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Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376268
01/21/15 12:49 PM
01/21/15 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer

Would love to work on this problem, but so much else to do.


So you're happy to tell us that our wildest dreams are within your scope to deliver but you're going to deny us?

It's a bit like when the counter assistant says "I'm afraid we've just sold the last one". I don't really want to know.

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Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376269
01/21/15 12:55 PM
01/21/15 12:55 PM
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dire tonic, "...registry hack..." as in regedit and Windows Registry? Yuck!! Boo!!


No real talent for the Piano.
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: bennevis] #2376270
01/21/15 12:56 PM
01/21/15 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
PS Bennevis, any chance of you recreating this preset for the V-Piano? smile


Hmmm......recreate the sound of Zimerman's personal piano (he refuses to play on any other, and regulates and tunes his own pianos....)? That's a big challenge.

Give me a few hours until I get home - I'm still at work at present.


- isn't it about time the V-piano mob (all four of them?) had their own sub-forum? No one else takes this seriously, surely?

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376271
01/21/15 12:57 PM
01/21/15 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer
dire tonic, "...registry hack..." as in regedit and Windows Registry? Yuck!! Boo!!


Where's the problem?

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Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376273
01/21/15 12:58 PM
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DT, Hah! Yes I know how to solve the problem.... but I ain't gonna tell you! smile

Concerning the registry hack.... well known that if you mess up the registry Windows goes KaBoom (in strange and every so subtle ways... or not). Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not highly recommended.

Last edited by pspicer; 01/21/15 01:01 PM.

No real talent for the Piano.
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376279
01/21/15 01:04 PM
01/21/15 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer
MD, the Fourier transform, Devolution, Wavelet approaches will give you a good first approximation. But as Dewster mentioned, you will spend the next 20 yrs trying to refine that approach for all of the non fundamental dynamics.

The problem is partially that the real world (music production, listening environment, ..) is a dynamical system including chaotic factors. It is not clear that a deterministic algorithmic approach will work for that class of problem.

I suspect that the next evolution will be a non-linear distributed network approach (possibly neural network [not really though]) - but then you will lose the ability to tweak individual parameters as they will be embedded in the system when trained.

So the eventual final solution might get back to a heavily modeled computation approach that extends the modeling functions waaay outside of the piano space (piano + microphone).

Would love to work on this problem, but so much else to do.


The Liverpool Philharmonic Hall was world renowned for having excellent acoustics. They say it was uncomfortable - with wooden benches rather than seats, but approaching perfection for the music lover (or even audiophile smile ). When it burned to the ground in the 1930's, my mother said that, when she went into school the next day, the music teacher was sobbing at the piano, during the morning assembly.

They tried and tried to reproduce the acoustic qualities of the place, even copying the fixtures and fittings of the wooden benches, but it never was very successful. In the end, they built an cavernous art deco building which is now grade II listed, despite being a bit of an ugly monstrosity.

But it makes you wonder where the magic was, in the original hall, and where it ended up as the whole lot went up in smoke on the fateful evening of 5 July 1933.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376282
01/21/15 01:09 PM
01/21/15 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer
TonyB, seems to me you are a mature, balanced perspective kind of guy. Well done on not rising to the provocative statements made against your position or your keyboard smile.

There are probably business imperatives that dictate the marketing and product roadmaps for the DP manufacturers - I daresay those among us who push for faster adoption of technology would likely make the same decisions if we were fully aware of the facts and were in the decision makers 'shoes'.

However, there does seem to be other competitive pressures building that will become more mainstream. For example the sophistication of the modeled and sampled computer based solutions is undeniable - the challenge for embedded DPs is how their on-board sounds can remain relevant given that dynamic.

I advocate a separation of concerns approach, and if I were part of the DP manufacturing community I would advocate to still have on-board sounds. But I would also put into place a strategy of extending my reach (and ownership / control of) the externalities affecting the whole DP experience... software (samples, modeling, others), systems integration with VSTs, audio hardware, packaging, etc.

Anyway, good conversations all round.


There seem to be as many perspectives on the DP market as there are people involved, whether customers or those creating the product. I would not be at all surprised if engineers behind the product feel frustrated by limitations imposed by marketing, for example, because this is very common with many products (rather than because of anything particular about DP manufacturing).

With customers, there are many who are perfectly satisfied with today's console models and will probably hang on to and use their current purchases for a long time to come. Then, there are those who want to tinker, being either just curious as to what can be done or because they are dissatisfied with what is currently available.

