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Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2380636 01/31/15 06:54 PM
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Jonathan Baker
Paul,

You are obviously not a professional musician. You are merely another Gouldie trying to gain hierarchy with a pissing contest. I post here to talk with other musicians, and you are not a musician, so we have nothing to discuss.

Oh no, it's YOU who are not a professional musician.

A true professional would have videos and recordings and examples of their playing on their website.

You are probably living off an inheritance, or something like that.

And again, teaching piano is often the 2nd tier, backup career of the failed concert musician, which would be you. Only a disgruntled failed musician such as yourself would disparage Gould and Lang. I do not worship them...I can criticize performances of both them. But it's ok to recognize great musical ability when you are not insecure about your own.

I'd certainly play you under the table....

Seriously guys? grin


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Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2380638 01/31/15 06:59 PM
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Let's knock it off on the fighting and insults, ok?

If you can't stop I can easily arrange for you to stop. Get my drift?


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Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2380648 01/31/15 07:18 PM
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I find it utterly bizarre that Gould brings about such strong feelings. Just like any other performer, I enjoy some facets of his playing and not others, and yet I find that this fight over Gould is far more common than it should it be. Why is it that no other performer seems to inspire such passionate difference of opinion?

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Carey] #2380649 01/31/15 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Paul678

I'd certainly play you under the table....

Seriously guys? grin


Whomever can light a cigarette from the strings, wins!

Last edited by Damon; 01/31/15 07:20 PM. Reason: obscure reference to Legend of 1800
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: anamnesis] #2380698 01/31/15 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by anamnesis
I find it utterly bizarre that Gould brings about such strong feelings. Just like any other performer, I enjoy some facets of his playing and not others, and yet I find that this fight over Gould is far more common than it should it be. Why is it that no other performer seems to inspire such passionate difference of opinion?


I think this simply owes to his idiosyncrasies. Performers who go against the grain or have unusual approaches are polarizing because those who follow them have a special affinity or connection to their minds and souls.

Gould was a very unusual sort of fellow and usual sorts tend to congregate and connect with him in that way. The connection does run on more channels than simply that of his musicianship, and that is quite to be expected because musicians are channels who bring you into their emotional world. In a way, attacking his musicianship can be seen as an attack on his soul, or the soul of someone who closely identifies with his unusual character.

Unusual types become defensive because they are often targets, and feel misunderstood. I don't have an emotional affinity for Mr. Gould's playing, but I do have one for his personality - it takes a strong soul and a strong will and a very capable mind to do what he did and I feel like I 'get' Gould that way. It mirrors my own individualistic approach to music.

Some musicians are that way. They are unconcerned with the opinions of other musicians and rely on other kinds of criteria for greatness besides simply just the technique and the sound. Sometimes music is a philosophical and spiritual enterprise. Gould is perhaps the most idiosyncratic pianist of them all. I think he did not care in the slightest about anyone who could be listening to his inner world. He laid his soul bare, in order to take him or leave him. Many fondly take him for that reason alone because it speaks so clearly to their own musical soul. That kind of bareness is a greatness unto itself.

Gould came to challenge us all and I rather appreciate him for it. If the only thing you valued is 'beauty in tone', you could select a few pianists and never listen to anything else. Gould is a deconstructionist who engages the intellect and probes the philosophical and the spiritual, all while bringing back into vogue that great neglected master Johann Sebastian Bach. I wonder what Bach will think when Gould sits down to play for him in heaven...

And yes, I agree his playing was often very dry, percussive, and harsh. He intentionally teased and tormented the ears of his listeners, with mixed results. It is very easy to find flaws and defects compared with what is popularly pleasant to hear. I do feel that he easily had the mind and the hands to go for the 'beautiful tone' and sound like yet another iteration in his generation of popular pianists, but his soul wanted otherwise.

Last edited by Roland The Beagle; 01/31/15 11:01 PM.

