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Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2367237
12/30/14 02:47 PM
12/30/14 02:47 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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> 3M VIEWS!

Thanks for the views everyone!

[Linked Image]

Set 'em up and let's go champagne bowling!

Here's to DP sampling improving significantly in 2015!

(Anyone got a Physis H1/2/3? I'd definitely come out of temporary DPBSD retirement to review that...)

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Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2370092
01/06/15 06:52 AM
01/06/15 06:52 AM
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
(Anyone got a Physis H1/2/3? I'd definitely come out of temporary DPBSD retirement to review that...)


@dewster,

Very good question as it remains to be seen if they ever will become available in the US... however, they have an Italian "Fatar" action and that's why I'll never buy one.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: pv88] #2370186
01/06/15 12:17 PM
01/06/15 12:17 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pv88
Very good question as it remains to be seen if they ever will become available in the US... however, they have an Italian "Fatar" action and that's why I'll never buy one.

They seem to have rational and nice looking accessories for the Physis:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
The stand with the built-in sound bar seems awesome!

Though to download the English manual I had to modify the URL to the following:

http://www.viscountinstruments.com/...0PhysisPiano%20H1-H2-H3%20(EN)%20v15.pdf

Can's say I have tons of faith in a company that can't even get a URL right.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2370189
01/06/15 12:19 PM
01/06/15 12:19 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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I added the following to the "begging" section of the OP:

- Kurzweil Forte (both the German and Japanese piano voices).
- Viscount Physis H1, H2, or H3.

I'd be quite happy to do full sound technology reviews of these two DPs if someone could provide the MP3s.

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Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: pv88] #2370191
01/06/15 12:24 PM
01/06/15 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by dewster
(Anyone got a Physis H1/2/3? I'd definitely come out of temporary DPBSD retirement to review that...)


@dewster,

Very good question as it remains to be seen if they ever will become available in the US... however, they have an Italian "Fatar" action and that's why I'll never buy one.


It appears that you might be able to order Viscount Instruments through:
Pierre's Fine Pianos on Pico in W.Los Angeles 310-473-0600
He sold one of their new K4 controllers to someone here on the forum recently.

Last edited by ElmerJFudd; 01/06/15 12:25 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2370786
01/07/15 05:32 PM
01/07/15 05:32 PM
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jpyt Offline
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Hi dewster,

I've recently bought Yamah CLP-575 piano (575/585 models have VRM technology this is physical modeling string resonance).
Today I've recorded WAV files of your test using both Yamaha Grand CFX and Bosendorfer voice.

It seems that Yamaha finally made realy good Clavinova piano.
On both voices:
* there are full 88-keys samples (no stretching any longer!)
* no looping (I don't know how it is possible but either samples are 12-14 sec. long or some magic trick has been applied)
* it is very hard to find any steps in velocity levels (on Bosendorfer voice virtually there aren't any levels or I can't find them).

I've compared those result with Yamaha CLP-440 (tested by you some time ago) and It seems that with 5XX series we have finally real revolution (except damper sound, here without changes and it is still completly silent).

If you would like I can send you recorded WAV files or post here some of captured graphs (spectrum plots) for other users.


PS.
Sorry for potential language mistakes, it is not my native language and it seems that I haven't talent to foreign languages smile

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2370923
01/07/15 10:31 PM
01/07/15 10:31 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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jpyt, if you want to stick the WAV files somewhere and supply a link I'll certainly take a look at it. Or if you want to email me MP3s PM me and I'll give you my email address.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2370938
01/07/15 11:36 PM
01/07/15 11:36 PM
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Interesting, with regard to the 575/585 models. Yamaha isn't giving the information we need in the specs or features, but they are suggesting it's a larger library than they've used before including key off samples, they've somehow solved the smooth transitions between sample layers - maybe using a technique similar to Roland's SuperNatural method, 256 note polyphony, and an NWX action with escapement. Not too shabby.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2371057
01/08/15 08:41 AM
01/08/15 08:41 AM
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jpyt Offline
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OK. Yamaha CLP-575 records:

1. Yamaha CFX voice, factory settings and Reverb=Off, Effects=Off
DPBSD_v2.0_Yamaha_CLP575_GrandCFX.WAV

2. Bosendorfer voice, factory setting and Reverb=Off, Effects=Off
dpbsd_v2.0_Yamaha_CLP575_Bosendorfer.WAV


Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2371104
01/08/15 11:55 AM
01/08/15 11:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Yamaha isn't giving the information we need in the specs or features...

