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In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939593
02/25/06 05:40 AM
02/25/06 05:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 105
Israel
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Tal Offline OP
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Israel
So much stuff to learn so little time...
In what order would you recommend on learning them?

Like should I learn a scale and then all different ways to playing it? (like with intervals of a third, octave, decima)
Or learn every scale with an interval of an octave first, and then learn those scales with different intervals?

And where do I squeeze in the chords? With every scale should I learn the main chords of it? Or learn chords after I finish scales or something else? And when the inversions?

And what about Arpeggios? Where to put them in the order of things to learn?

I would really appreciate an answer to these questions, or perhaps an average program which lists the order of when to learn all this.

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Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939594
02/25/06 01:50 PM
02/25/06 01:50 PM
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Gyro Offline
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If you're pressed for time and want to do
just the basics, then you should have some
familiarity with playing scales, both as
a physical exercise, and from a theoretical
standpoint. The jury is out on just how
much scale practice is necessary. Some people
love scales and practice the whole works
every day: major, 3 forms of minor, up and
down, outwards and back, etc. For a minimum
regimen, maybe: C maj. and D maj. for
two octaves up and down with both hands.

You should have some familiarity with triads,
which are based on the scales. Arpeggios
are nothing more than triads played in a
melodic manner. For a minimum regimen:
C maj. and D maj. arpeggios for 3 octaves
up and down with both hands--root position
and the two inversions. For example, C maj.
root position up: C E G, C E G, C E G, C;
down: G E C, G E C, G E C. First inversion
up: E G C, E G C, E G C, E; down: C G E,
C G E, C G E. And so forth.

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939595
02/25/06 02:18 PM
02/25/06 02:18 PM
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sarabande Offline
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I would play the basic chords at least with their inversions alongside playing scales. That way you can visualize how the chords tie into the scales as far as what scale degree each chord is based on and also learn the key signatures since when playing chords, you have to remember which sharps and flats you need in keeping with the scale you are in.

I think if you sat down and wrote out all the things you wanted to practice and be sure to cover and really ask yourself how you want to divide up your time and write down to do small increments each day, you'd be well on your way to practicing and playing what you want. You seem to have a lot of ambition so I'm sure you'll go far in your learning. You might consider asking in the Pianist Corner forum what everyone there does daily/weekly in the way of practicing scales, etc. and how they lay their daily practice out and try to imulate some of their ways of practicing.

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939596
02/25/06 05:07 PM
02/25/06 05:07 PM
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I'm looking for a comprehesive book that deals with scales, chords and arpeggios. Theory and practice techniques. Any recommendations?

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939597
02/26/06 12:05 AM
02/26/06 12:05 AM
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I never play any of these things. I just play pieces. Boring the socks off of a student will just drive the student to quit.

If you MUST play these exercises, very little is fine. Like, out of every hour of practice, perhaps ten minutes of this foolishness.


the Glyptodont
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939598
02/27/06 12:57 PM
02/27/06 12:57 PM
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Israel
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Tal Offline OP
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Thanks for the help!
I really want to learn all this, in order to be more fluent with music overall.
However, I'm afraid that if I'll make it "just a technical excercise" it may turn into something tedious without meaning, a pure motor skill. If I'll just practice it like that it won't help me in anything.
But in order for me to learn it all and understand how it all fits, there should be a certain order in which to learn all these things.

The excercise with the chords that sarabande offered for example is good, I have to know which notes get sharps and flats in a certain chord, and with that, I learn the chord and I reinforce the key signature better in my head.

I know I have to play scales up and down and arrpegios, but, in what order should I proceed? how much each week? etc.

I know it's different for each individual, but I don't want to go wasting too much time on a certain scale, or progress too quickly and not let the information sit good enough in my head.

I bought a theory book today, one that has a big focus on improvisation. I don't know about the improvisation, should I learn it a bit? I do think it will help with my fluency in the piano though.
And I did plan on learning improvisation in the future, it's just that I'm learning piano for 2 months now and I wonder if I can start learning that already...

I wonder if other people were in the same situation as me, I don't have much free time, I'm only playing the piano for 2 months, yet I want to sight-read, I want to improvise, I want to play certain pieces really good, I want to play by ear, I want to know theory inside and out, I WANT TO BE FLUENT ON THE PIANO.

Piano can feel overwhelming sometimes, and especially when I think of why didn't I start earlier...
Well I guess 18 is not too old...