I purchased Pianoteq last summer when v 5 came out. I intended to use it with my Casio PX-5S. I used it with my i7 Ultrabook, using SSD (though not really an issue with Pianoteq as it woudl be with a large sample library). It worked fine, but I really don't want a bunch of stuff connected together to make a workable DP. My setup consisted of my DP, my Ultrabook, and a pair of powered monitors (Roland CM-30).

When the V-Grand came along, my wife decided she wanted to reward me for having worked so many years, paying off the mortgage, putting us through school, taking care of her medical bills, and putting together a workable retirement, while keeping us completely out of debt. If there is anything special about the V-Grand to me beyond what the product may offer, it is my wife's involvement and reasons for getting it.

I am one of those customers who wants it all in one box. I deal with computers every day (I came out of retirement to do some contract engineering with my wife's recent trip to the Mayo Clinic and more to come) and would rather make music on something resembling a musical instrument. This is personal preference and not a reflection on whether other solutions are viable/good/bad/etc. We each must choose what we want to work with, and such decisions have little to no bearing on what somebody else chooses to do. I feel that the market is large enough to offer most people something.

I do think the state of the art with DPs will continue to improve, and acknowledge that it has been improving all along, though I realize that is not in agreement with some others here. I am fine with that, and hope they are too. We don't all have to agree on everything.

Due to my embedded engineering experience, I could talk about the nuts and bolts of this technology too, but choose not to. I would rather focus on the end product and the fact that today people can aford to buy a decent enough instrument that the average person can enjoy. Maybe the V-Grand is suitable for concerts as in several Youtube videos, and maybe not. I really don't care because it is good enough for me. Same thing with the other models and brands. They are clearly good enough for many, since this is a growing market.

That said, there is always room for improvement and people to push to make that happen. So, discuss away and maybe there will be some positive influence on manufacturers to come out of it. But keep it civil if you expect them to pay attention and listen. Such discussion is not the same as dealing with a pissed off customer whose DP just broke down and left the person frustrated with that situation. I am sure there is frustration on the part of some here about how things could be done better given the technology available today, so I can't ignore that either. All in all, I sincerely hope everybody eventually gets what they want.

Tony


Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: toddy] #2376284
01/21/15 01:12 PM
01/21/15 01:12 PM
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toddy, that is a pretty sad story and most unfortunate. It speaks to the multitude of factors (some of which I am sure we do not understand) that contribute to the listening experience.


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Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376285
01/21/15 01:12 PM
01/21/15 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer
DT, Hah! Yes I know how to solve the problem.... but I ain't gonna tell you! smile

Concerning the registry hack.... well known that if you mess up the registry Windows goes KaBoom (in strange and every so subtle ways... or not). Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not highly recommended.


- like some auto-activities might make you go blind?

Don't believe everything your parents told you. I've been all over my registry for the last 10 years without so much as an electron changing orbit.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376290
01/21/15 01:22 PM
01/21/15 01:22 PM
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dt, Hah! and for the last 20+ years, I am the guy they call to fix the damn things. Yes from Windows 3.1....


No real talent for the Piano.
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: pspicer] #2376291
01/21/15 01:26 PM
01/21/15 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pspicer
dt, Hah! and for the last 20+ years, I am the guy they call to fix the damn things. Yes from Windows 3.1....


my sympathies! Seriously, this hack is totally benign - as are almost all hacks involving initial/default setting values for 3rd party software. If it doesn't work you retrace...simples.

In any case, anyone not using Acronis or similar with a PC is taking a needless risk IMO.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: DazedAndConfused] #2376292
01/21/15 01:26 PM
01/21/15 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Chewbacca

When trying any piano (digital or acoustic) I play the first 2 minutes of Debussy's "Sunken Cathedrale". Very good way to judge how the piano reacts to long chords, overtones, change of touch, repedalling, tonal shifts etc... Never had any good result on a DP (or software) with this tune. Best results were achieved on Pianoteq and Yam's N2, not stellar but way better than average. Have not tried it on the V-piano but would love to.



That's precisely what sorts out the sheep from the goats - the fifty shades of grey grin.

Definitely, make haste and play Debussy on the V. You'll find out immediately why pianists (like me, myself) who value subtlety, and all the finer shades of expression are enamored by the V.......


This would be my Turing Test for a musical instrument for playing music written for the piano:

http://youtu.be/q4q5769HWCI?t=22m5s

Any piano (digital or otherwise) that can provide the huge tonal and dynamic range required for a piece like this is the gold standard. I've yet to play a sampled piano that comes close. Those that I have played all hit a limit at both ends of the dynamic range and don't offer anything like the tonal variety required, especially for the extended crescendos in this piece.