It seems to be against Yamaha company policy to give us the specs we need. Kills the mystique in their glossy adverts or something. It can be fun to call them up and ask about the number of layers or whatever in the particular model you own (!) and listen to them hem and haw.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
... but they are suggesting it's a larger library than they've used before...

Yeah, funny how suggestion in place of real information tends to work in their favor.

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
... they've somehow solved the smooth transitions between sample layers...

Actually, to their credit, Yamaha and the others solved the sample layer smoothing thing a long time ago (one of the very few advantages they had for a while over PC-based samplers). Kawai may have been the first to get rid of stretching (in a general sense), Roland the first to get rid of looping. Roland SN is both unstretched and unlooped, I don't believe I've tested anything by Yamaha or Kawai that can make the same claim (including, unfortunately, the CLP-575, which is not stretched but is audibly looped - more to come).

My experience with Yamaha is that, with a couple of rare exceptions (CLP-990, AG-N3, and now the CLP-575) they are very stretched. Even the CP1 has only 49 notes sampled. Their mid to low priced offerings usually have 30 or so notes sampled, though toyish things like the NP-V60 can have as few as 13 notes sampled. They are always looped. And their sympathetic resonance is generally non-existent, weak / fake sounding (to my ears). For all their market dominance, they have surprisingly little going for them in the AP sound technology department.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2371152
01/08/15 01:43 PM
01/08/15 01:43 PM
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jpyt Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
the CLP-575, which is not stretched but is audibly looped


Hmmm do you think that samples are looped?
Definitly you have more expierence in this area than I have, however please take a look at Spectral Pan view of middle C (eg. Bosendorfer voice).


[Linked Image]

Tone start at 4:12 and even 10 second later you can see unregular changes in modulation. I think it is not typical graph of looped samples. At least it looks completly different to Yamaha CLP-440 graph of C4 tone or even to Kawai C95 - thos DPs are definitly looped.


Last edited by jpyt; 01/08/15 01:44 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: jpyt] #2371154
01/08/15 01:46 PM
01/08/15 01:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jpyt
OK. Yamaha CLP-575 records:

Thanks jpyt! I'll add you to the honor roll and link this post to the OP index.

The Bosendorfer level is quite low (-23dB peak or ~12 bits of information) but usable for analysis. I normalized both (which can introduce artifacts at the noise floor) converted them to MP3 and placed them here:

Yamaha CLP-575 GrandCFX MP3
Yamaha CLP-575 Bosendorfer MP3

The good news is neither appears to be stretched, the sympathetic resonance seems to be improved, and both pass most of the DPBSD tests. The bad news is both are visibly and audibly looped, so I won't be doing a complete review of the CLP-575. Attack sample lengths are around 3 seconds in duration with loops following. Loop lengths are indeterminate, but in many cases sound rather short. I see evidence of maybe 4 layers in the CFX, there could be more that I'm not seeing. The Bosendorfer layers are too well blended for me to see anything.

Originally Posted by jpyt
Hmmm do you think that samples are looped?

Yes, almost certainly. I believe the sympathetic resonance effect is masking it somewhat, but I can hear the typical loop quavering, changes in the stereo placement as the attack sample transitions to the loop in many of the notes, and there is telltale spectral view evidence as well.

[Linked Image]
Above is the spectral phase view of the Bosendorfer, note C2. There is an obvious transition from sample to loop at the cursor, with blending going on before that.

[Linked Image]
Above is the spectral phase view of the CFX, note C2. Again, an obvious transition from sample to loop at the cursor.

[Linked Image]
Above is the spectral phase view of the CFX, note C3. Blah, blah. Yet another butchered sample set attached to some nice keys in an expensive box.

Maybe it's just me, but I expect a bit more from an instrument that's selling for 5 large (MSRP).

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2371200
01/08/15 03:32 PM
01/08/15 03:32 PM
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jpyt Offline
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So .... it's much better in compare to Yamaha CLP-4XX serie but not perfect and not as good as I thought.
In such case sorry for whole hype.
I know that you are not interested in loopers, I haven't normalized file and mainly because of Bosendorfer I thought that we haven't looped samples in this piano.