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Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
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Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Roland The Beagle] #2380740 02/01/15 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Roland The Beagle
Originally Posted by anamnesis
I find it utterly bizarre that Gould brings about such strong feelings. Just like any other performer, I enjoy some facets of his playing and not others, and yet I find that this fight over Gould is far more common than it should it be. Why is it that no other performer seems to inspire such passionate difference of opinion?


I think this simply owes to his idiosyncrasies. Performers who go against the grain or have unusual approaches are polarizing because those who follow them have a special affinity or connection to their minds and souls.

Gould was a very unusual sort of fellow and usual sorts tend to congregate and connect with him in that way. The connection does run on more channels than simply that of his musicianship, and that is quite to be expected because musicians are channels who bring you into their emotional world. In a way, attacking his musicianship can be seen as an attack on his soul, or the soul of someone who closely identifies with his unusual character.

Unusual types become defensive because they are often targets, and feel misunderstood. I don't have an emotional affinity for Mr. Gould's playing, but I do have one for his personality - it takes a strong soul and a strong will and a very capable mind to do what he did and I feel like I 'get' Gould that way. It mirrors my own individualistic approach to music.

Some musicians are that way. They are unconcerned with the opinions of other musicians and rely on other kinds of criteria for greatness besides simply just the technique and the sound. Sometimes music is a philosophical and spiritual enterprise. Gould is perhaps the most idiosyncratic pianist of them all. I think he did not care in the slightest about anyone who could be listening to his inner world. He laid his soul bare, in order to take him or leave him. Many fondly take him for that reason alone because it speaks so clearly to their own musical soul. That kind of bareness is a greatness unto itself.

Gould came to challenge us all and I rather appreciate him for it. If the only thing you valued is 'beauty in tone', you could select a few pianists and never listen to anything else. Gould is a deconstructionist who engages the intellect and probes the philosophical and the spiritual, all while bringing back into vogue that great neglected master Johann Sebastian Bach. I wonder what Bach will think when Gould sits down to play for him in heaven...

And yes, I agree his playing was often very dry, percussive, and harsh. He intentionally teased and tormented the ears of his listeners, with mixed results. It is very easy to find flaws and defects compared with what is popularly pleasant to hear. I do feel that he easily had the mind and the hands to go for the 'beautiful tone' and sound like yet another iteration in his generation of popular pianists, but his soul wanted otherwise.



He was quite a fantastic spirit, and he almost never played
a wrong note:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JXSfaAvafM&list=RD6JXSfaAvafM#t=27


It's not perfect, but possibly as perfect as a human can get it.



Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2380752 02/01/15 03:11 AM
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Last time I looked the Albert Hall was still there.

'...almost never played a wrong note'!? That puts him yards ahead of Cortot!

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: chopin_r_us] #2380763 02/01/15 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Last time I looked the Albert Hall was still there.

'...almost never played a wrong note'!? That puts him yards ahead of Cortot!



Oh, sorry, I confused that with the Earls Court, which will
be demolished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBDBpQH5Hw


Last edited by Paul678; 02/01/15 06:12 AM.
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2380766 02/01/15 04:22 AM
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They are not going to tear down the Albert Hall! Albert wouldn't like that.

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: chopin_r_us] #2380774 02/01/15 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
They are not going to tear down the Albert Hall! Albert wouldn't like that.

Definitely, Royal Albert won't like that. He wouldn't be amused at all.

Neither would the Beeb - how would Prommers prom in the BBC Proms every summer, without Royal Albert?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Eldridge] #2381002 02/01/15 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
Apparently I have defective ears, because as I write this I am listening to Gould's performances of Brahms' Op. 117 Intermezzi, and I am hearing beautiful tone and ample color.

And, to take just one other example, how anyone can listen to Gould's two performances of the Goldberg and not hear beauty of tone is beyond me.

If we're going to call any performers geniuses (and it seems we do that a lot), then Gould merits the title.