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939599
02/28/06 10:44 AM
02/28/06 10:44 AM
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Chris H. Offline
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Tal, I would suggest finding a good teacher who will be able to help you plan a schedule based on your needs/ability. With technical exercises it is very much a case of quality over quantity. Yes of course things need many repetitions before they will feel comfortable but you must make sure that what you are doing is correct. If you play scales with poor technique and unsatisfactory fingerings then you will do a lot of damage to your playing. This is where a teacher can help. They can monitor your progress, make sure what you do is correct and appropriate and give you encouragement and motivation.

Glyptodont - It is foolish to call technical exercises foolishness. Tal has already recognised the importance of such things and so is not being forced to do something they find boring. Most things you will ever play contain scale/arpeggio passages and are based on chords and keys. Knowing about and practicing these things can only improve your playing.


Pianist and piano teacher.
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939600
02/28/06 01:27 PM
02/28/06 01:27 PM
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As an adult beginner, I won't presume to answer the question but maybe my current practice schedule might help.
I'm currently trying to learn blues and rock piano from a few book/CD combos. I can read at about the grade 2/3 level and I have a bit of theory: I understand major and minor scales and elementary major chord construction. I found, though that sheer technical limitaions slowed my progress through the blues book I'm using as my main resource: Most recently it was dotted eight note octave bass lines, though I'm now "polishing" them rather than trying to get them to happen. Still, my trills are nowhere near fast and smooth enough with the required fingers and attempts to play the rock and roll LH parts at tempo, cause my hand to freeze into a rigid claw. The upshot is, I can't go to the next pieces in my books without cheating and I'd be bored doing nothing but working these same parts over and over with a metronome.

I also want to play by ear, so I've ordered one of many courses sold online which teaches it. The DVD will be a while coming, but they've unlocked a harmonisation chart on thier site which tells a brand new beginner which chords to play with which tones of a major scale. (If you want a detailed summary of this info, plus lots more, search Piano World forums for a post on "voicing chords" by Rodney).
I chose this particular course for many reasons, in that it seemed the most flexible as far as learning to play by ear, from lead sheets or for just learning how to "comp" in a band-type setting. Also, the samples available at other sites, while technically impressive, seemed to focus on a style of ornamentation and harmonization that I personally dislike.

Anyway, while waiting for my course to arrive, i'll choose a major scale (At the moment I'm sticking with only c,g, f and Bb). I play two or three octaves with each hand separate a few time, then arpeggios and the chords; major, dominant7th, 6th, 7th and 9th.

I play a few of the bass lines, trills and pieces I learned in C in the new key and try to get them up to the C tempo and faster. I've work out a simple, by-ear version of "Amazing Grace" in C and I'm working on "Midnight Special" in C. I try to transpose the former on the fly in my chosen keys and will do the same with MS. I'll continue through all the major keys over the next months.

Scales take maybe 2 min of a session and are just to get comfortable moving around. I won't be learning them HT as i think that is a real waste of time.

Hope this gives you some ideas.


Without music life would be a mistake
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939601
03/05/06 02:54 PM
03/05/06 02:54 PM
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Margareth Offline
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Here's an order in which ARASM expects you to know them (you can click on different grades on the left):

http://www.abrsm.org/?page=exams/gradedMusicExams/practical/piano/piano0304_G1.html

To make playing scales more fun I play them like this, too:

4 octaves up and down hands together, 4 octaves up, two octaves down; two octaves apart, back togehter; two octaves up, two octaves down, again two octaves apart and back together and then two octaves down.
I hope its understandable, if it's not let me know, I'll try again wink

Maka


Attitude is everything.
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939602
03/11/06 05:24 AM
03/11/06 05:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 105
Israel
T
Tal Offline OP
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Israel
Yes Margareth I understood what you meant, I do it sometimes.

Chris H. - I already have a teacher at the Yamaha school. Although I think her approach is a bit classical, she's a very good pianist, and have amazing sight-reading skills (which gives me inspiration), I don't know how she is compared to other teachers, because I didn't have other teachers before.

Pastafarian - You said after you play scales you play chords, and then you mentioned the order of the chords.
This is different than what my theory/jazz book advised. It said to do the scale and then to do the chords of each note in the scale, like: Do the C major scale, and then play chords C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C (with the key signature of the scale). And then the chords you get are: Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished, and finally Major again.
Now that you mentioned your way of practicing, it sounds good too. I didn't start on this practice I told you yet, I only read about it yesterday and I still need to be able to play most of the scales, if not, all of them.
Anyway, what do you think of the practice method that the book suggested? Is it commonly-used too?
Also when playing Arpeggios (I can only play C-major scale arpeggio) I play only the chords of C,E,G does that mean I play the arpeggio of the C-chord? If so, then I got a long way to go huh? Learning this arpeggio HT up and down, took me a lot of time...
I wonder if learning it HT is effective...
Eventually, I need to play all chords in all their forms in this arpeggio manner?

