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Hello all.

As the title suggests, I'm very curious about the significance of middle sections of some Chopin nocturnes that sound chorale-like/religious. Examples would be from Op. 15 no.3 (marked 'religioso'), Op.37 no.1, and Op.48 no.1 (less sure about that one).

I'm aware that the form is typically meant to evoke the night, and the still, meditative qualities that come with that. But wiki suggests that the term also has some liturgical significance; is it possible that Chopin also had this in mind when writing some of his nocturnes?

I ask because I find these sections quite striking, and I would love to know if they could possess any special significance. As middle-sections they seem to present some solace from the more restless beginning and end sections of the relevant pieces. For a composer that didn't write religious music and seems to have been more occupied with nationalism than theology, this is an interesting thing to come across in his work. Might Chopin be referencing faith as a source of respite from worldly troubles?

My knowledge of music is poor, so I would be pleased to get some input from more knowledgeable folks here.

Furthermore, if anyone knows of any sources of information on the form of the nocturne as Chopin would have understood it, I would appreciate it. Since I only know of Field as the other person to have composed these before Chopin, there doesn't seem to be much to go on.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

WellTempered,

It's a great question, and a great observation. Op.15/3, in particular, has struck may people as not just religious, but deeply mysterious. And Chopin's 3rd Scherzo also has famous chorale-like passages (this time enhanced by some faster rippling effects) that you should think about too.

But I would hesitate to try to figure out exactly what Chopin was thinking here-- if he even consciously knew. I find that approach to be too simple and reductive. It may be true that Chopin was more interested in nationalism than theology, but I wouldn't look to these kinds of things to unlock his secrets. You don't have to know anything about theology to feel that the world is sometimes a tiring despair-invoking place, and to feel the desire to create a self-reflective cathedral-like space in music to get away from it. This doesn't take theology, it takes sensitivity-- and genius.

So rather than understanding Chopin by trying to explain these chorales biographically, I suggest first looking in his music for other examples of this kind of Chopin, and then asking: what other flavors to his work are there? What are examples, not just of the religious Chopin, but the tragic Chopin, the resigned Chopin, the carefree Chopin? IMO studying the works by thinking through these different flavors gives more understanding of his music than looking for biographical causes.

-Jason

Hmmmm, interesting topic. Looking for information I came across this paper from USC. Looks like he was indeed influenced greatly by hymns at least, even if his life didn't actually fit the pattern of the prodigal son.

That page makes it clear that Chopin loved the hymns.



It seems Chopin's actual religious beliefs, though, are more mysterious.

I realize that you wrote "... of the relevant pieces..." but on the other hand, fully one third of the Nocturnes have middle sections that are much more tempestuous or agitated than their relatively calm opening and closing sections.

Regards,

Jeremy Denk has two very interesting and articulate blogs on the chorale in piano music generally!

http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2005/07/19/the-meaning-of-chorale/
http://jeremydenk.net/blog/2007/10/05/holy-touch/

Some very interesting comments about tone or register. Might spark something off re: Chopin's use of it.

Let's play a game and see if we can list every chorale from Chopin's piano music.

I'll start with the one from the Opus 52 Ballade, which occurs just before the infamous sixths passage.

The slow middle section of the Fantasie Opus 49 comes close.

Before the coda?

Sorry in advance for the self reference, but some time ago I wrote an article that explores why Chopin might have used a chorale in 15/3. For those who have access to JSTOR, here's a link to it:

Kallberg Rhetoric of Genre

A somewhat revised version of this article also appears in my book, Chopin at the Boundaries.

There may be PDFs of these floating around out there on the Web!

Jeff Kallberg

I always thought the 'run-away' choral of the Op 10/1 a prime candidate. (Who was it that first made the observation?)

No, though I see how what I said could be confusing. Those five chords, I suppose, do constitute a chorale of sorts, although the passage is not really long enough to be thought of as one.


Yes, and I think the passage at bar 127 would also qualify.

Many thanks for that! So what do you think about the Op 10/1?

In his School of Practical Composition (1840s, I think), Czerny did an analysis of 10/1 as if it were a Bach chorale. But this is more about voice-leading than how we hear the piece (one could do the same with any well-conceived passage of figuration); it doesn't have much to do with how I hear an actual performance of 10/1.

Jeff Kallberg

That magical moment in Op. 62 (Polonaise-fantasie, or, "Ballade No. 5") when the B major chords anticipate the coda.

Can anyone identify the hymn tunes for these chorales?

These are original works. I doubt that ANY of them are based on hymn tunes.

How can we become familiar with Polish Catholic hymns?

The one in the first scherzo is.

I have a vague recollection that one Chopin "chorale" section was based on a Polish Christmas carol. Sorry I can't be more specific.

I think that is an old Polish Christmas song (Lulajze Jezuniu), rather than a hymn tune as such.

I'd love to know whether there're any chorale-sounding tunes in piano music that have been appropriated for use as hymns. Brahms's third piano sonata (finale) for example. Or even Liszt's piano sonata.