Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Grotrian, Estonia or Steinway A3? Aaaagh!

So my husband has agreed to a "new" grand piano to replace our Baldwin L that we are putting out to pasture...er Craigslist. Our budget is around $35,000 and we have the following 3 to choose from:

1. Newly rebuilt 1926 Steinway A3 at the top end of our budget
2. Estonia 190 (not sure of year, but told it is showroom condition) for $28,750
3. A 1985 single owner, all original Grotrian 189 for $32,000 (but price may be negotiable because the piano has been listed for a few months and I was the first to inquire)

Any thoughts? I will have a tech check out any piano that I am considering, but I have been unable to lay hands on similar pianos where I live because all 3 are seldom seen in my neck of the woods.

I know that I would have the easiest time selling the A3 if, heaven forbid, we have to move or downsize, because my town is a Steinway town, but I want to buy a piano for the quality and sound, not for possible future resale.

All three pianos seem fabulous to me, but I am pretty uneducated about Grotrian and Estonia, aside from what I have seen on these boards.

Help (or to quote my 2 year old who will hopefully be learning on this future piano, 'Holp!')!

Thanks in advance!

Not enough info.
Steinway -- who did the rebuild?
Estonia -- year.
Grotrian-- need to know what the tech says.
Where are you located? We may be able to help with tech recommendations.

Thank you for your response, Cathy. All I know at this time is that the Steinway is in Acacia, CA. I am supposed to get more information about the Estonia in the next few days. I am working with a gentleman who acts as a broker between buyers and sellers, and he will be going out to California in the next few days to scout new pianos for his other clients and lay hands on the Steinway and Estonia. I'm actually supposed to call him a little later on this evening, so I'll see if I can get this information tonight.

I found the Grotrian myself, and I spoke directly to the tech who has been servicing the piano for the past 10 years. He says that it is in mint condition and though he doesn't know how much the owner plays it, it is kept in a humidity controlled room and appears new. When I asked him how it compared with the umpteen Steinways and the handful of Bechsteins that he services he said that this was up there as one of the nicest instruments he has worked on.

Read your pm.

Cathy,
I just got off the phone with the broker and he says that George Kashikian (spelling?) is the gentleman who is currently rebuilding the A3. Apparently the sound board is original and I am not sure what all has been replaced.

The Estonia is a 2009. I'm starting to think that the price might be a bit high because I spoke to the local Estonia dealer and his price for a new 190 was $32,000 last year.

I'm sure he got upset. He doesn't make any money if you buy the Grotrian. Remember that he only gets money if you buy a piano from him, so his opinions about "other" pianos won't be unbiased, neither will his opinion about pianos he presents to you.

I can not suggest paying $35k for a 90 year old soundboard. Piano shopping can be fun and very educational.

You know, I asked the broker about the sound board & he told me it was "seasoned" and would thus have a richer tone. Plus, I was told (by someone else) that wood ages differently out in California compared to the Midwest and South because of low humidity. Live and learn.

The Grotrian is looking better and better...

Out here on the West coast soundboards can last 100 years and be excellent. I know that may seem hard for those who reside in other climes-but it does happen. When this old they do need new bridge caps and pin-blocks along with the strings to return the belly to like new performance.

I just tuned a 90YO Steinway M that I rebuilt a few months ago with original soundboard that has absolutely no cracks or ridges in it and shows 4mm of crown. When you look inside the piano it looks like new, (refinished plate and board, and new hardware), even the surface color on this one stayed uniform. The piano has lived it's entire life on the west coast.

What do you think is the advantage of dealing with a broker? Have you tried contacting piano rebuilders who have great reputations to see if they know of any great grands that one of their clients wants to sell? Sometime they have customers who are downsizing due to retirement or are "aging out" of this life.

Nice problem to have.

I'd forget about the broker. What does a middleman bring to the equation? If you're willing to look far and wide, and it sounds like you are, then I'd suggest contacting dealers who specialize in the kind of instruments that you're looking for, and/or have reputations for rebuilding premium and classic pianos. Ed McMorrow (Seattle), who posted above fits the bill, as does Cunningham Piano (Philly) whose Rich Galissini posts here regularly, and others. Personally, I'd rather deal directly with the people who do the rebuilding and who are gonna stand behind the work than a 3rd party broker who's going to take a slice of the pie (ie drive the price up) but leave you to deal with someone else if problems arise anyway. Go straight to the source. They're the folks you probably ought to build a long-term relationship with.

