Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
85 registered members (bsntn99, cmb13, Chernobieff Piano, anotherscott, Bruce In Philly, Beowulf, Blues beater, 18 invisible), 1,546 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t #2307277
07/26/14 06:57 AM
07/26/14 06:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
C
caters Offline OP
Full Member
caters  Offline OP
Full Member
C

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
I was learning the recorder when I was in 4th grade. There I learned all the white keys of the middle octave and F#.

When it was summer break I found out on my own how to play Bb, Eb, and Ab so now I just have to learn C# and the low and high octaves of the 3 octave range in order to play any piece in any key. Right now I can only play G major-Eb Major in the flat direction and their relative minors in 1 octave which really restricts me.

I am however a very good pianist. I figured that since I learned the piano and soprano recorder which are C tuned instruments that other C tuned instruments would be best to start off with since I am very familiar with C tuning.

For me something like a Bb trumpet or an F tuned french horn would be hard, not because I can't transpose but because I would CONSTANTLY have to transpose and that is hard for a long piece like a sonata or a symphony for someone so familiar with C tuning in G and F clefs.

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307291
07/26/14 08:16 AM
07/26/14 08:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
M
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member
mrenaud  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
Originally Posted by caters
For me something like a Bb trumpet or an F tuned french horn would be hard, not because I can't transpose but because I would CONSTANTLY have to transpose and that is hard for a long piece like a sonata or a symphony for someone so familiar with C tuning in G and F clefs.


That makes no sense at all.

EDIT: Maybe I should clarify why, even though I dont' think it will help: Parts for transposing instruments are transposed already which is why no player of such an instrument has to transpose at sight. Except brass players, who are expected to be able to transpose parts written in different keys (e.g. for natural horns or trumpets) to accommodate whichever instrument they're currently using. This is basic knowledge.


I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307303
07/26/14 08:38 AM
07/26/14 08:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Mrenaud, the recorder would actually be an exception to transposing instruments. I play descant ("soprano"), tenor, and alto recorder. The alto is in F. Most music for the alto recorder, however, is not transposed. I have one set of notation which is transposed - a Haendel sonata for which I have the music for the accompaniment, another score for the basso continuo, and then I have TWO sets of notes for the melody - one written in F major for flute / violin / descant recorder - one written in C major (transposed) for alto recorder. But all my other recorder music for alto recorder requires me to change my fingering so that when I see "C" then I have to use the fingering that would give me G on the descant and tenor. I think it's the only instrument group that has that.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307305
07/26/14 08:49 AM
07/26/14 08:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
We've got several ways of relating to notes in a score.

One - which was my original way - is where you prehear the sound, and you try to reproduce that sound on the instrument. I think that way is going to make it harder with transposing instruments, and it may be the way that caters is thinking.

Another - where you see a note on the page, and that note signifies a location on the piano, or a fingering on an instrument (like my F recorder). So in transposing instruments where the music is written for that music, if you do the fingering that is associated with the note symbol, you will end up with the right pitch. In my case, the transposed music shows me what should be "C" -- but it really is "C fingering" - and as I use that fingering, I produce the pitch which is F. That is why my score for violin / flute / descant is written in F major, while the score for the same music for alto recorder is written in notation that looks like C major.

It's two realities.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307307
07/26/14 08:51 AM
07/26/14 08:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Originally Posted by caters
When it was summer break I found out on my own how to play Bb, Eb, and Ab so now I just have to learn C# and the low and high octaves of the 3 octave range in order to play any piece in any key. Right now I can only play G major-Eb Major in the flat direction and their relative minors in 1 octave which really restricts me.

Caters, did you mean 2 octave range? I am one note short of 2 octaves despite years of playing recorder. I think some very good quality recorders combined with excellent technique might bring you above that.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307336
07/26/14 10:35 AM
07/26/14 10:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
C
caters Offline OP
Full Member
caters  Offline OP
Full Member
C

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
recorders can play 3 octaves not 2.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2307946
07/27/14 09:08 PM
07/27/14 09:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Originally Posted by caters
recorders can play 3 octaves not 2.

A top recorder player with an advanced quality recorder can manage to play somewhat beyond the 2nd octave. But in general, the range does not go that high. Can you yourself reach 3 octaves? I can't, on any of my instruments (descant, alto, tenor) and I've been told that one reason is that I don't have a professional level instrument. I have been playing recorder for decades.
[Linked Image]

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: mrenaud] #2308007
07/28/14 02:16 AM
07/28/14 02:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,318
South Florida
G
Gary D. Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,318
South Florida
Originally Posted by mrenaud
Originally Posted by caters
For me something like a Bb trumpet or an F tuned french horn would be hard, not because I can't transpose but because I would CONSTANTLY have to transpose and that is hard for a long piece like a sonata or a symphony for someone so familiar with C tuning in G and F clefs.


That makes no sense at all.

EDIT: Maybe I should clarify why, even though I dont' think it will help: Parts for transposing instruments are transposed already which is why no player of such an instrument has to transpose at sight. Except brass players, who are expected to be able to transpose parts written in different keys (e.g. for natural horns or trumpets) to accommodate whichever instrument they're currently using. This is basic knowledge.

