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Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? #2376225
01/21/15 11:16 AM
01/21/15 11:16 AM
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bennevis Offline OP
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As the one for Johannes is eight years old, I thought I'd start one for PW's favorite composer wink (other than Fryderyk, of course). You will note that, being an inclusive sort of guy, I include both spellings of his name, depending on which side of the pond you reside.

Of all the pianists who've recorded his 'entire' piano oeuvre, I'd say Ashkenazy is the one. Especially for the concertos. But he's not actually played either the actual 1931 or 1913 version of you-know-what - only his own, mostly 1913 with stuff from 1931.

So, what about those who played/recorded a lot of Rach, but not all - who, IYO, is the 'best'?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376238
01/21/15 11:45 AM
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Rachmaninoff himself, obviously.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376262
01/21/15 12:34 PM
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Horowitz. He also played his own version of you-know-what wink. Even Rachmaninoff praised Horowitz for his performance of Concert no. 3 and encouraged him to change some spots in the Sonata.

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: Polyphonist] #2376283
01/21/15 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Rachmaninoff himself, obviously.

Yeah, that's who I always go to first for Rachmaninoff.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376286
01/21/15 01:13 PM
01/21/15 01:13 PM
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Moiseiwitsch.





Rachmaninoff considered that Moiseiwitsch played his works better than he did himself. Judge for yourself!


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376287
01/21/15 01:18 PM
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For the 2nd concerto my favorite is Richter, also for the 6 Preludes that was released along with the concerto recording.

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376308
01/21/15 02:08 PM
01/21/15 02:08 PM
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I'm an "off" kind of gal. My teacher, being Russian, thinks it's an "ov" thing and is certain the "ov" spelling must be more common in the U.S. She is wrong; "off" is most common here.

I now skirt the whole issue by calling him Pax-Man-Hob.

Problem solved.

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2376320
01/21/15 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
I'm an "off" kind of gal. My teacher, being Russian, thinks it's an "ov" thing and is certain the "ov" spelling must be more common in the U.S. She is wrong; "off" is most common here.

I believe the story is that Rach 'Americanized' his name on arrival in you-know-where, and henceforth, and forevermore, spelled his name with "off".

So, if we want to be truthful to him, himself, we should use "off'.

But.....it became a bit awkward with other Soviet artistes. I have an ancient cheap score of Prokofiev's Visions fugitives, where his name is spelled Prokofieff. And even my fairly recent volume of his Sonatas Nos. 6-9 (Boosey & Hawkes) spelled it "ff". But it seems so odd. How about Mikhail Pletneff, Denis Matsueff, Lyapunoff, Liadoff....Mstislaff Rostropovich.....?

So, in Europe, we still generally prefer "ov". Whether Rach himself approves or not, from his perch up high grin.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: phantomFive] #2376323
01/21/15 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Rachmaninoff himself, obviously.

Yeah, that's who I always go to first for Rachmaninoff.

I don't know whether it's because Ashkenazy's version of his concertos (with Previn) was the only version I knew for many years, but when I first heard Rach playing them, I was disappointed - he seems so matter-of-fact, unlike in his renditions of the solo piano repertoire, which are full of naughty touches and flights of fancy.

Especially of Chopin and Schumann, but also of his own music.



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: MRC] #2376327
01/21/15 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MRC
Rachmaninoff considered that Moiseiwitsch played his works better than he did himself.

He said a lot of modest things like that.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376328
01/21/15 03:07 PM
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My favorite comment from him about his pianism was in Chasin's book, where he said something like: Hofmann says I am the greatest pianist in the world, and I say he is, but Hofmann says he is the greatest automobile mechanic among pianists, and I know I am!


Semipro Tech
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: MRC] #2376338
01/21/15 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MRC
Moiseiwitsch.

Rachmaninoff considered that Moiseiwitsch played his works better than he did himself. Judge for yourself!


Good nomination, even if the question itself is questionable.

There is no "best" when the music has been played by more than a few fine performers, and that is especially true when it comes to composers as over-exposed as R.

Also, even though the results are usually just as mindless, when "favorite" replaces "best" in the subject line of this sort of thread, at least there is no bogus assertion that some absolute in the realm of quality has been found.



Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: Polyphonist] #2376341
01/21/15 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Rachmaninoff himself, obviously.


There isn't anything obvious about it, IMO. Composers, for various reasons, may not be the ideal interpreters of their own music, even when they are very good performers of the music of others.

