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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Chuck Behm

When I'm regulating a grand or upright action, I routinely put a drop on every center pin bushing using a hypo oiler. Also, I put a drop on on both sides of both center pin and front rail pin key bushings for both grands and uprights and also the bushings on guide holes for grand dampers. In my opinion, it's good preventative medicine for any interface between felt and metal. I keep a quart container (available in the Schaff catalog) filled from the gallon can, and then fill the hypo oiler from the quart container. I've gotten good at filling it without a funnel without spilling any. For what they charge, it hurts to spill the slightest amount!


How about some on the capstans?

And on one of the videos I saw, the guy recommended putting
some where the hammer butt felts and the hammer butt springs
touch.


Ditto the comments on using CLP. If there were other options, people would be using them. Yes, you can use alcohol/water and other potions and they do work, but nothing holds a candle to CLP which normally works instantly and even makes headway against Steinway verdigris after a couple of minutes in many cases.

Also regarding price. Again agree with earlier poster -- if you think price is a problem, they you are way out of the ballpark in terms of what you are charging. For me, it's a total non-issue. I buy it, use it to make customers happy, get paid money and after a good long while buy some more -- happily paying whatever it costs at the time.

I store it in my tool case in a sample-size shampoo bottle (with the shampoo emptied out, of course).

The problem with most YouTube videos is that they either have some level of mis-information or are able to be construed incorrectly by novices. And that even goes for some official PTG videos.

In any case, do not put CLP on sliding felt/metal joints like capstans and keypins. It's great on action centers and on string bearing points, but the appropriate lubricant for sliding surfaces is a teflon-type film like McLube -- whose first intended application is as a mould release agent. Also, micro-fine powdered Teflon can be applied to the wippen heel felt as well as to the knuckle. CLP in sliding situations like keypins and damper wires can cause squeaks. (Not always but I've seen it happen more than once).

Just install WNG hard-anodized capstans and you have permanently ended the polishing/lubrication issue as well as making the action more responsive due to reduction of needless mass.


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I have had very limited success with Protek on Steinway verdigris. It helps, but not a lot and the sluggishness almost always comes back. It seems to work better if you hit the flanges with a heat gun after applying the Protek. I usually use heat until the flanges start to smoke. I know that sounds terrible, but it helps to burn off some of the gunk in the flanges. I then will follow with another application of Protek. Make sure to warn the client about this before hand! Seeing you aim a gun like object at at their smoking Steinway action could elicit a number of untoward responses.

The last time I did this was to a music faculty's home piano - her families old Steinway L. She said it had always been sluggish. After the treatment she was amazed and very happy.



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Originally Posted by rysowers
I have had very limited success with Protek on Steinway verdigris. It helps, but not a lot and the sluggishness almost always comes back. It seems to work better if you hit the flanges with a heat gun after applying the Protek. I usually use heat until the flanges start to smoke. I know that sounds terrible, but it helps to burn off some of the gunk in the flanges. I then will follow with another application of Protek. Make sure to warn the client about this before hand! Seeing you aim a gun like object at at their smoking Steinway action could elicit a number of untoward responses.

The last time I did this was to a music faculty's home piano - her families old Steinway L. She said it had always been sluggish. After the treatment she was amazed and very happy.


Yeah, well, with verdigris you just try to do what you can. New components are the best guaranteed fix. . .

Microwave also works -- and with less smoke. Just pop the component into the microwave and keep giving it 10 second shots until it's free. (Well, I'd give up after a half dozen, but usually notice improvement in 1 or 2.) The microwave mostly heats the pin rather than the wood.


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Greetings, Mr Sowers or anyone really -

I saw these texts a few years ago and was wondering if there are any updates to the knowledge base around Goof-Off for the verdigris question. They are interesting reads, I think.

http://moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2007-October/211806.html
http://www.mmdigest.com/Archives/Digests/200104/2001.04.06.08.html

Many thanks-


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Knowing ONLY what I read in this forum about piano tech... an exaggeration, I don't understand much of it laugh

I would be more than a little nervous of being exposed to Xylene on a regular basis.
The link in the post is dated 2007, but I was disappointed that solvents with Xylene were still on the market then - and may still be.

