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What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
#2372564 01/12/15 05:41 AM
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Yeah, y'know -- there's urtext and there's urtext. grin

What's the most urtext?

(No, this isn't a quiz. ha
I don't know the answer, I'm looking for it!)

P.S. I probably should have put it, What's the urtexest edition.
(Not to mention that I should have said concerti, not concertos.....)

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372565 01/12/15 05:53 AM
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Henle? Wienner Urtext?

Now I can hide back to my work, since I have absolutely no idea if both the above houses actually publish the Mozart concerti...

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372567 01/12/15 07:17 AM
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Barenreiter.

(I think that it's OK to say "concertos" nowadays. That doesn't mean I'm totally comfortable with it......)


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Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372645 01/12/15 12:47 PM
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Peters had some good editions, as well as Steingräber, the latter being reprinted by Schirmer. Urtext of the concertos is a tricky business, since only four were published in Mozart's lifetime (K. 413-449), and the manuscripts may only have the piano part sketched out in places.


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Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
BDB #2372680 01/12/15 03:15 PM
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Thanks, Gerard and BDB. I'm learning a couple of things here. I had only occasionally heard of Barenreiter editions and have never seen one, and didn't know that only those few concerti were published in his lifetime.

The main one I'm wondering about is K 595. I'd be interested in what anyone could say about its various editions.

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372708 01/12/15 04:22 PM
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NOT NOT NOT Barenreiter...

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Auntie Lynn #2372749 01/12/15 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
NOT NOT NOT Barenreiter...

Well, there we are. grin

That's why we sometimes need different opinions. smile

Lynn -- can you say a little more? (Like, what don't you like about those editions?)

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372754 01/12/15 06:36 PM
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I hate the way Barenreiter *looks*, but my teacher swears by them, and recommends them for Mozart concertos to all her conservatory students (and to us adults too).

-J

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Gerard12 #2372802 01/12/15 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerard12
(I think that it's OK to say "concertos" nowadays. That doesn't mean I'm totally comfortable with it......)

That must be rough.

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372855 01/13/15 12:40 AM
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The scholarly edition of Mozart in common use is Barenreiter's:

https://www.baerenreiter.com/en/about-baerenreiter/baerenreiter-encyclopedia/new-mozart-edition/

Not sure what Auntie Lynn's objection is based on, but most scholars are using the NMA these days, and I believe they've produced a performing edition as well.


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Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372862 01/13/15 01:02 AM
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I simply do not trust any Urtext as being thoroughly authoritative because I have found odd discrepancies in every edition I have encountered, so with almost every score I include in my repertoire I get two or three different editions to cross reference. And with some parts of the repertoire I will get even more editions because I am curious what perspectives an artist like Schnabel or Cortot has to offer in their very editions. Perhaps it may be a startling original fingering that is useful.

The original manuscript (if it has survived) measured against the first edition, measured against the second edition correcting (maybe) the first edition. It is all detective work that still requires a fair amount of educated guessing about what the composer really wanted. I am currently re-learning the Mozart Sonata in A minor K.310 and I have a reproduction of his score in his handwriting (generously provided by Wiener Urtext Edition) but it is still difficult in various parts to discern the smudges and dashes he scribbled off.

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2372871 01/13/15 01:36 AM
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The difficulty with Concerto editions that the composer expected to perform himself or herself, is that they are notoriously sketchy. Take a look at the Handel organ concerti, for example. They are more like sketches for improvisation with figured bass rather than written out scores. I would expect the same for Mozart.

Also, I expect the composer to give the performer free reign on his interpretation, and cadenza treatments, especially in the 18th century. Therefore, I expect most of the urtext to be more like reconstructions, rather than republication of the manuscripts.


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Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
BDB #2373214 01/13/15 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Peters had some good editions, as well as Steingräber, the latter being reprinted by Schirmer. Urtext of the concertos is a tricky business, since only four were published in Mozart's lifetime (K. 413-449), and the manuscripts may only have the piano part sketched out in places.


Unfortunately, Peters has only a few of the concerti issued as Urtext editions. Barrenreiter has almost all of them, I think.

Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Mark_C #2373276 01/13/15 10:58 PM
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This has been shown before, but I thought its worth another view.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzzosvTN27U


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Re: What's the 'most' urtext edition of Mozart concertos?
Ralph #2373301 01/13/15 11:34 PM
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Thanks for the additional replies!
And about this:

Originally Posted by Ralph
This has been shown before, but I thought its worth another view.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzzosvTN27U

Thank you! I hadn't seen this video of Christopher Hogwood.

Meanwhile I had bothered my old teacher Malcolm Bilson with the question in an e-mail, and he basically said Barenreiter too. Actually what he said was the Neue Mozart Ausgabe, but, as can be gathered from the link in Kreisler's post, that's basically Barenreiter.

Bilson often performed with Hogwood, who unfortunately passed away recently.


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