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Joined: Jan 2015
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Hi all, I'm new to this forum (I was informed that I originally posted this in the wrong place). I'm actually mainly a drummer, and have picked up some patchy piano advice along the way and tried to learn on my own, but haven't taken proper piano lessons. I mostly play jazz these days on drums, and have learned some basic piano voicings by going through Mark Levine's Jazz Piano Book, and have also sat in on a few courses in jazz harmony.. I can play some jazz standard heads by memory, and have tried to play along with a couple of solos on these standards (from Miles Davis cds, and Charlie Parker using the omnibook, but after I learn them I tend to forget them quickly!). Things are progressing slowly, but I'm wondering if things would progress quicker if I got some proper lessons. I just wanted to ask some experienced pianists, has anyone been at this stage and found that getting lessons really helped to move things forward, or does it sound like I'm doing the right things on my own?
Since it's a second instrument I kind of enjoy that there's no pressure to practice scales/arpeggios and to worry about technique etc, and I wonder if getting proper lessons would force me right back to the beginning and away from the aspects that I enjoy.
Thanks for reading, Caroline
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Joined: May 2009
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I started taking classical lessons to work on technique some ten years ago, and it had a huge impact on my facility, but it was also "boring" as in scales, arpeggios and god knows - and then applied it to jazz. So, in my opinion, yes, lessons would probably help you advance faster, but like you say, it might also spoil your fun. Why not try and transcribe some Charlie Parker and figure out the fingerings as you go? If you use some software to slow it down and sing along with it I think you'll have an easier time remembering it. And it will expand your hearing
Cheers.
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A good jazz teacher would be 100% benefit to you.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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greetings Caroline. I had a couple of lessons years ago which amounted to little more than being pointed in the right direction. I think if your natural curiosity is alive and driven you can get a long way under your own steam. I see from your YT recording you've got a great little band so why not just quiz your keyboard player from time to time? Pure exploration on the piano - finding things out for yourself - is an unparalleled adventure. I can't say there aren't shortcuts but when the penny drops through your own trial and error it really drops with a mighty clang! And whatever you learn, you can push into all twelve keys. Two things about that; i) it's a big job in itself which requires deep commitment but no guidance and ii) you'll discover a great deal about the relationships between keys and, crucially, the topography of the keyboard. Nothing, but nothing, is as important is having this intimate familiarity with where the notes are and how they're going to sound when you play them. (I should say other than playing in 'popular' keys this is advice I never even followed myself.... until now, already an ancient arthritic, all too late!).
As to online teachers, I'm sure you know there are plenty of them who simply cannot play or play very badly so if money's going to change hands, make sure you vet them thoroughly beforehand!
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caroline, a few lessons with a good teacher will immeasurably improve your playing. it sounds like you are curious enough to drive your own learning so a bit of info will go a long way.
check out me free lessons. they can help you with chords, improv and more.
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Thanks for your replies. Dire_tonic I've spoken with the pianist in my band and we're going to try trading drum/piano lessons for a while. I've heard people suggest to others about transposing things into all 12 keys - I did it with Autumn Leaves, just with playing the head and then trying to solo over the top a little in each different key.. It's hard work, but is probably a really good way to get familiar with 251s and minor 251s in all keys, it got easier as I went. Do you really do this for everything you learn?? I'm a bit concerned that I lack decent ideas and phrasing in any one key just now, but hopefully that'll come with time.
KlinkKlonk, I did try that a bit with slowing down Charlie Parker, using the software Transcribe, although I really struggled with his fast phrases so cheated and started using the omnibook.. but the plan now is to try learning the notes then play along with the slowed down recording. I think it'll be a long time until I can get any of these solos fast enough though!
JazzPianoOnline - thanks, I'll check your website out.
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Thanks for your replies. Dire_tonic I've spoken with the pianist in my band and we're going to try trading drum/piano lessons for a while. I've heard people suggest to others about transposing things into all 12 keys - I did it with Autumn Leaves, just with playing the head and then trying to solo over the top a little in each different key.. It's hard work, but is probably a really good way to get familiar with 251s and minor 251s in all keys, it got easier as I went. Do you really do this for everything you learn?? I'm a bit concerned that I lack decent ideas and phrasing in any one key just now, but hopefully that'll come with time.
No, but I wish I had done it! A lost opportunity...but I do it now and I'm sure it's paying off. As you say, it gets easier. Also it gets your fingers to stay alert - the same idea in a key remote from the familiar one will probably need different fingering. Ideas and phrasing...yes, those are the biggies. But if you already have the seed of an inspiration or a way of identifying the hurdles and how to talk about them then you can open up a discussion here and there'll always be a response, often a lengthy discussion! Ideas will flow.
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Joined: Nov 2012
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I'm a bit concerned that I lack decent ideas and phrasing in any one key just now, but hopefully that'll come with time.
Get a book called "Blues Scales Essential Tools for Jazz Improvisation" by Dan Greenblatt. It will help you see the light. I think it'll be a long time until I can get any of these solos fast enough though!
You're not supposed to get the solos "as fast as Charlie Parker". You're supposed to learn each little piece (building block) and learn how it makes sense musically, so that you can put together these building blocks in a way you like at appropriate places in the music. But in my opinion you're jumping ahead of yourself. You need to learn the basic chord progressions and voicings first.