A modelled piano is absolutely required, one that allows you to voice individual notes so that you can have that bell like clarity in the treble as well as the gruff, aggressive, wiriness in the bass and punch in the midrange.

I doubt if any manufacturer voiced their piano like this before sampling it ... but I am willing to be proved wrong ....

PS Bennevis, any chance of you recreating this preset for the V-Piano? smile






A Turing test: yes that's exactly right.

But are we comparing a piano performance, AS HEARD LIVE SITTING IN A CONCERT HALL, to a sampled or modelled (pure synthetic) piano sample (as in the Debussy) AS HEARD THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS? Is that the Turing test?

IF SO then the difference will be obvious, and the test will be failed, for sure. The sample pushing out sound THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS will always be trumped by the sound of a piano heard directly, without speakers. Speaker technology isn't there yet. AT ALL. (Quite apart from all the other issues inherent in the example: touch, let-off, hammer weight, tuning, etc...)

But (as in the original Turing test) a lot depends on how you set the test up.

Here's another test:

A. a REAL TIME performance on a real piano, which IS NOT "HEARD DIRECTLY " but is heard THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS (or headphones)

VS

B. a REAL TIME sampled or synthed piano performance, which--of necessity--is ALSO heard through loudspeakers?!

Under these conditions the difference between "real" and "synthed" might be difficult to tell, especially if the test uses run-of-the-mill speakers or headphones.

In short, piano samples vs real pianos, BUT AS LISTENED TO or AS HEARD THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS, can be very hard to tell apart, even with material as carefully recorded and played as the Debussy sample mentioned above.

BUT as you make the test more comprehensive, the distinction between "real" and "fake," becomes much easier to make, and the Turing test much more difficult to pass.

TEST #3 PLAYING real vs PLAYING fake:
In this instance we have, on one hand, the feel of real let-off, real sustain, real hammer weight, real sympathetic vibrations, real slightly out-of-tune tri-chords and most important of all, REAL SOUND hitting REAL walls before hitting your REAL EARDRUMS. On the other hand, we have a modelled or sampled version of the above, plus--most importantly--the modelled or sampled sound of a piano reaching the eardrum of the player, not directly, BUT VIA LOUDSPEAKERS.

No contest. Turing test result: the fake FAILS to pass the test.

The "weak link" in the chain is not the sampling, but what is hitting your eardrums, as well as the felt sense of REAL let-off, hammer weight, etc.. under the fingers.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: toddy] #2376294
01/21/15 01:28 PM
01/21/15 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
I gave Alicia Keys as an example - it's the same for all the other NI instruments, as well as third party products running inside Kontakt. About one minute to load 500MB.

I'm sorry to hear that. For me personally any waiting for loading an instrument wouldn't be acceptable.

One thing though - in Vintage D, the original configuration loads very slow, while all user-saved configurations load instantly. I recall even reading about this in the manual. Perhaps the same could also work for other Kontakt instruments?


Kawai CA65 :: Galaxy: Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Giant :: Pianoteq 5 :: Kontakt 5 :: Reaper :: True Keys pianos
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376315
01/21/15 02:41 PM
01/21/15 02:41 PM
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Some years' ago I played the Yamaha Grantouch and the Yamaha concert grand - went from one to the other. No contest, but DPs have come quite a way since then. Still not there, but for many, if not most, near enough.

A valid test would be - having somehow equalised the ffff volume - to have an acoustically transparent screen and the listener hear the same pianist go from DP to AP and back again a few times. Pianists I believe would hear the difference, but many non-pianists may not.

Re the "shades of grey": it is the action which provides the facility for shading the sound in those subtle ways and most (all?) DPs do not have a first class action. AP actions are indeed expensive, but AP keybeds not so costly. Is it so difficult for Kawai/Yamaha to attach the elctronic gubbins to a standard keybed for a reasonable cost? The VPC1 spec for instance does not say the keybed is the same as, say, one of the acoustic grands. Perhaps there are technical difficulties, but I believe that the costs of the Avant Grands etc are beyond many enthusiasts pocket and skillful but poor pianists are missing out. My experience with sampled pianos and Pianoteq, using the ES7, is that the limitations are with the ES7 action and the relatively few layers of the sampled sets, but only with the ES7 in relation to Pianoteq. I can get very fine shades of tone at a slow tempo with Pianoteq but the short key length will trip me up every so often at a fast pace, resulting in a lumpy sound. Pianoteq is immediately more playable, more like an acoustic. Not knocking the ES7 - I enjoy playing it and it's good value for the price - but longer keys really would make a difference and I find it difficult to believe that the cost of a bit more wood and machining would push prices up so much, for enthusiasts, of course, we are still talking about a small minority of customers. Maybe the resulting increase in size of the cabinet or enclosure is the largest cost factor.