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939603
03/15/06 01:01 AM
03/15/06 01:01 AM
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Posts: 169
California
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kwoksmusic Offline
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Tal - you can easily pick up a book from a music store that will give you all the scales and arpeggios, then you wouldn't have to guess. Spend a few minutes a day. Does your teacher give you any guidance on these exercises? You should also ask her....

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939604
03/15/06 01:05 AM
03/15/06 01:05 AM
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kwoksmusic Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Glyptodont:
I never play any of these things. I just play pieces. Boring the socks off of a student will just drive the student to quit.

If you MUST play these exercises, very little is fine. Like, out of every hour of practice, perhaps ten minutes of this foolishness.
I'm curious as why you think they are pointless. I have been taught by teachers who have been at both ends of the spectrum, and my practise habits have swung from one to other. Now I'm trying to rethink these things through so I'd like to understand why you feel this way.

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939605
03/15/06 01:10 AM
03/15/06 01:10 AM
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Posts: 373
Shreveport, LA
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John Delmore Offline
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Tal, I have to agree with some who have written, and some of what they have written. But not all of either.

First, play music that makes you happy. Without that, you'll have no fun. And that's what music's about.

But, if it really grabs you, you'll want more. You really should find a good teacher. But, if you haven't yet, and want to start with scales, the way to do it is to start at the beginning. C major. Over, and over. One hand. Two hands. Every variation you can think of.

Then think about the chords that fit into the C major scale. All of them. In every inversion you can come up with.

And, of course, while you're doing this, you'll be thinking about the scales with one sharp, or one flat. Practice them. Just like with C major.

And, did I mention, play music that make you happy?


John Delmore
PTG Associate Member
"You don't have a Soul. You ARE a soul. You have a body."...C.S. Lewis
Bienvenue!: http://louisianaskyline.net/forums/index.php?
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939606
03/15/06 04:04 AM
03/15/06 04:04 AM
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I recently read that scales on black keys are easier to learn first although conceptually (in terms of theory) more difficult. And it was explained that it's because of the more natural position of black keys for our fingers and that all white keys are the hardest. Then I thought it over, and realized that it was true for me - that whenever I played the arpeggios with more sharps and flats, I often felt as if I had better control, but I always thought it was my imagination, till I read this book. Anyway, just food for thought - you can go try out scales with mostly black (e.g. D flat major of F# major) or white keys first and see what's more natural for you. According to that teacher, start with scales with most black keys, then progress towards those with more white keys..... welcome to the complex world of piano playing with lots of opinions about how to approach your learning!!

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939607
03/18/06 11:58 AM
03/18/06 11:58 AM
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Israel
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Tal Offline OP
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
I guess there's no one-definite way or order to learn this.
The point is that currently I'm practicing my reading aspect (sightreading if you wish to call it), I open the book of easy pieces, play the piece in the right hand and then in the left hand and then very slowly and with alot of stops unfottunately I go about playing it with both hands.
I currently have no motivation to practice scales.
However, perhaps I can incorporate it, with every piece that I start to read, I'll see the key signature and play it's respective scale up and down 4 octaves.
That way I do both.

Now how to incorporate chords or arrpegios...

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939608
03/22/06 07:06 PM
03/22/06 07:06 PM
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There is a lot of misunderstanding concerning the practice of scales. So let us clear some of them.

1. Scales (and arpeggios) are absolutely essential. Anyone claiming not to know scales does not know anything about European music of the past 500 years.

2. Scales are completely useless as technical exercises.

3. How come? These two statements are certainly contradictory.

4. Not at all. Scales are important for two reasons only:

a) the most important: scales will get you familiarised with the concept of key, without which music understanding is impossible. And if you do not understand what you are playing you are a typist, not a pianist. This means that your scale practice must be geared not towards finger dexterity, but towards knowing the scales back to front. You should be able to identify the predominant scale in any two bars of music by simply looking at the notes. You should be able to see the modulations as you play.

b) Scales teach you a way of fingering. But if you follow the orthodox fingering (e.g. Hanon’s) you will not be deriving much benefit from this.

5. Scales rarely use the fourth finger and almost never the fifth, which happen to be the weakest fingerings. So how can scales be good as exercises? Only if you want to exercise fingers 1- 2 –3 which do not need the exercise anyway.

