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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
ando #2368284 01/01/15 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by anotherscott

I think the question could be a matter of where the graded weight is physically placed. If it's in the keys themselves, maybe it could be as simple as buying a few sets of C6 to C8 keys as service parts, and using those keys to replace all the lower ones? This mod would be nicely reversible, too...


I think it depends on the weight of the hammers themselves. You can't put in a key which is weighted for a different hammer weight without significantly changing how it feels and behaves. Unless you can easily change the hammers too, I wouldn't be mixing and matching.

That's what I was talking about when I said it depends on where the graded weight is physically placed. On a real piano, as I alluded to in the other message, all the hammers are different, out of necessity (and counterweights on keys are altered accordingly). But on a DP, there is no inherent reason the hammer mechanisms need to be different. Something is being altered, not out of necessity, but to increase the illusion of playing a real piano, and the question is where that alteration is occurring. Yes, if they are altering both the keys and the hammer mechanisms, then a assume you'd have to find a way to change both.

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
anotherscott #2368311 01/02/15 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by anotherscott

I think the question could be a matter of where the graded weight is physically placed. If it's in the keys themselves, maybe it could be as simple as buying a few sets of C6 to C8 keys as service parts, and using those keys to replace all the lower ones? This mod would be nicely reversible, too...


I think it depends on the weight of the hammers themselves. You can't put in a key which is weighted for a different hammer weight without significantly changing how it feels and behaves. Unless you can easily change the hammers too, I wouldn't be mixing and matching.

But on a DP, there is no inherent reason the hammer mechanisms need to be different.


It's true, there isn't, but I believe some of the high end actions these days have a fully graduated hammer weight from left to right (not just in 3 or 4 banks) I saw a picture of such an action somewhere, just can't remember which model it was. I'm not sure if some of the Kawai actions have that now. But with 88 different hammer weights, the only remedy there would be to buy a whole heap of identical hammers and weight all the keys the same way. I think it would end up costing as much as the VPC1. I think I'd just look for a keyboard action I can enjoy without modifying it.

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368378 01/02/15 07:36 AM
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. As I pointed out in my post above, the grading in the VPC1 is in the differing weights riveted to the second plastic lever operated by each key (except for some added weights placed into the wooden keys in about the lowest octave and a half). So, if you could buy levers like those in the top octave for the rest of the keyboard, that would lighten and even the whole keyboard, and the job could be finished by unscrewing the extra weights in the lowest wooden keys.

. If 3-D printing were cheap enough...


Jack
Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
joflah #2368387 01/02/15 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by joflah
. As I pointed out in my post above, the grading in the VPC1 is in the differing weights riveted to the second plastic lever operated by each key (except for some added weights placed into the wooden keys in about the lowest octave and a half). So, if you could buy levers like those in the top octave for the rest of the keyboard, that would lighten and even the whole keyboard, and the job could be finished by unscrewing the extra weights in the lowest wooden keys.

. If 3-D printing were cheap enough...

Ah, I missed your earlier post. Yup, that sounds like the answer!

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
joflah #2368425 01/02/15 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joflah
the grading in the VPC1 is in the differing weights riveted to the second plastic lever operated by each key...

...So, if you could buy levers like those in the top octave for the rest of the keyboard, that would lighten and even the whole keyboard,


Do you, or anyone, know if it is possible to buy these levers as spare parts from Kawai?

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368434 01/02/15 11:59 AM
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Call Kawai US - Service Dept in California.

There are three types of weighted arms. You would need approx 60 of the lighter ones. The arms appear to be identical. Just the weight is different. Also, get a small tube of grease for the hinge in the base of the arm. Be very careful of the paper washers under the key itself at the pivot point. Each key is adjusted for height using these washers. The keys themselves are numbered 1-88.

This way, you can always put everything back together again to original.


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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
McBuster #2368456 01/02/15 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by McBuster
The keys themselves are numbered 1-88.

That's interesting... that implies that there are 88 different keys being manufactured (as opposed to 12 that get used over and over again, and maybe a different one for the lowest A). I wonder how they differ (apart from, as mentioned, the lowest ones having a counterweight installed), and whether that might be a factor to contend with if changing the arms.

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368559 01/02/15 04:38 PM
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All I meant there, don't worry of mixing up the wooden keys. They are numbered. But, the "F" key from one octave is the same in all. They have to be numbered as each is tuned to a specific height with the paper washers under the key on the post where it fulcrums.

I believe the actual keys are assembled in banks of an octave. Twelve keys. This makes it easier when assembling the final product.

(Oooops - This is from the Gr Feel keyboard. I hope the other on e is similar.)

Last edited by McBuster; 01/02/15 06:51 PM.

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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368640 01/02/15 07:10 PM
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I wonder if other stuff is involved here besides just the weight of the key. Like, the hammer mechanism in order to balance the return. You alter one, the other needs something doing to it also otherwise it may not feel right . . . just a thought.


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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
McBuster #2368655 01/02/15 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by McBuster
All I meant there, don't worry of mixing up the wooden keys. They are numbered. But, the "F" key from one octave is the same in all. They have to be numbered as each is tuned to a specific height with the paper washers under the key on the post where it fulcrums.


I am not quite sure I understand exactly what you are saying here. If the (for example) "F" keys are the same, why would they need to be tuned to a specific height? And if they are tuned with the paper washers wouldn't that make it necessary to NOT mix them up? Do you know if the paper washers are of different thickness?

Would you please elaborate.

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368663 01/02/15 07:44 PM
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Variations in material weight and manufacturing tolerances

We are dealing with wood. Not molded plastic.