Someone will no doubt tell me I've got it all wrong, but for me, playing and therefore listening via the ES7 and Pianoteq, and then listening via active monitors in a 25 foot room is not so different from listening to the Kawai RX2 - different sound of course anyway, "Bluethner" or "Steinway" vs echt Kawai - but comparable nonetheless.

I do not aspire to an acoustic concert grand - actually been there and done that in a previous house - in my relatively small room. An approximation to, say, a 6' grand - which more than fills my room - would suffice. A few more tweaks to Pianoteq and a better keybed would narrow the gap very considerably. Pianoteq will certainly improve their product. Better affordable hardware would be nice. And I'm quite happy supplying the computer, DAC and speakers.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376319
01/21/15 02:47 PM
01/21/15 02:47 PM
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@Toddy

Ivory American D has around 47 GB of samples since the samples are uncompressed, still, cantabile player loads any preset in 3 seconds on my PC when using all the velocity layers, same when loaded as a VST from within Cubase

I have kontakt free player with the giant which is around 4 Gb with compressed samples and takes a little longer to load ... but again of the order of perhaps 3 - 4 seconds perhaps, much less than 10 seconds for sure. Presumably it has to do some reverse algorithm of the compression to get the full data before loading to RAM.

In any case, it is all pretty much instant in that sort of time scale for me.

I imagine if you are short on RAM, got standard hard drives vesus SSD would increase quite a bit, but still. I used a standard drive 7200 RPM that was near full up with data a while back as an experiment with the Gaint, it as still under 10 seconds loading time. If your hardware is reasonably up to date though I would not expect that, 1 minute seems to perhaps suggest

Houston we have problem

or if you wish to reveal what sort of laptop/PC specs you are using that may be telling. You can diagnose these things under the windows task manager and performance tools if you got a windows versions like Pro edition or above, not sure home edition has these features but there are tools around for free download so you can profile everything should you so wish to find the culprit/bottleneck.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 01/21/15 02:49 PM.

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Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2376331
01/21/15 03:17 PM
01/21/15 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant

A Turing test: yes that's exactly right.

But are we comparing a piano performance, AS HEARD LIVE SITTING IN A CONCERT HALL, to a sampled or modelled (pure synthetic) piano sample (as in the Debussy) AS HEARD THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS? Is that the Turing test?


That is quite amusing in this context. The Debussy piece you heard was played by Krystian Zimerman on his Steinway D not a digital.

Quote
IF SO then the difference will be obvious, and the test will be failed, for sure. The sample pushing out sound THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS will always be trumped by the sound of a piano heard directly, without speakers. Speaker technology isn't there yet. AT ALL. (Quite apart from all the other issues inherent in the example: touch, let-off, hammer weight, tuning, etc...)


It depends on the question. If the question is which piano do you prefer the sound of, either the digital will win or the acoustic grand will win, depending on the choice of music, the skill of the pianist and the quality and condition of the acoustic piano. Is a V-Piano Grand ever going to be preferred to an immaculately prepared Steinway D by the vast majority of people? Probably not, but that doesn't imply that it is 'fake'.

Perhaps a better test would be for the same pianist to play a wide variety of music on a number of well prepared acoustic and high end digital pianos live, from behind an acoustically transparent screen. We could ask a randomly selected knowledgeable audience to rate the quality of each performance to see if there are any digitals that can compete or even beat acoustic pianos in terms of musicality.

As soon as you start asking "guess the fake", the audience will naturally concentrate on the sound, listening for digital artifacts and imperfections but digital pianos are not supposed to be "authentic-piano-sound" making machines! They are supposed to be MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS on which you can play music written for piano! I think too many people in this forum forget that.

So let us have the audience concentrate on the musicality that can be expressed. If a skilled pianist can give an equally moving, compelling performance of a demanding piece on a digital piano in a live environment then for me, that piano has passed the Turing performance and listening test and is a bona fide musical instrument, whether it sounds like the piano of your dreams or not.