6. 99% of the pieces that involve scale runs will be restricted to one hand at a time. It is rare to find a real piece where you have to play a scale both hands together. So why practise scales with hands together, unless you are tackling a piece that demands it? Moreover, in most pieces the scale fingering used in the piece is not the orthodox fingering. This is true even at a very basic level. Just have a look at Mozart’s K 545, first movement. If you have really practised your scales ingraining the orthodox fingering, tackling that sonata will be a nightmare, since you will have to spend extra time relearning the appropriate fingering. Which again goes to show that there is no “general” technique that you can learn in isolation. If you sent your children to school and instead of being taught English they were taught “general” sounds and syllables that may come in hand in case the child wants in the future to learn any possible language, what would be your response? Yet everyone seems to accept this absurd idea when it comes to development of technique.

7. Therefore, if you want to practise scales, have as your aim to learn the scales (meaning: the notes of the scales; identifying immediately the tonic, the dominant, the subdominant and the submediant which are the most important degrees). You want to be able to immediately bring to mind these things the moment someone say the name of a scale. Someone says Ab major. Can you tell immediately all the notes of the scale [Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab]? The key signature (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)? The tonic? [Ab]. The dominant? [Eb] The subdominant? [Db] The submediant? [F] The leading note? [G] Can you tell immediately that the most likely modulations in a piece written in Ab major will be to Eb major, Db major, F minor, C minor and Bb minor? Can you do that for all the 24 major and minor scales without a moment’s hesitation? Because this is the stuff that really matters. I have seen people ripple scales trough the keyboard and being unable even to tell me the name of the scale. This is the equivalent of being the fastest typist in the universe, but who cannot read, so everything s/he types is gibberish (but fast, very fast).

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939609
03/23/06 12:13 AM
03/23/06 12:13 AM
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pastafarian Offline
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Tal, sorry I didn't respond earlier, I sort of forgot I'd posted on this thread.

I'm no expert on scales or technique, but I have certain definite goals and I'm making a strong effort to achieve them as efficiently as possible. What Oleo has posted is very much in line with my thinking.

In a few years I'd like to be able to answer the questions he/she poses for at least half a dozen major keys and a few minor keys and to be able to play the chords (changes) that constitute those answers without hesitation.

I've cut my scales, chords and arpeggios back to just two keys for the time being, for the very practical reasons that I want the arps and chords to be fluent in at least one key (including harmonizing chords for each scale degree) and C major is the closest I've got to fluent.

Aslo, the second installment of my play-by-ear course is all in Db-major, so I'll have to know it as well. Besides, it's got the nasty 231234... fingering, and I'm finding that digging out dominant 7th, dominant and subdominant chords a challenge, but it's not too bad and I think the process of transposing my blues exercises on the fly is doing me a lot of good.

I've incorporated one Hanon exercise that focuses on the 4th and 5th fingers.

After I'm more at home in Db, I'll probably just continue learning my major scales chromatically. I have started one or two tries of hands together for c-major per session, but it's excruciatingly slow and I'm curious to see if it will eventually start to happen even if I don't focus on it much.

I can't give you any advice on what order to learn chords. I'm not very systematic about them at this point. Sometimes I'll just look at my hands while I'm playing a "by-ear" version of something in C and see if I can throw in the correct inversion a chord to replace one of my melody triads, just to see if I can find the notes.

I'm finding that I have more theory than I can possible hope to use in my playing at this point (and it's a depressingly small amount at that) :p . I still can't harmonize and add a simple bass line to a single-note melody much beyond "Mary had a little lamb" with the I,ii,IV,V, and V7 triads on the fly in C yet, so 9ths, 11ths, b5b7 and +5+9s, etc. are pointless for me to worry about too much at this point.
I'm still learning to crawl in C.


Without music life would be a mistake
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) #939610
03/28/06 03:41 AM
03/28/06 03:41 AM
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Israel
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Tal Offline OP
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Thanks for that view on scales.
I think you are absolutely right.
Now it all makes sense to me.

I should KNOW scales, which is more than simply playing them (infact it doesn't neccessarily involves playing them).

Re: In what order to learn? (Scales,Arpegios,Chords) [Re: John Delmore] #2373719
01/15/15 05:03 AM
01/15/15 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by John Delmore
Then think about the chords that fit into the C major scale. All of them. In every inversion you can come up with.


1. What chords (all of them) fit in a key? Isn't it just the C Major chord and it's inversions?

2. How do they fit in a key?
Should I play the chord with left hand as I hit it's root note in the right hand - 1st inversion of C Major in left, when playing E in the right hand?


Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

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