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Originally Posted by phacke
Greetings, Mr Sowers or anyone really -

I saw these texts a few years ago and was wondering if there are any updates to the knowledge base around Goof-Off for the verdigris question. They are interesting reads, I think.

http://moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2007-October/211806.html
http://www.mmdigest.com/Archives/Digests/200104/2001.04.06.08.html

Many thanks-


There are many solvents that can have a temporary effect on verdigris, but I wonder if any solvent based solution can last. The Xylene should eventually completely evaporate out, but all the crud will still be in the parts and I would guess they will eventually turn gummy again.

I have some goof off - I'll have to give it a try.


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I wondered if Protek CLP really was developed and produced just for the piano trade, or if in fact it was something else re-packaged. If the latter, I thought, it might be cheaper to obtain it under its original packaging, for whatever market that was intended. It's hard to find out much about the proprietors of Protek CLP, or about its formulation, apart from basic information. I bought one or two other products with "CLP" in the name - non piano products. But they weren't the same at all. After a good bit oif looking and trying, I gave up and stuck with paying for the Protek CLP. It really is so useful.

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Originally Posted by rysowers

There are many solvents that can have a temporary effect on verdigris, but I wonder if any solvent based solution can last. The Xylene should eventually completely evaporate out, but all the crud will still be in the parts and I would guess they will eventually turn gummy again.

I have some goof off - I'll have to give it a try.


Thanks for your comments, Mr Sowers,
So, I looked up Goof Off, and it is mostly Xylene as has been noted. The other active ingredient is a solvent with vapor pressure 1% that of water:

This stuff
Also know as
This stuff

So, it eventually evaporates, but slowly. Mark R (in South Africa) reported that Protek CLP dries down to nothing but a residue after some time too. I wonder what that residue looked like, i.e., some suspended lubricant particles (If they exist in it?) or just the less volatile components of the distribution you have in any petrochemicals.

Best regards-



phacke

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I've used a product called TREWAX hardwood floor cleaner to rinse verdigris from old Steinway parts. It's inexpensive and available locally. I have only experimented on parts that I replaced with new. TREWAX seems to dissolve the verdigris. After a few applications no more green crud comes out. It has only been a year but the parts still have the proper amount of friction. I did not apply TREWAX as a lubricant but as a cleaner, more like hose it out. I had to repin after treatment due to wobbly parts. CLP resulted in wobbly parts also.



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Originally Posted by R_B

I would be more than a little nervous of being exposed to Xylene on a regular basis.
The link in the post is dated 2007, but I was disappointed that solvents with Xylene were still on the market then - and may still be.


They are. You are probably right. In this day and age, there is no need, and it is not the best of ideas to use paint/lacquer thinner/stripper for the piano action application--one might accidentally strip some lacquer off of something. Still, the concepts of what and why the chemicals work or don't work is interesting.
Best wishes-


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My understanding of what agent was applied to Steinway flanges that reacted to produce the "verdigris" is: the flanges were soaked with a paraffin and naptha solution. This reduces the amount and speed with which the wood can react to humidity changes. The typical application points were the hammer and whippen flanges. Occasionally you find actions with only the hammer flanges treated, or one with all the flanges treated.

Heating the flange with a heat gun until the oil smokes and boils out of the flanges can help restore playability. But this also loosens the pin in the flange so repining is often needed. And if you are going to repin you might as well replace the flange and just clean the bushing with a solvent like acetone when the flange is removed. Then when you push the new pin in to check the size you can use a rag to pick up the gunk squeezed out of the felt. Do each side separately before you push the pin into both bushings.


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Originally Posted by phacke
So, it eventually evaporates, but slowly. Mark R (in South Africa) reported that Protek CLP dries down to nothing but a residue after some time too. I wonder what that residue looked like, i.e., some suspended lubricant particles (If they exist in it?) or just the less volatile components of the distribution you have in any petrochemicals.


