get legalistic. In other words: "Walk right in, sit right down." laugh laugh laugh


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
UnrightTooner #2381797 02/03/15 12:24 PM
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Jeff,
So when we set a scale for "Poppycock" ratings do we stop at ten, or should we always go to eleven!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Walk right in, sit right down...
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2381799 02/03/15 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Jeff,
So when we set a scale for "Poppycock" ratings do we stop at ten, or should we always go to eleven!


That would be on a scale of 1.05946... to 2. wink


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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