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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368696 01/02/15 09:40 PM
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Ok, so the paper washers are actually of different thickness. Thank you for clearing that up.

Thanks to you guys in this thread I guess it should be possible to modify the VPC1 to a lighter key action, with a possibility to reverse it if desired.

So what is needed is replacement parts in form of a number of levers with the lighter weight used in the upper register (and some greese).

Some questions remain though. For instance how to deal with the keys in the lower register that has added weights? I guess they have to be changed for replacement keys. Does anyone know how many keys that have added weight to them?


Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368780 01/03/15 02:08 AM
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First off, Apologies. In the previous posts, I was not thinking of the RM3 Grand II Keyboard but the Grand Feel I have in the CA95. That said, I would believe there are more than a few similarities.

Here is Kawai Pix of the RM3 Grand II. My notes have been added.

[Linked Image]

You will be interested in the Hammer Weight at the right end of the white plastic hammer. I would trust there are three banks of weights. One for bass, midrange and treble keys.

If you replace hammers, you will need to adjust the height of the hammer using the Mushroom Headed Screw. This height must be uniform for all the hammers to insure consistent timing from the key being pressed to the sensor describing a note. When performing this function, the Factory may have special electronics to help them make the right adjustment. I would believe a half turn one way or the other on this screw would make a large difference in timing. Timing that may be difficult to accomplish by just looking at the hammers individually.

The Counterweight is actually a screw under the front part of the key. I would trust these are different weights for each individual key. In order to balance the key front to back.

Any key height adjustments would be under the key, on the pin for the Fulcrum. This would dictate different thicknesses in washers to ensure the same height up front for each key. This is necessary as the key is made of wood and there will be slight differences between each one in weight or dimension.

As I noted previously, I would believe in this model the keys are numbered 1-88 as they are in the Grand Feel. This way, all the (F) Keys can be milled/shaped the same, yet the individual height and weight for each key can be accounted for when replacing them back onto the keybed.


Jon ...

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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2368865 01/03/15 09:05 AM
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. I took a closer look at my VPC1's works tonight. There do seem to be a very limited number of different weightings across the keyboard. Specifically, the top 24 notes, from key number 64 through 88, have the same weights on all the black keys and on all the white keys, different for black and white of course. This is true even though the last white key (C-88), being full width, weighs 98 grams, while the next white key (B-87) weighs only 59 grams. Presumably the extra weight of key 88 is balanced across the pivot point.

. So, if the top two octaves have satisfactory weightings, you'd only have to buy two different types of lever, and only 64 total of them.

. I looked closer at the screws on the lower keys. There are screws on the first 32 keys. They are all the same, 5 grams. The screws on all the white keys are in the same position, as are those on all the black keys. So, they aren't tailored to the specific keys. It seems the designers wanted to increase the inertia of the lowest keys without increasing the static down weight as much, so they used heavier weights on the plastic levers and compensated them with the screws.

. If the keyboard were modified with lighter-weighted levers this way, the counterweight screws on the lowest 32 keys could simply be removed. The empty hole would only amount to a few milligrams of material.


Jack
Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2369254 01/04/15 08:48 AM
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McBuster, joflah and others, thank you for all insight and information.

The conclusion of what is needed to modify VPC1 to a lighter key action then would be the following (please correct me if I am wrong or if I missed something.).

Parts needed

- 64 of the lighter-weight hammers that is used together with keys number 65-88.

(32 of the sort that is used in conjunction with the black keys and 32 of the sort that is used in conjunction with the white keys.)

- Grease of the sort that is used on the hammers.

Work needed

Replacement of the hammers

- I am not sure how easy or difficult there would be to replace the hammers. Though, from pictures I have seen of the action I dont think any tools are needed to replace them?

- Grease the hammers as compared to the ones already in place.

Regulate capstan screw

- Adjustment might be needed by turning of the capstan regulator/screw in order to fine-tune the distance between the key, hammer and cusion. This might just be a question of comparing to already calibrated keys/hammers.

- Remove counter-weights from keys 1-32. I don't know if any tools might be needed for this.

Other

- I suppose that no regulation of key height with paper washers should be needed since only the hammers and not the keys themselves are replaced.

Comments are very welcome.

Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2369261 01/04/15 09:14 AM
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I admire your pioneering spirit. I wonder to what extent you and other contributors here have inadvertently hit upon what amount to the core modifications of the fabulously expensive Ravensworks version of the VPC1?

I don't mean to party-poop but I remain unconvinced that the MP11 wouldn't have been a wiser shortcut even if the parts are readily available and not too pricey. OTOH, if you've got time on your hands and it works...why not!

No doubt you'll update your progress...


Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2369271 01/04/15 09:49 AM
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While all is open, explore how to fine-tune, or move, the posts the forward part of the key uses as an index. Then , if possible, make tiny adjustments to space the keys evenly betwixt each others. That, plus refining the height would be meaningful for me. It is not annoying but would feel better.


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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
dire tonic #2369276 01/04/15 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
I admire your pioneering spirit. I wonder to what extent you and other contributors here have inadvertently hit upon what amount to the core modifications of the fabulously expensive Ravensworks version of the VPC1?


Here is 20-page information from Ravensworks on the extensive work and alterations they do to the VPC1:

http://nebula.wsimg.com/7563cfd9d30...548C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

All I want to do is to use the lighter hammers that already exist in VPC1 across the board.




Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
farao #2369295 01/04/15 11:08 AM
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Link will not open for me.

Ian


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Re: Modiify VPC1 to lighter key action / touch weight?
Beemer #2369299 01/04/15 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Link will not open for me.

Ian


Strange, it works here. It is a link to a pdf-file.

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