Normal "Teflon spray", that one can buy in automotive supplies, is indeed a suspension of fine Teflon powder in a propellant/solvent. When the solvent evaporates, the part is covered with fine Teflon particles.

But Protek CLP is different. It is not a suspension, but a solution of some perfluorinated polymer (i.e. a material similar to Teflon) in a perfluorinated solvent. When the solvent evaporates, what remains on the centre pin is not a powder consisting of particles, but a thin, homogeneous film of the polymer. The bushing cloth is also impregnated with the polymer residue, so these two solid films then glide over each other.

Side note: I haven't been able to get Protek CLP in South Africa. It's classified as a Hazmat...


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Greetings, Mark R-
Thanks very much for your information.

By the way, here is your post about it drying up that I was mentioning:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2159441/Suitable_solvent_for_Protek_CL.html

You and others have written, "According to the manufacturer, the original solvent is a fluorinated polymer."
Just out of sheer curiosity, did you ever get the solvent you were looking for, and who is it that are your referring to, specifically, as the manufacturer, if you please.

Best wishes-


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Hi phacke,

I have not actually tried to re-dissolve my dried-out Protek CLP. Never got around to those experiments... What put me off, is that the most promising candidate, MEK, is a very aggressive solvent for plastics and finishes.

I don't know who manufactures Protek. The information that I wrote here (namely that Protek CLP is perfluoropolymer dissolved in perfluorosolvent), comes straight from the bottle.


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Originally Posted by Mark R.


Side note: I haven't been able to get Protek CLP in South Africa. It's classified as a Hazmat...



Alright, then what do you use instead?

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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Mark R.


Side note: I haven't been able to get Protek CLP in South Africa. It's classified as a Hazmat...



Alright, then what do you use instead?


I first try alcohol and water in two or three passes of varying strength. If that doesn't work, I burnish the bushing (preceded, if needed, by a light broaching/reaming) and re-pin it. Or, if the bushing is dirty and gummed-up, I would replace it outright. (Haven't done the latter often, really just for practice.)

I actually like re-pinning for the consistency that can be achieved, once one has caught onto it.


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Quote
I don't know who manufactures Protek.

Or for what purpose. I can't imagine that it's been formulated and marketed just for pianos - a very niche market. I think it must be something else repackaged.

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David,

When I read up on soluble perfluorinated polymers and suitable solvents, I came across Teflon AF (Du Pont), Cytop (Asahi Glass) and Hyflon AD (Solvay Solexis). They are used as optical (anti-reflective) coatings, photo mask covers, low-dielectric coatings on semiconductors, mould release agents, etc. - in other words, no run-of-the-mill applications.

I wouldn't be surprised if Protek CLP is the same stuff as one of these. This would also explain its price. Those soluble perfluoropolymers are expensive.


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Mark, I found some of those too, after my last post! I wonder who got the idea of piano applications for such materials, and how. Interesting.

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Well, I lubricated my Richmond's front key pins, balance rail pins, and all the capstans, with Protek CLP, and the difference is impressive.

Not only faster trilling, but smoother overall playing, and easier pianissimo ppp.

It's kinda like the difference between skating with old, beat up roller skates, and then going ice skating on a slick, smooth frozen lake!

Uhhh....well worth the $12.50, and I didn't use very much of it.

Ok, so I also got a hypo oiler from Howard piano, and I want to hit the flange center pins as well. The whippen flanges look inaccessible without removing the action. Can the jack flanges be lubed without removing each whippen, if you sneak the tip of the oiler between the parts? And can the hammer butt flanges be lubed the same way (although someone warned about too little friction being a problem there), or do you have to remove all 88 butts?

Brigham pianos recommended adding CLP to the damper lever felt where the damper spring is, for squeaking, but it's surely a friction point as well. I might add some to the hammer butt springs too.

Wow, I'll bet Teflon powder on the hammer butt leather would make
this Richmond REALLY fly!




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