In R's case, one argument that could be made is that his insecurities about his compositional abilities infected his playing of his own music, making it excessively self-conscious and restrained.

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376382
01/21/15 05:35 PM
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Hi all,

I am in the camp that believes that Rachmaninov himself should be the first to be mentioned, without question, though I understand why some people aren't fond of his portrayals of his own work. To me, his renditions seem to perfectly convey the severe contradictions in his character. Outwardly, a "six and a half foot scowl," while inwardly a gushing sentimentalist. Ergo, his interpretations are solid and rather stoic while the writing is overflowing with emotion.

I concur with the mentions of Richter, whose considerable strengths seem particularly suited to this repertoire.

Santiago Rodriguez has made some very fine recordings of the sonatas, preludes, and various other pieces. His approach is muscular, rhythmic and direct. Sadly, it seems he has abandoned his plans to record the complete works.

I have a special fondness for Sofronitsky's take on Rachmaninov although I'd concede that his approach probably isn't the most representative of what can be considered "Rachmaninov-esque."

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: vers la flan] #2376445
01/21/15 08:45 PM
01/21/15 08:45 PM
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My personal favourite for the 1st and 2nd concertos: Krystian Zimerman.
Too bad he didn't record the other works. I'm particularly interested to hear how he would approach the 3rd.


"It always seems impossible until it's done."
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: vers la flan] #2376446
01/21/15 08:47 PM
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Consider that R's Mozart was just plain awful, too much him and almost no Mozart, none of the appropriate style or articulation. Same with most of his other recording except his own, where he plays his own pieces, after everything is said and done, quite simply and affectingly.

But it's not the only way to play his music.

R was arguably the best and greatest pianist of that era. Horowitz said so, and I believe he was right. However, it is highly arguable what kind interpreter he was of other people's works. I would not have paid to hear him play Schumann, for instance.

I am generally impressed by most every "reference" recording of his works. I know that makes me "easy", but I have to argue that at the same time it also makes me expensive. Take that for what it's worth.

Why don't we argue the point from the other side of the table, for a minute? E. G., who do you "hate" playing R's works?

I think that is a much easier and more interesting question. After all, just because a composer wrote a piece doesn't make them the best interpreter of it, as wr said. Many composers have turned out to not be the best champions of their own works.


Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: OrpheusEF] #2376454
01/21/15 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OrpheusEF
My personal favourite for the 1st and 2nd concertos: Krystian Zimerman.
Too bad he didn't record the other works. I'm particularly interested to hear how he would approach the 3rd.

I believe that he will play the 3rd one day - in an interview a few years ago, he described it in monumental terms, a gigantic work requiring years of study. It should be worth the wait when he finally deems himself ready to play it - with the big cadenza, of course thumb.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376513
01/22/15 12:59 AM
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I'm not sure how one really judges interpretations of Rachmaninoff. I feel like the huge gulf between the way Rachmaninoff's music looks on the page, and the way he actually played it, makes it almost impossible to judge any interpreter by the measure of obedience to the page. And yet it hardly seems fair to praise someone for aping his style, however well they do it.

Richter, Moiseiwitsch, Horowitz, and Merzhanov are some of the names that spring to mind, but I gladly listen to them playing almost anything because they are such originals.

Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376518
01/22/15 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis

I believe that he will play the 3rd one day - in an interview a few years ago, he described it in monumental terms, a gigantic work requiring years of study. It should be worth the wait when he finally deems himself ready to play it - with the big cadenza, of course thumb.

Yes, that would be worth the wait.

Incidentally, when driving home this evening, our local station played the 3rd with Matsuev/Gergiev. I missed the first movement, but from what I heard in the other movements, this was powerhouse Rachmaninov playing, channeling memories of Horowitz and Wild.

But I was rather surprised that the once standard cut in the 3rd movement (14 measures at the meno mosso) was taken. I honestly thought we were past that, and I do have to wonder was it the conductor or pianist's idea? My hunch is the former, knowing a bit about Gergiev. And as many people know, Horowitz and Wild also took that cut.

Edit: IIRC, Horowitz played it complete with Ormandy, but I don't have that CD -I never liked that performance- and am too lazy to work through yt videos.