Postscript: I am a musician.


My ears must be defective, too, because Gould's tone seems perfectly acceptable to me. And I think his recordings of Romantic repertoire are fine. It seems to me that it is a good thing to be able to enjoy his art, rather than not.


Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2381198 02/02/15 05:20 AM
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I have been a long term Gould "Groupie" since hearing him decades ago live in Montreal. He played publicly for only a few years afterwards so I consider myself privileged. I was so overwhelmed by his "Goldbergs" that my obssession jettisoned all ideas I had of becoming a composer ... and I dove headfirst into Baroque music ... even at one point studying harpsichord.

However years later I learned that Gould had a wicked sense of humor and wasn't above the occasional prank or two. And that he loathed Mozart.

Well a few months ago I ran across his recording of the Mozart Fantasy in D minor .... and it is so clearly a parody that I was torn between spasms of laughter over his clever disembowelment ... including tempo distortions and irrational detache sections .... and my dismay over the seriousness of the comments. Only ONE poster, besides myself seems to have gotten the joke. It's hilarious. Here's the llink below ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d07r_E_8Pc

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: TheHappyPianoMuse] #2381203 02/02/15 05:48 AM
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Gould would also never play without his chair:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlAg-yL-FfY

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2381229 02/02/15 07:31 AM
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I don't think Jonathan Baker's assessment of Glenn Gould is ridiculous. I think it's an honest and valid opinion. It's not one I share with him, but I can see where he's coming from.

Glenn Gould's sound to me is luminous and clear, but I can fully understand why some people would find it ugly and dry.

It's also true that he limited his repertoire. He didn't enjoy playing Mozart, for instance, but he played it. He didn't play much or any Rachmaninoff, his Brahms and Beethoven were completely idiosyncratic and his Bach actually was also heavily mannered.

I would say though, that with Glenn Gould, you were listening to Glenn Gould's take on Bach, or whatever he played, and that was very honest of him to do that. Glenn Gould was fully aware of the criticisms of his playing when he was alive, and my guess is that he just felt that there was no other way he could do it. He played the score as he saw it.

Personally I'm a Glenn Gould fan, but his playing is sometimes so far left-field, of course not everyone will like it. His recording of the Appassionata, for instance, to my ear, verges on the dull and uninspired, and seems mannered for the sake of it. Leonard Bernstein famously made a statement about his Brahms concerto before he took to the stage to perform it with him. It's fine.

The only thing that is stupid is when someone passes an opinion about a pianist, great or otherwise, who has been dead for more than 30 years, and someone else takes it as a personal insult.

I happen to know quite a few great pianists, not necessarily world famous although a couple are, and some of them love Glenn Gould, some of them have said 'I haven't heard one good performance from him'.

Glenn Gould himself wasn't all that interested in Horowitz, and thought that most of the music that Horowitz played wasn't that interesting because it wasn't contrapuntal. Now, I'd stick my neck out and say that's a narrow minded view - Gould himself was the most opinionated artist of his time.

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: joe80] #2381240 02/02/15 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by joe80
The only thing that is stupid is when someone passes an opinion about a pianist, great or otherwise, who has been dead for more than 30 years, and someone else takes it as a personal insult.
Exactly.

Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: joe80] #2381330 02/02/15 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80

It's also true that he limited his repertoire. He didn't enjoy playing Mozart, for instance, but he played it.


Who doesn't limit his repertoire? Whose Bach is not that particular musician's take on Bach? And is "didn't enjoy Mozart" really a criticism? Although I don't accept at face valuethe idea that Gould disliked Mozart, he might just as well have been making fun of the classical music public who "genuflect" before Mozart

In any case Gould's repertoire was not limited to Bach and slow interpretations of Brahms. An artist's repertoire is not limited to what he plays in public concerts or what he records.