One more time sorry and thanks for your time.

BTW. It's strange that after so many years of the DPs development we still haven't even one perfect (or almost perfect) instrument. Roland probably has the best sound of the piano but also you can find some cons there. And for me it is unacceptable that even new top models still suffer noise problem from the plastic keys (probably the only one producer that haven't wooden keyboard in his offer frown ).

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: jpyt] #2371208
01/08/15 03:53 PM
01/08/15 03:53 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jpyt
One more time sorry and thanks for your time.

jpyt, absolutely no apology necessary, and thank you very much for providing the files! I'm sure there are others who will want to listen to them in order to evaluate the CLP-575 on their own, and it's interesting hearing & seeing what Yamaha's latest has to offer. Please don't take my ranting personally, the DP industry drives me a little crazy sometimes.

Re: The DPBSD Project! Kawai MP7 [Re: dewster] #2371233
01/08/15 04:25 PM
01/08/15 04:25 PM
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lophiomys Offline
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Re: The DPBSD Project! Kawai MP7 [Re: lophiomys] #2371306
01/08/15 06:25 PM
01/08/15 06:25 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
A DPBSD recording with my MP7:

Thanks lophiomys! The level is pretty low, and there is some kind of abrupt drop-out during C3 of the looping test. I also don't see / hear much if anything in the way of sympathetic resonance - was that effect turned down when you made the recording?

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2371495
01/09/15 07:29 AM
01/09/15 07:29 AM
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lophiomys Offline
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No, I did not turn anything down intentionally.
I did the recording with the stock "Concert Grand", and here the playback of the midi file appeared very loud over the headphones and the monitor speakers. The abrupt drop-out at 4:11 of my recording is a recording glitch the MP7 produces on the USB storage, because I still was not able to guess the right brand of USB stick for the MP7. Silly customer me!

Here is a second recording with gain +5 dB, "String Resonance" checked to be at default 5.
This recording from 9.jan seems not to have any recording glitch. Hurray.
Dropbox: dpbsd_v2.0-Kawai-MP7-v1.05-Edwin-Lot142-20150109-Gain5.wav

OT:
There might be a randomly occurring bug in the V1.05 firmware with sound parameters changing in the background or a loose contact in hardware of my MP7 "Edwin". Playing your midi file, was one try to track that bugger down. I have another WAV recording with a strong cutoff filter set, where single notes break through the filter (Kawai Service in Germany is not responding on this since two working days). The strange thing is, after playing your DPBSD MIDI file, the first MIDI file I ever played on this MP7, it seems to have reset something in the sound system, as the "Concert Grand" is sounding much more pleasant now! I'll report on this in a separate thread later on ...



Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: lophiomys] #2371506
01/09/15 08:09 AM
01/09/15 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
The strange thing is, after playing your DPBSD MIDI file, the first MIDI file I ever played on this MP7, it seems to have reset something in the sound system, as the "Concert Grand" is sounding much more pleasant now!


dewster must truly be a genius.

By the way, WAV recorder audio glitches should be fixed in the forthcoming software update, however the public release has been delayed following a last-minute (unrelated) report received from Kawai Europe.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2371523
01/09/15 09:06 AM
01/09/15 09:06 AM
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It's not so much that "dewster would be a genius",
but more that there is something unreliable in the sound generation of my MP7,
which is keeping me on my toes. I am looking forward to get hands on the new firmware ...

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: lophiomys] #2371566
01/09/15 11:29 AM
01/09/15 11:29 AM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Here is a second recording with gain +5 dB, "String Resonance" checked to be at default 5.
This recording from 9.jan seems not to have any recording glitch. Hurray.

Thanks! The levels look better.

I hear something similarly to the first recording going on about 36 seconds in during the decay of the first sympathetic resonance test, like someone is playing with my headphone jack and causing intermittent level changes.

Still no evidence of pedal type sympathetic resonance, though I hear some of the key type.

C3 (the C below middle C) sounds like it goes a bit flat as it transitions to the loop (about 4 second into the note playing). C4 (middle C) sounds like a mild low pass filter is gradually being applied as it transitions to the loop. Gotta love looping.

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