You may be overlooking the fact that transposing instruments have different pitches. I taught trumpet for many years, so I am very familiar with the fact that Bb trumpet, for instance, is a whole step higher than piano when considering notation. A C scale on trumpet is the same as our Bb scale, and that can cause considerable problems.


Piano Teacher
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2308032
07/28/14 06:13 AM
07/28/14 06:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,043
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
wr  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,043
Why is it that every time I see stuff about transposing instruments, I feel like I've wandered into some impenetrable fog? Which is weird, because I've actually played some of those instruments. But somehow the concept doesn't quite settle correctly in my mind. It's always as if one critical step in understanding it, once and for all, is missing. This has bugged me for nearly fifty years.


Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: Gary D.] #2308170
07/28/14 01:23 PM
07/28/14 01:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
M
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member
mrenaud  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
Originally Posted by Gary D.
You may be overlooking the fact that transposing instruments have different pitches. I taught trumpet for many years, so I am very familiar with the fact that Bb trumpet, for instance, is a whole step higher than piano when considering notation. A C scale on trumpet is the same as our Bb scale, and that can cause considerable problems.


I am aware of that, but where would the problem be? Assuming that the piece is in Bb, the piano part will be in Bb and the trumpet part in C, nobody has to transpose.


I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2308243
07/28/14 04:58 PM
07/28/14 04:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,838
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,838
*sigh* Salt Lake City
I don't understand the question in the original post.

You won't need to transpose unless you are trying to play trumpet while reading a piano score at the same time as someone else plays piano from the same score.

If you purchase sheet music for trumpet and piano the parts will be all ready for you.

If you are trying to play trumpet and piano at the same time from the same score, well, then good luck.

If you want to play another instrument in C, try the flute or violin.

What's the problem? Is there a problem?



I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2371630
01/09/15 01:30 PM
01/09/15 01:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
C
caters Offline OP
Full Member
caters  Offline OP
Full Member
C

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 235
Columbus, ohio, USA
Oh but what if I see a C major piece and am trying to play that on the Bb trumpet or some other transposing instrument. In the case of the Bb trumpet I would need to play it as if it were D major to get C major. If I didn't do that it would be a whole step flat for the whole piece and would sound as if it is in Bb when it is in C(Which might not be what I want) because of me using C fingering and not actually playing C.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2372428
01/11/15 05:00 PM
01/11/15 05:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
L
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
landorrano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
Originally Posted by caters
Oh but what if I see a C major piece and am trying to play that on the Bb trumpet or some other transposing instrument. In the case of the Bb trumpet I would need to play it as if it were D major to get C major.


Hi Caters, you are right and the thought is intimidating but you will see that this quickly becomes second nature.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: keystring] #2372655
01/12/15 12:37 PM
01/12/15 12:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by caters
recorders can play 3 octaves not 2.

A top recorder player with an advanced quality recorder can manage to play somewhat beyond the 2nd octave. But in general, the range does not go that high. Can you yourself reach 3 octaves? I can't, on any of my instruments (descant, alto, tenor) and I've been told that one reason is that I don't have a professional level instrument. I have been playing recorder for decades.
[Linked Image]


Old post, but..........I think he means play into the 3rd octave.

I have the Yamaha 300 series recorders. These are the step up version but not the expensive pro lines.

On the alto or the sopranino I have no problem with the two octaves F to F, plus up to the C above the F which you need for the Telemann. I cannot play a full 3 octaves but I can play into the 3rd octave. I choose not to attempt any notes which require covering the foot, just too hazardous.

My garklein on the other hand won't even play a full two octaves. You get one and a little bit more.

I don't know that I've ever tried playing the tenor above the 2cnd octave, mostly it sits in the case.

One of the recorder sites said that work in the 3rd octave was helpful to being secure in the 2cnd octave, and I have found that to be true.



gotta go practice
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2372676
01/12/15 01:58 PM
01/12/15 01:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
See this fingering chart:
http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/recorder/rec_alt_3.html

This one gives fingerings for the entire 3rd octave. I don't know if that's possible on all recorders. I've not tried above the C in the third octave (alto recorder).


gotta go practice
Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: caters] #2372827
01/12/15 09:27 PM
01/12/15 09:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,838
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,838
*sigh* Salt Lake City
If it is only an issue every 6 months or so, I can't really see getting too worked up about it.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: Soprano Recorder and difficulties of using instruments not t [Re: TimR] #2372846
01/12/15 10:59 PM
01/12/15 10:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by TimR
See this fingering chart:
http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/recorder/rec_alt_3.html

This one gives fingerings for the entire 3rd octave. I don't know if that's possible on all recorders. I've not tried above the C in the third octave (alto recorder).


Experimenting with these fingerings I made it to the D in the 3rd octave on an alto. I could not get up to the F which would have completed the third octave.


gotta go practice

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Of speakers and watts
by mydp. 11/13/18 05:35 PM
altered chords and chord progressions
by Jitin. 11/13/18 12:26 PM
Ornette Coleman's "Lonely Woman"
by KenBakerMN. 11/13/18 08:54 AM
Crackling noise when recording digital piano
by Tommm777. 11/13/18 01:01 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,318
Posts2,760,801
Members91,484
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2