I heard at a NYC public school near Union Square, I can't remember the name of the school, right near Dvorak's residence. The violinist Pamela Frank, the daughter of the pianist Claude Frank. She played a well-known piece to a rousing ovation, and after the break played a modern piece that was received very coldly by the audience. I remember having the impression that she said "that one was for you, and this one is for me". Maybe not so easy to affirm your artistic choices before hostile ears. I can't blame Gould for cultivating his interests out of the public eye.

Last edited by landorrano; 02/02/15 12:45 PM.
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2381340 02/02/15 01:00 PM
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Yes, you are correct. I completely apologize for the inappropriate language in my post. But I still stand by all my points.

However, Mr. Baker's post was not HIS "opinion"; it was just an old stereotypical opinion that he shares. All of his arguments are identical to those leveled at the pianist even while he still played concerts—so over 50 years ago. They are nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been sufficiently rebutted by myriad musicians, music lovers, and critics, including intellectuals such as Edward Said.

In fact, I highly recommend reading Said's essays about Gould. Illuminating.

Keep in mind that Ashkenazy is part of a massive business called classical music, whose ultimate goal is not the "recreation of our souls," as Bach put it, but rather the making of big money. When he claims that Gould or any other pianist fouled up a recording or performance, he's also implicitly saying, "attend my concerts, not his; buy my records, not his." For more on that, again, read Said's books of music criticism.


Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: bjorn of brekkukot] #2381356 02/02/15 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bjorn of brekkukot

In fact, I highly recommend reading Said's essays about Gould. Illuminating.

Keep in mind that Ashkenazy is part of a massive business called classical music, whose ultimate goal is not the "recreation of our souls," as Bach put it, but rather the making of big money. When he claims that Gould or any other pianist fouled up a recording or performance, he's also implicitly saying, "attend my concerts, not his; buy my records, not his." For more on that, again, read Said's books of music criticism.


Yes, groupies do tend to stick together..... wink

Let's put it this way - if Ashkenazy wanted people to buy his recordings rather than any other pianists', he'd do the dirty on Richter (Rach etc), Gilels and everyone else who recorded Beethoven, Perahia and everyone else who recorded Mozart concertos....and so on. Not Gould - Ashkenazy hardly played or recorded any Bach until his old age.

In other words, he wasn't in competition with Gould. Now let's see, what does András Schiff and Angela Hewitt say about the great Glenn? grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: bjorn of brekkukot] #2381358 02/02/15 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bjorn of brekkukot
However, Mr. Baker's post was not HIS "opinion"; it was just an old stereotypical opinion that he shares. All of his arguments are identical to those leveled at the pianist even while he still played concerts—so over 50 years ago.
Someone's opinion doesn't have to be unique to that person to be his opinion. The fact that other people shared his opinion doesn't make it weaker...it makes it stronger.


Originally Posted by bjorn of brekkukot
They are nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been sufficiently rebutted by myriad musicians, music lovers, and critics, including intellectuals such as Edward Said.
Some love Gould and some don't. Whatever Said said, that was one man's opinion. That something was "sufficiently rebutted" is your opinion.


Originally Posted by bjorn of brekkukot
Keep in mind that Ashkenazy is part of a massive business called classical music, whose ultimate goal is not the "recreation of our souls," as Bach put it, but rather the making of big money. When he claims that Gould or any other pianist fouled up a recording or performance, he's also implicitly saying, "attend my concerts, not his; buy my records, not his." For more on that, again, read Said's books of music criticism.
I don't really think a pianist of Ashkenazy's stature would think that way at all. I'm sure he makes plenty of money and has great attendance at his concerts.

Finally, the single fact of Gould's often extreme choice of tempo alone opens him up to criticism by reasonable musicians.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/02/15 01:28 PM.
Re: The "Secret" to Glen Gould's Awesome Technique? [Re: Paul678] #2381359 02/02/15 01:26 PM
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De gustibus non est disputandum.


Poetry is rhythm
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