Last edited by argerichfan; 01/22/15 01:15 AM. Reason: 2nd thoughts

Jason
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: argerichfan] #2376870
01/22/15 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan

Incidentally, when driving home this evening, our local station played the 3rd with Matsuev/Gergiev. I missed the first movement, but from what I heard in the other movements, this was powerhouse Rachmaninov playing, channeling memories of Horowitz and Wild.

But I was rather surprised that the once standard cut in the 3rd movement (14 measures at the meno mosso) was taken. I honestly thought we were past that, and I do have to wonder was it the conductor or pianist's idea? My hunch is the former, knowing a bit about Gergiev. And as many people know, Horowitz and Wild also took that cut.

That cut is still occasionally done in performances today - usually by Russian performers. (As is the cut in the slow movement of Tchaikovsky's 2nd). I agree that Matsuev's Rach 3 is in the full-blooded Russian tradition (it's my favorite of recent recordings) - as is his Rach 2 which he played in the BBC Proms last year.

Another cut commonly made is in the climax of the first movement cadenza (after the two alternatives have converged) - Horowitz with Ormandy (and Mehta, in the DVD) still cut it.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2376930
01/22/15 11:30 PM
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Rach playing Rach is so restrained and mechanical (in the sense of spot-on note-accuracy and rhythm). Listen to some of his more outrageous technical compositions, like the middle section of the E minor prelude (op.32 no.4), and you'll also wonder why such an occasionally aggressive composer chose to play his own works so clinically.

Rach 3 has been eaten up in this thread, so I'll add only one name: Lazar Berman. His cadenza ossia is the most powerful, but some may find it too fast.

Sofronitsky has some uniquely satisfying ideas about the Moments Musicaux (op. 16); it's hard to beat him here. You'll want to hear the 2nd and 5th to really see him shine.

Alexis Weissenberg recorded slam-dunk interpretations of Rach 3, the 1st sonata, and the Db prelude (op.32 no. 13). The last piece is especially worth a listen.

For the etudes op.39, look no further than Nikolai Lugansky and Andrei Gavrilov. Together, these two deliver the whole set. You MAY prefer Daniil Trifonov's A minor op.39 no.2; he has a special way with this slow piece that one rarely hears (it's usually slow and lugubrious, but he makes it sing and float).

For the etudes op.33, there are many ordinary, everyday pianists on YouTube that bring the goods. I've found some of my favorites right here on PianoWorld.

The Borodin Trio has THE most perfect Piano Trios no.1 and 2. (G minor, D minor); you need to hear the first Trio if you haven't already, it'll change the way you think of the big R.

The second symphony has an awesome opening motif in the second movement. I like the Antwerp Philharmonic's take on it, but I haven't ever felt the need to shop around for this piece.

Our own (Pianoworld's) verqueue has a stellar B minor prelude op.32 no.10, you owe it to yourself to check out her playing: http://youtu.be/T8HW8cN5laM

Might post more later if I remember others.


Beethoven - Op.49 No.1 (sonata 19)
Czerny - Op.299 Nos. 5,7 (School of Velocity)
Liszt - S.172 No.2 (Consolation No.2)

Dream piece:
Rachmaninoff - Sonata 2, movement 2 in E minor
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: BDB] #2376935
01/22/15 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
My favorite comment from him about his pianism was in Chasin's book, where he said something like: Hofmann says I am the greatest pianist in the world, and I say he is, but Hofmann says he is the greatest automobile mechanic among pianists, and I know I am!


Thanks for this. I love learning about my hero's personality through the little bits and pieces of his non-musical life that survive through factoids like this smile.


Beethoven - Op.49 No.1 (sonata 19)
Czerny - Op.299 Nos. 5,7 (School of Velocity)
Liszt - S.172 No.2 (Consolation No.2)

Dream piece:
Rachmaninoff - Sonata 2, movement 2 in E minor
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: Dwscamel] #2376942
01/23/15 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dwscamel
Rach playing Rach is so restrained and mechanical (in the sense of spot-on note-accuracy and rhythm). Listen to some of his more outrageous technical compositions, like the middle section of the E minor prelude (op.32 no.4), and you'll also wonder why such an occasionally aggressive composer chose to play his own works so clinically.

I've always wondered about that too.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Best interpreter for Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov? [Re: bennevis] #2377110
01/23/15 11:09 AM
01/23/15 11:09 AM
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Here are my preferences, as of 2011. They haven't substantially changed since then:

http://hankdrake.blogspot.com/2011/04/happy-birthday-mr-rachmaninoff.html


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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