Last edited by Michael Martinez; 01/06/15 02:34 PM.
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Get a book called "Blues Scales Essential Tools for Jazz Improvisation" by Dan Greenblatt. It will help you see the light.
I wrote a review on it in Amazon - a very practical book.
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Joined: Nov 2012
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I've heard people suggest to others about transposing things into all 12 keys - I did it with Autumn Leaves, just with playing the head and then trying to solo over the top a little in each different key.. It's hard work, but is probably a really good way to get familiar with 251s and minor 251s in all keys, it got easier as I went. Do you really do this for everything you learn?? No, but I wish I had done it! A lost opportunity...but I do it now and I'm sure it's paying off. You call yourself a jazzer but you don't play in 12 keys?
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Joined: Jul 2011
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You call yourself a jazzer but you don't play in 12 keys? - you can call yourself any manner of things on the internet. I'm sure you know that as well as anyone....
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Get a book called "Blues Scales Essential Tools for Jazz Improvisation" by Dan Greenblatt. It will help you see the light.
I wrote a review on it in Amazon - a very practical book. Could someone sum up the major concept from this book? I like finding alternate studies on improvisation but I've been burned too many times to just purchase them all. I've been reading reviews and it seems cool and so does another book by him "Minor is Major!" 12 keys - Eventually the work has to be done in other keys, but I think it might be more important to be a master of one key, as long as you are breaking it down rhythmic and harmonically. This way when you think you're ready, migration should be easier. Of course, this encouragement is something I need to get better at
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12 keys - Eventually the work has to be done in other keys, but I think it might be more important to be a master of one key, as long as you are breaking it down rhythmic and harmonically. This way when you think you're ready, migration should be easier. Of course, this encouragement is something I need to get better at I see the virtues in this approach too although over time some fluidity is bound to spill over into a key's IV or V neighbour anyway. Working musicians of necessity will be playing in a variety of genre-dependent popular keys. I would never bother to attempt to do 'everything' in every key; the deeper you dig into one key the more burdensome 'all keys' becomes, obviously. These days I try to spread attention around the keys by, for example, noodling a couple of days in Eb on one idea or tune followed perhaps by a similar spell in A on something quite different.
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Could someone sum up the major concept from this book? I like finding alternate studies on improvisation but I've been burned too many times to just purchase them all. I've been reading reviews and it seems cool and so does another book by him "Minor is Major!"
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 516
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 516 |
Get a book called "Blues Scales Essential Tools for Jazz Improvisation" by Dan Greenblatt. It will help you see the light.
I wrote a review on it in Amazon - a very practical book. Could someone sum up the major concept from this book? Yes, shows you how to develop meaningful phrases, starting with a three-chord blues tune using a *single* blues scale, then slowly introducing additional scales and how to transition from one to the next so that you are playing the changes. The main thing that makes this book smart is the type of exercises that he asks you to do: you slowly build up a vocabulary of phrases, some are his. Also he doesn't confuse you with theory. It's about playing and listening. But probably the biggest selling point is that he teaches you to play jazz in the way that a lot of people learned to play it 60-100 years ago. Nowadays they don't teach you like this, but back then you started out playing blues then you learned how to adjust the blues scales and transition from one to the next to fit the jazz chord changes. The CD that comes with the book reflects this: first "simple" blues. Slowly but surely progressing. By the end of the CD it is true jazz improvisation. In my opinion a much more natural and better approach than the "surrounding chord-tones with approach notes" type of thing that is the "Berklee-school version" of teaching jazz.
Last edited by Michael Martinez; 01/12/15 03:41 PM.
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So I found part of "Blues Scales Essential Tools for Jazz Improvisation" by Dan Greenblatt," on internet and the major concept seems to be, play traditional blues scale on IV an V degree of blues. For the the I chord play traditional blues scale a minor third down. The author didn't explain it that way but it seems to play out that way.
I realized I've used that concept since I first started playing, although not to the extent of really developing my own concept.
I'm not sure what happens after about page 24. For those of you who own it; is there any other major concepts or just exercises based on premise I highlighted?
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I'm not sure what happens after about page 24. For those of you who own it; is there any other major concepts or just exercises based on premise I highlighted?
Keep reading. It gets more involved.
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I'm not sure what happens after about page 24. For those of you who own it; is there any other major concepts or just exercises based on premise I highlighted?
Keep reading. It gets more involved. Not ready to buy the book. Google books didn't have whole book. I'm assuming they remainder of the book talks about adding notes to those two scales so they'll work in non-blues tunes.
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Not ready to buy the book. Google books didn't have whole book. I'm assuming they remainder of the book talks about adding notes to those two scales so they'll work in non-blues tunes. A wrong assumption, but you seem convinced of yourself regardless
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Not ready to buy the book. Google books didn't have whole book. I'm assuming they remainder of the book talks about adding notes to those two scales so they'll work in non-blues tunes. A wrong assumption, but you seem convinced of yourself regardless Please don't tell me how I'm feeling. I'm not convinced about anything. I'm just trying to get someone help me understand the book, which can be more useful. Maybe you can demonstrate how it's helped your playing?
Last edited by 36251; 01/14/15 07:46 PM.
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