I suggest the Debussy piece I linked to above or maybe Gaspard de la Nuit. Both pieces provide an extreme test of dynamics, tonal range and without a highly responsive and expressive keyboard action and without perfect integration, both pieces would be an utter disaster.

PS I am talking about the demands of classical music because that is my interest. The same Turing Test could apply to Gary Barlow playing live music by Take That on different pianos although naturally it would be much easier for a digital piano to pass in that situation, as they do every day in live pop/rock concerts around the world where the audience are not questioning if the piano sounds are 'real' or 'fake'...

PPS Cheers, Bennevis. I like a man who likes a challenge! I look forward to your Krystian Z preset(s) in due course. smile

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2376356
01/21/15 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
@Toddy

Ivory American D has around 47 GB of samples since the samples are uncompressed, still, cantabile player loads any preset in 3 seconds on my PC when using all the velocity layers, same when loaded as a VST from within Cubase

I have kontakt free player with the giant which is around 4 Gb with compressed samples and takes a little longer to load ... but again of the order of perhaps 3 - 4 seconds perhaps, much less than 10 seconds for sure. Presumably it has to do some reverse algorithm of the compression to get the full data before loading to RAM.

In any case, it is all pretty much instant in that sort of time scale for me.

I imagine if you are short on RAM, got standard hard drives vesus SSD would increase quite a bit, but still. I used a standard drive 7200 RPM that was near full up with data a while back as an experiment with the Gaint, it as still under 10 seconds loading time. If your hardware is reasonably up to date though I would not expect that, 1 minute seems to perhaps suggest

Houston we have problem

or if you wish to reveal what sort of laptop/PC specs you are using that may be telling. You can diagnose these things under the windows task manager and performance tools if you got a windows versions like Pro edition or above, not sure home edition has these features but there are tools around for free download so you can profile everything should you so wish to find the culprit/bottleneck.


Yes, well the computer is based on two Intel Xeons rated 3.4GHz - this should be plenty, but in fact they are rather inefficient compared to a good i7 or AMD equivalent. The hard disk runs at 7200 rpm, and RAM is 8 GB, which is not bad - many people seem to get by with 4GB to run virtual pianos and such.

But I'm not really worried about loading times - gives me a pause to think about how to play the part smile The real limiting factor is that you can't run many tracks together without running into problems at 128 samples in the buffer, so I have to work with 512 quite often, which of course gives a very noticeable latency (over 30ms).

One day, I hope, I'll get a new computer.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: TonyB] #2376385
01/21/15 05:51 PM
01/21/15 05:51 PM
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Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyB
I would not be at all surprised if engineers behind the product feel frustrated by limitations imposed by marketing, for example, because this is very common with many products (rather than because of anything particular about DP manufacturing).

I would bet that is the case too. Then again, if no one is expecting the engineers to do anything even remotely bleeding edge, the job is suddenly a heck of a lot easier.

Originally Posted by TonyB
...I really don't want a bunch of stuff connected together to make a workable DP...I am one of those customers who wants it all in one box.

Same here. I expect to pay extra for the integration, but not hugely so.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I do think the state of the art with DPs will continue to improve, and acknowledge that it has been improving all along, though I realize that is not in agreement with some others here.

It continues to improve, though glacially, and it didn't exactly have a head start to begin with.

Originally Posted by TonyB
That said, there is always room for improvement and people to push to make that happen. So, discuss away and maybe there will be some positive influence on manufacturers to come out of it. But keep it civil if you expect them to pay attention and listen.

Neither I, nor they, are in this to make friends. But if they expect me to bow and scrape while generally pointing out the obvious to them they can go jump in a lake.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: dewster] #2376392
01/21/15 06:08 PM
01/21/15 06:08 PM
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TonyB Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by TonyB
I would not be at all surprised if engineers behind the product feel frustrated by limitations imposed by marketing, for example, because this is very common with many products (rather than because of anything particular about DP manufacturing).

I would bet that is the case too. Then again, if no one is expecting the engineers to do anything even remotely bleeding edge, the job is suddenly a heck of a lot easier.

Originally Posted by TonyB
...I really don't want a bunch of stuff connected together to make a workable DP...I am one of those customers who wants it all in one box.

Same here. I expect to pay extra for the integration, but not hugely so.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I do think the state of the art with DPs will continue to improve, and acknowledge that it has been improving all along, though I realize that is not in agreement with some others here.

It continues to improve, though glacially, and it didn't exactly have a head start to begin with.

Originally Posted by TonyB
That said, there is always room for improvement and people to push to make that happen. So, discuss away and maybe there will be some positive influence on manufacturers to come out of it. But keep it civil if you expect them to pay attention and listen.

