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#2373696 - 01/15/15 02:55 AM Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18  
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Weiyan Offline
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https://app.box.com/s/2iogzqgav2o6p01e6w7s1y74aow8a5o2

In Bar 18 9th note, the B flat not follow the pattern as in other bars. Downloaded a sheet music, its C, same as first note.

Should it played B flat or C?

Thank you.

Last edited by Weiyan; 01/15/15 02:57 AM.

Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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#2373731 - 01/15/15 06:56 AM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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zrtf90 Offline
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It should be Bb. It's stepping down from C through Bb to Ab.



Richard
#2373794 - 01/15/15 11:13 AM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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Weiyan Offline
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Thank you.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
#2373953 - 01/15/15 06:22 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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Johan B Offline
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
https://app.box.com/s/2iogzqgav2o6p01e6w7s1y74aow8a5o2

In Bar 18 9th note, the B flat not follow the pattern as in other bars. Downloaded a sheet music, its C, same as first note.

Should it played B flat or C?

Thank you.


Don't know what your question is. I see Bar 18 9 th note = Es (e flat) right hand + C left hand.

Look at the edition
Bach-Gesellschaft Ausgabe Band 14 page 6-9 / Breitkopf-Hartel
BWV 847

Regards,
Johan B



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#2373966 - 01/15/15 06:55 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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keystring Offline
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I think maybe Weiyan is comparing the two halves of the same measure. The RH repeats itself precisely in both halves, but the LH is different since one half has C (as he mentions) and the other has Bb. I only had time to glance at the music - had a quick impression of maybe C chord becoming C7 ...... and yup, the next chord seems to be an F minor(C7 = V7 of Fm).

You also have a kind of "bass line" with the lowest note: C - Bb - Ab - sometimes those kinds of patterns give us interesting things to do with the music, for example emphasizing certain notes.

It's a good thing to be thinking about what you are playing rather than just typing out the notes that are on the page. smile

Last edited by keystring; 01/15/15 06:58 PM.
#2374179 - 01/16/15 08:09 AM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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zrtf90 Offline
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Johan, the Bach-Gesellschaft edition does not agree with the manuscript.

The extra tension of the Bb is a significant divergence from the pattern and ramps up the crescendo begun in M15 and presages the climax of the piece, a long dominant pedal that begins in M21 and continues into the Presto.

If you try to accommodate the Bb with an extra measure you might see why Bach chose this route.

ETA: It's actually the first C in M18 that breaks the pattern not the Bb.

Last edited by zrtf90; 01/16/15 08:24 AM.

Richard
#2374446 - 01/16/15 06:55 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: zrtf90]  
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Johan B Offline
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The Netherlands, Grootegast-Gr...
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Johan, the Bach-Gesellschaft edition does not agree with the manuscript.

The extra tension of the Bb is a significant divergence from the pattern and ramps up the crescendo begun in M15 and presages the climax of the piece, a long dominant pedal that begins in M21 and continues into the Presto.

If you try to accommodate the Bb with an extra measure you might see why Bach chose this route.

ETA: It's actually the first C in M18 that breaks the pattern not the Bb.


Hi,

Thanks.....I thought this edition was reliable........where can I find the manusscript? Imslp? Other sites? Please, I like to find it out....

Best regards,
Johan B


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#2374621 - 01/17/15 09:25 AM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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zrtf90 Offline
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Kroll is reliable, Johan, he's just not definitive.

There isn't a definitive Bach but with Kroll, Bischoff and the manuscripts together we can be sure that what we're playing is what was written, at one time or another, by Bach even though it may not be his last word on it.

I don't have access to the manuscripts and rely only on what editors tell me. Busoni, Tovey, et al have used the Bb, Czerny has used both but his later one uses Bb, and I understand it to be the more scholarly reading.

In my analysis the bass steps down from M15 to the dominant pedal at M21, the climax of the piece, and it is in M18 the two expected Bbs are a C and a Bb. For me this marks the start of the crescendo.




Richard
#2374639 - 01/17/15 10:49 AM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: zrtf90]  
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Johan, the Bach-Gesellschaft edition does not agree with the manuscript.

The extra tension of the Bb is a significant divergence from the pattern and ramps up the crescendo begun in M15 and presages the climax of the piece, a long dominant pedal that begins in M21 and continues into the Presto.

If you try to accommodate the Bb with an extra measure you might see why Bach chose this route.

ETA: It's actually the first C in M18 that breaks the pattern not the Bb.

It seems first C in M18 breaks the pattern. The LH bass note downs chromatically and no bass note change within a measure.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
#2393314 - 03/03/15 02:41 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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David Aubke Offline
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Resurrecting a slightly older thread...

I'm glad I did a site search and am surprised to find someone so recently asked the exact question I was planning on asking.

I've been working from the Bach-Gesellschaft edition and kept hearing that B-flat in recordings I listened to. I don't know much about the way different editions are regarded for accuracy but to me it seemed unlikely that this one single measure would have been written differently from all the rest where beats three and four duplicate one and two.

But there it is on every recording I've heard and now folks who probably know better than I concur so I guess I've got a measure to rework when I get home tonight.

#2393338 - 03/03/15 03:53 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Weiyan]  
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Ataru074 Offline
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I think that shelling out the cash for the NBA published by Barenreiter is a good idea when interested in Bach. Sources aren't always reliable, editions are unreliable too and, especially in the "old days" editors where overzealous to try to correct errors without having to spend week communicating back and forth with the author.
I personally use the Henle ( Schiff ) edition. but I also consult the Wiener urtext and the Barenreiter for the WTC.

For me the WTC and Beethoven sonatas are among the publications that "you never have enough copies".
and to answer to the last...

Originally Posted by David Aubke

it seemed unlikely that this one single measure would have been written differently from all the rest where beats three and four duplicate one and two.


That is actually the difference from the genius of Bach and the mediocrity other composers of the time. Create that magic moment in an otherwise monotonous "exercise". Without it, could have been Czerny.
IMVHO



Private Piano Teacher. MTNA
working on:
Albeniz: Iberia
Beethoven: Op 53
Bartok: Mikrokosmos vol. 5
Debussy: Estampes
Moszkowski: Op 72
#2393364 - 03/03/15 04:46 PM Re: Prelude and Fugue in C min BWV 847 Bar 18 [Re: Ataru074]  
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David Aubke Offline
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Thanks for the advice and information.


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