Oft repeated advice is to play as many pianos as you can and choose the one you like best. Here's one story.

I've played an extremely nice Steinway from almost that exact year. The other two pianos are very nice, too.

In fact, whatever choice you make of those three, as long as the piano is in good condition, you will end up with a good piano.

If you are going to use a middle man (broker) I hope you have a clear reason for doing so, and understand what you're paying for (in his services). I'm not advising against it - we don't even know the details of your process - but hoping you've thought it through.

About the pianos: any of those could be fine pianos. Yes, a soundboard in CA can last 100+ years and perform just like new. As Ed already said, it would need bridge caps, etc. (at least I've never seen a piano that old that didn't need this work). On the other hand, the soundboard might not be any good... that's why a trusted technician's evaluation is so important.

It seems to me the price on the Estonia is high, but I haven't seen that many for sale so I could be wrong. Another thing to consider about the Estonia: although highly regarded by many members on this forum, it is not considered in the same class as the other instruments you are considering. Check out the Piano Buyer link at the left. Although they are very complementary about Estonia, they do not rate it as highly as Grotrian.

Really you'll need to answer which touch and tone you like better.

I've decided against both of the pianos recommended by the broker. My husband and I are not comfortable bringing a piano with a 90 year old soundboard to our very humid city, and after the broker's recommended shipper's costs (around $2000), the piano price is pushed to almost 38K. If something goes wrong with the sound board after our first summer (even with air conditioning and a Dampp Chaser), I'm out even more money. The Estonia price he is quoting me on a 6 year old 190 is only a few thousand dollars less than what I could purchase new from a dealer here in town, so that rules the Estonia out.

I'm trying to find a Chicagoland tech who is familiar with Grotrians to evaluate the 189 before I move forward, so we'll see how that goes. After everyone's much appreciated input on the matter, it looks like the Grotrian (pending any issues) may the the way to go.

That sounds like a really good price for a new Estonia 190 (based on pianobuyer).

Yes, although NYC may be more expensive than most places to buy a piano, 30K is nowhere near the price for a new 190 in NYC. If you like Estonia and can really get a new one for only a few thousand more than the 28K, than maybe you should get a new Estonia 190.

It sounds like you haven't tried out any of the pianos? Is this the case? Buying any piano without trying it out first, but especially a used one, is usually considered a big mistake. How would you even know if you liked the touch and tone? Even if the tech says the Grotrian is in excellent shape, it's possible you could greatly dislike the tone(despite the fact that Grotrian is very highly rated, at least today's models).

Unless you love the Grotrian, I think you should look at many more pianos nearby that you can actually try out since at this point you are only really considering one piano.

Finally, to determine if the 32K is a good price for the Grotrian we need to know if it their plain ebonized model or if it is a more ornate case or something other than ebonized.

Another perspective.....

A price in the low to mid-$30's for a NEW Estonia (even in the high $20's for a 5 year old instrument) seems more than fair.

Grotian, New York Steinway and Estonia are all considered "performance grade" instruments - thus they are basically in the same "class." While the Piano Buyer ranks the Grotian and Steinway a tad higher than Estonia - they are essentially comparing NEW instruments. Thus you'd need to factor in the age (29 years for the Grotian and 91 years for the Steinway) when considering quality. In other words, you need to compare "apples and apples."

I agree with PL above that you should personally try out a number of different pianos. However, a NEW Estonia 190 - in the low to mid-$30's with a warranty to the original purchaser would look pretty darn good to me.

I disagree. By your logic, the Schimmel International is the same class as a Steingraeber and Bosendorfer. I think most people would agree they are not.

Of course it's pointless to fixate too much on a chart and ratings, but there is a small group of pianos that are the best of the best. I think Larry Fine nails that group perfectly with the highest box in his chart.

IMHO (and there are plenty of example pianos to support the opinion) age alone doesn't reduce a pianos quality. Condition does. Condition usually declines with age, but people can (and do) maintain and rebuild pianos to a level as high or higher than when they were new.

To the OP: I look forward to hearing more about the Grotrian. One of my friends has what I think is the same model. Her piano is older than the one you are considering, but is a very fine instrument.