Neither I, nor they, are in this to make friends. But if they expect me to bow and scrape while generally pointing out the obvious to them they can go jump in a lake.


I am sorry you feel this way. We definitely have different views of how we would want to interact with other people. I think civility goes a long way when asking for what we want. I was out of line in a comment I made to you and publicly apologized. I will continue to do that if I get out of line, but it is clear to me that different people have different senses as to what "out of line" may be. I personally think some of the things said to manufactures in this forum are out of line, but then we are all different.

Tony

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: PtJaa] #2376394
01/21/15 06:10 PM
01/21/15 06:10 PM
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Portugal
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toddy Online content
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Originally Posted by PtJaa
Originally Posted by toddy
I gave Alicia Keys as an example - it's the same for all the other NI instruments, as well as third party products running inside Kontakt. About one minute to load 500MB.

I'm sorry to hear that. For me personally any waiting for loading an instrument wouldn't be acceptable.


It'll do me for now, no problem. So long as is does load eventually, I'm not worried.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: TonyB] #2376403
01/21/15 06:38 PM
01/21/15 06:38 PM
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dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyB
I am sorry you feel this way. We definitely have different views of how we would want to interact with other people.

People are one thing, corporations are quite another, and it's sometimes difficult to figure out how to deal with individuals who represent corporations, particularly when the lines are being blurred and they seem to want you to follow the internal rules of their particular fiefdom, or they are using the dynamics of personal interaction to further their own corporate interests. Corporations spend a lot on kinder, gentler image fluff, but the bottom line is money and that is pretty harsh. I don't make the rules.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I think civility goes a long way when asking for what we want.

When it comes to people, yes. When it comes to asking a corporation to do the right thing, maybe and maybe not. When it comes to discussing products with third parties civility is moot.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I was out of line in a comment I made to you and publicly apologized.

Thank you, but I was attacking your actions so if anyone should be apologizing it's me.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I personally think some of the things said to manufactures in this forum are out of line, but then we are all different.

Manufacturers don't care if we live or die, as long as we can somehow manage to buy their products, even if somehow from beyond the grave. They might employ the nicest guys in the world who pet their cats and such but it's all about the Benjamins. If the customer is indeed always right then here I am, asking for what I want. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: TonyB] #2376407
01/21/15 06:49 PM
01/21/15 06:49 PM
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by TonyB
I would not be at all surprised if engineers behind the product feel frustrated by limitations imposed by marketing, for example, because this is very common with many products (rather than because of anything particular about DP manufacturing).

I would bet that is the case too. Then again, if no one is expecting the engineers to do anything even remotely bleeding edge, the job is suddenly a heck of a lot easier.

Originally Posted by TonyB
...I really don't want a bunch of stuff connected together to make a workable DP...I am one of those customers who wants it all in one box.

Same here. I expect to pay extra for the integration, but not hugely so.

Originally Posted by TonyB
I do think the state of the art with DPs will continue to improve, and acknowledge that it has been improving all along, though I realize that is not in agreement with some others here.

It continues to improve, though glacially, and it didn't exactly have a head start to begin with.

Originally Posted by TonyB
That said, there is always room for improvement and people to push to make that happen. So, discuss away and maybe there will be some positive influence on manufacturers to come out of it. But keep it civil if you expect them to pay attention and listen.

Neither I, nor they, are in this to make friends. But if they expect me to bow and scrape while generally pointing out the obvious to them they can go jump in a lake.


I am sorry you feel this way. We definitely have different views of how we would want to interact with other people. I think civility goes a long way when asking for what we want. I was out of line in a comment I made to you and publicly apologized. I will continue to do that if I get out of line, but it is clear to me that different people have different senses as to what "out of line" may be. I personally think some of the things said to manufactures in this forum are out of line, but then we are all different.

Tony


Tony, whilst I agree with you on the value of courtesy in life, I think part of the lack of restraint on Dewster's part is that he is all too aware that DP manufacturers are not listening to us on these forums. They have no presence here on the product development side - although it is nice to have Kawai James and Jay Roland here to assist with product information and service issues.

There are a few issues with DPs that have been commented on ad nauseum for the entire time I've been on this forum - the manufacturers are on their own trajectory which is quite immune to suggestions from us. For example, most DPs (with your own being one of the few exceptions) have an unnaturally short decay time and obvious looping in the decay. This is a major shortcoming which could be addressed with minimal expense and effort. It's not even new technology - just add some more memory so that the decay is not accelerated and so looping isn't necessary. DPs are woefully stingy with memory. It doesn't cost that much to double or even triple the memory so that we can have full length (unlooped) samples.

The decay issue is my biggest single gripe with DPs. It's such a simple fix. No R & D needed, a few extra bucks per unit. If they can't even manage this simple fix which has been discussed so many times, then they aren't listening. It's things like this that result in less than courteous language about them. They aren't listening, so there's no real need for the courtesy. It would be nice if they would pay us the courtesy of listening and implementing these simple improvements.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: DazedAndConfused] #2376409
01/21/15 06:59 PM
01/21/15 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant

A Turing test: yes that's exactly right.

But are we comparing a piano performance, AS HEARD LIVE SITTING IN A CONCERT HALL, to a sampled or modelled (pure synthetic) piano sample (as in the Debussy) AS HEARD THROUGH LOUDSPEAKERS? Is that the Turing test?


That is quite amusing in this context. The Debussy piece you heard was played by Krystian Zimerman on his Steinway D not a digital.

Sorry, you've misunderstood me. OF COURSE ZIMERMAN is playing a "REAL" piano!!! No doubt there at all. I wasn't referring to the Zimerman recording. Just posing the question in a general way.

(Speaking of Zimerman, he grew up learning to take piano apart and put it back together again. So he's both a technician and a (fabulous) pianist.)

By "fake" I don't mean "bad" or "second rate." Just an amusing shorthand for vst samples, dps, etc...

I use one myself, and my Bach WTC 1 at Youtube uses a "fake" piano throughout!!! (I approve of them.)

JG

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: ando] #2376415
01/21/15 07:14 PM
01/21/15 07:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 98
Canada
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Originally Posted by ando

Tony, whilst I agree with you on the value of courtesy in life, I think part of the lack of restraint on Dewster's part is that he is all too aware that DP manufacturers are not listening to us on these forums. They have no presence here on the product development side - although it is nice to have Kawai James and Jay Roland here to assist with product information and service issues.

There are a few issues with DPs that have been commented on ad nauseum for the entire time I've been on this forum - the manufacturers are on their own trajectory which is quite immune to suggestions from us. For example, most DPs (with your own being one of the few exceptions) have an unnaturally short decay time and obvious looping in the decay. This is a major shortcoming which could be addressed with minimal expense and effort. It's not even new technology - just add some more memory so that the decay is not accelerated and so looping isn't necessary. DPs are woefully stingy with memory. It doesn't cost that much to double or even triple the memory so that we can have full length (unlooped) samples.

The decay issue is my biggest single gripe with DPs. It's such a simple fix. No R & D needed, a few extra bucks per unit. If they can't even manage this simple fix which has been discussed so many times, then they aren't listening. It's things like this that result in less than courteous language about them. They aren't listening, so there's no real need for the courtesy. It would be nice if they would pay us the courtesy of listening and implementing these simple improvements.


Well put. I think TonyB is totally correct in saying that were we to expect a software piano level of sophistication (like Ivory or Galaxy with dozens of layers and multiple full length samples) in an embedded format, there would be extra tradeoff such as time to initialize, and significant processor/memory requirements. (Although that being said, considering cost of >1 Ghz ARM processors are going at just dollars a chip, I don't think it's a valid excuse much longer)

But even taking that into account, delay from R&D to release, the rate of improvement is not remotely proportional to commodity technology improvement.

The biggest joke is how Yamaha actually back tracked on 88 key sampling they already had to going back to stretched sample sets until the very recent CLP release. There is absolutely no technological/engineering/developmental reason for that. It's just pure calculated planned obsolescence.


Yamaha C6F
Kawai CA95
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376450
01/21/15 08:56 PM
01/21/15 08:56 PM
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My view comes from being on a lot of engineering teams and having to grapple with the real cost of "for just a few dollars more". If Yamaha backtracked on their technology (I don't know that they did or did not...but "IF"...), my first thought would be that they were not seeing enough of a return on their products to warrant the expense per unit to do what they had done on whatever that product was that had the 88 key sampling. I see both sides - the consumer who is frustrated by not getting what s/he feels the current technology should provide at various price points, and the manufacturer who must balance cost per unit with what the projected returns will be. I wish I could look at it from just one side, because that would make the whole thing that much easier. However, it just isn't that simple.

I really think that the number of people really upset about the issues being discussed here is very small and that the choices/tradeoffs that manufacturers of DPs have made are really intended for a much larger market segment than what is represented by the "voices of dissent" here. As an example, regardless of the negative things said around here about my V-Grand, I absolutely love it and I suspect that many people who purchased, say, a Kawai CA-95 or Roland LX-15 or whatever, feel the same way. We are just people who are having a lot of fun playing our keyboards at all price points.

This does not mean that what people here are saying is wrong, but under the circumstances that I see, I am not surprised that manufacturers are not giving those relatively few here what they are clamoring for. I suspect that both Jay and James read at least some of what is said here and bring back to their respective companies aspects of the discussion that they feel may fit their companies' product road maps. Remember too that the economy has been down for some time now and the so-called "recovery" isn't quite what politicians claim on closer examination. That translates to not particularly optimistic sales projections for a given product development effort.

I am really grateful that both Jay and James are here. I read posts from James as he takes seriously every problem that any Kawai owner posts here and always comes back with either a solution or a plan toward a solution. Jay provided 20 patches for my V-Grand that I use all the time now. I have not seen a lot of posts from Roland owners having issues that Jay needed to resolve, but I would bet he would be all over it as James is. I think that manufacturers are going to continue to make the decisions necessary to keep them in the marketplace. Unfortunately, they won't be able to please everybody, but if they can please most, then they will last another day. Personally, I hope these manufacturers manage to stay in business for a long time, and I don't envy the design choices they have to make to do so. These are not easy choices and a misstep can cost a company some serious market share. I have felt that way about products I have helped developed, and believe that most engineers feel that way. But is is profit that keeps a company alive and the jobs that it provides.

Tony


Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: TonyB] #2376463
01/21/15 09:30 PM
01/21/15 09:30 PM
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Don't get me wrong, like you, I am happy with my CA95 and aside from some compromises, I love playing on it. And I am very grateful for the input from Kawai James and Jay amongst others.

My disappointment is less about my personal use per se, but just the frustration of seeing how much better it could be. I love the sound of an acoustic but the simplicity and convenience of a digital. I guess i just want to have it all!



Yamaha C6F
Kawai CA95
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: chickenlump] #2376472
01/21/15 09:49 PM
01/21/15 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by chickenlump
Don't get me wrong, like you, I am happy with my CA95 and aside from some compromises, I love playing on it. And I am very grateful for the input from Kawai James and Jay amongst others.

My disappointment is less about my personal use per se, but just the frustration of seeing how much better it could be. I love the sound of an acoustic but the simplicity and convenience of a digital. I guess i just want to have it all!



That is understandable, but don't focus on the "I want more" aspect of your CA-95. You have a very nice DP there! It is all too easy to get stuck in the rut of never being satisfied. Every step forward in the technology also seems that much farther away from whatever one perceives as "perfection" (i.e. this is great, but if only...).

Tony


Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2376486
01/21/15 10:26 PM
01/21/15 10:26 PM
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I'm sure dp manufacturers pay little or no attention to this forum. And why would they?

On one hand we have thousands of musicians in studios and venues from bars to stadiums happily generating music from digital pianos, keyboards and synths for millions of fans.

On the other we have a handful of piano purists continually complaining that 'if it doesn't have strings its not a piano'. Then explaining that the unmusical, mechanical sounds made by the acoustic instrument are what makes it 'special'.

I'm betting the 35 year old marketing managers read the musical equipment equivalent of 'get off my lawn.'




Casio PX 850
Alfred's Book 1
Sony 7506 phones
Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: TonyB] #2376494
01/21/15 11:21 PM
01/21/15 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
We are just people who are having a lot of fun playing our keyboards at all price points.

Says the man who owns a $16,900 V-Grand. It's easy to play a freakishly steroidal example of a modeled DP and lecture everyone else that we should just be happy already with our crummy looped AvantGrands or whatever. The DP market has something for everyone and we're getting too uppity and not being thankful enough for the three quarter empty glasses we're being dealt for no particularly good reason that I can see.

Re: Digitals that rival grands? [Re: jimb100] #2376496
01/21/15 11:31 PM
01/21/15 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jimb100
On one hand we have thousands of musicians in studios and venues from bars to stadiums happily generating music from digital pianos, keyboards and synths for millions of fans.

I doubt many, if any, DPs are used on serious AP recordings. Mostly Ivory and the like (software) I would guess. DPs make sense from the standpoints of cost, portability, and silent practice, but beyond that most come nowhere near a real AP. Ask just about anyone who plays and owns both (and isn't paid off in one way or another by the manufacturers) which they prefer.

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