Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tuning in the dry winter - raise up to 440 or leave flat?

Mark -
My approach is a bit different than yours. For instance, I use more of an impact style on the tuning hammer rather than the slow pull you describe. I think it is good for any technician to try different methods and see what works best for him/her. Hey - I prefer black raspberry ice cream. But, there are lots of other flavors that people enjoy.

Unless the tuning is for a concert I prefer to float the pitch. Always tuning to precisely A-440 requires a lot of unnecessary work. If I insist on tuning a piano now (in December) it will probably be a few (or even quite a few) cents flat by February and possibly sharp by June. It has been my experience that floating the pitch, within reason, helps the client get "the most mileage" out of a tuning.

+1

+1

Does anyone accompany floating with different stretch so as to reduce tuning time more by increasing the chance of "meeting up" with the extremes? I'm using P4 windows which provide a very small window in which to tune the treble and I have to decide which SBI I want to tune pure, 12th, 19th, or 22nd, and where I change from one to the other. If at all. The thought has crossed my mind that I could float the pitch down in the winter and tune pure 19ths (most stretched) and still "meet" the extremes that were tuned with pure 22nd (least stretch) in the summer.

Are you hoping the pitch passes 440 on its way to the other side? I.e. Jan 439, Apr 440, July 441?

Today, I tuned a S&S L. Last tuned in July at 440. Checking across the compass it was more towards +2c. So I set my trusty Verituner to +2c and tuned the piano with only minor pitch variations at the left side of the breaks, lowest bass and top few notes. This piano does have 2 DC rods with an H-D.

For stretch, the VT allows multi-partial sampling with apportioned percentages which I find very amenable to customization.
A piano this size gets my Medium Stretch which I've refined over the past few years with the input of musicians' preferences.

Medium Stretch Sample points:
A0 is split between: 10:5 50%; 8:4 50%
A1: 6:3 60%; 8:4 40%
A2: 6:3 60%; 4:2 40%
A3-A4: 4:2 60%; 2:1 40%
A5 4:2 25%; 4:1 25%; 3:1 50%
A6: 4:1 35%; 3:1 65%
C8: 4:1 35%; 8:1 65%

All with no beats imposed.

I don't know why anyone still uses single partial sampling.

I have one stretch more narrow than this and three more expanded.

The wider stretches have the stretch that pianists have asked for. Triads played in the second inversion sound like chimes in the high treble. I found that any percentage of a 2:1 octave in the treble sounded constricted (triads) and didn't produce the shimmering effect that musicians requested. I did away with the 2:1 in the treble starting at A5. Increasing the percentage of the 3:1 gave me the results I wanted. At A6, 3:1 at 50% still sounded too constricted; so I increased it's percentage until I got the sound I wanted, more of an effect. The 8:1 on C8 increased as well. My other stretches are fairly similar up to oct 5, where the 3:1 and 8:1 increase for the wider stretches.
Large Stretch:
A6: 4:1 30%; 3:1 70%
C8: 4:1 30%; 8:1 70%

Wide: 25%; 75%

Wider: 20%; 80%

Small: 40%; 60%

The other sample points are slightly different too but I wanted to just show the treble stretch. Small, Medium, Large, Wide are my nomenclature and not VT's. Make your own stretch and call it anything you like :-) All these stretches are listed in their entirety on the VT Forum, along with many other tech's stretches. I also have a pdf of mine if anyone is interested.

So no, the stretch should not be changed seasonally, just the pitch.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread on stretch, I just wanted to touch on what Mark referred to when floating the pitch in regards to stretch and add how VT'ers approach stretch with multi-partial sampling.

The pitch will migrate thru 440 thru the seasons. The tuning will be more stable if you allow this transition and not force a net tension change. Keep a tuning record and watch the pitch migrate slightly as it is tuned multiple times per year, month to month. I've tuned a piano at 439 in mid June, mid July 440, early August 440.5, late August 441. Next year the same pattern. This particular piano has a few soft tuning pin issues, so the less I have to move anything, the better all around.

Gerry,

I am sorry and apologize for your perception that I criticize everyone who does not use the same methods as I do. That, is however not true. I have always said that technicians need to find methods that work for them, personally.

In my opinion, the fastest and easiest way to cause a novice technician these days to totally give up on and forsake aural tuning is to give them a book or manual that displays a 4ths & 5ths temperament sequence and tell them not to use a mute strip.

Thanks Bill. I'll accept your word regarding your intentions and apologize if I misinterpreted.

Bill, I enjoy your posts and I totally agree with using a strip and with not depending exclusively any particular type of interval in any aspect of tuning or the training of tuners.

You have mentioned the use of a strip in your last 4-5 posts and in one post attributed some superhuman traits in not using one. Something seems to be bothering you?
If I still had to do the large seasonal pitch changes that you have to do, I would use one all the time.

I would just like to express a rationale for the use of single wedges when the need dictates for any of the readers here who might be interested since you raised the subject.

Far from superhuman, my use of a single wedge betrays my humanity and consequently my fallibility.

Using a single wedge (in fact I carry three and use two for the bearings and doubling up in the really resonant areas) alows me to keep a constant check on all unisons as I go. With a wedge I always tune from a completed unison so I will hear a unison every time I use it to tune another interval from it. I will sometimes refine a perfectly still unison when I listen to it from a different perspective. This is moreso when I stand up to tune the last few notes. Standing up is not the best stance for someone of my height to set pins but, to be honest, it saves moving those really heavy concert benches around. Plus, I avoid moving the bench in any way after the pianist has rehearsed and set it all up

There is always a lot riding on my tuning and that of my colleagues and if I make too many even minor errors, I could get benched and even have to get a real job and have to work for a living. As it is, I can usually enjoy a nap in the afternoon between my morning tunings and the later ones just before the concerts. After fifty years there's still a lot for me to learn.

Another reason is that, since I rarely have to spend more than a few minutes refinement on each piano, I can check easily every note for its pitch and it's unison all at the same time. Every interval is checked with all it's constituent strings sounding.
I am paid very well for this work and make very close to my tuning fee per hour when on a whole days tune and attend so I don't want to leave anything to chance, now, do I??? Neither do I want to have to go back to working for a living. Of course, I sometimes am faced with a complete tuning and little time to accomplish it and I still feel less fallible doing it with a single wedge, even a 2 Hz pitch change which I sometimes have to do ( actually, being an almost full time adjunct now, I can choose not to but I always do it to keep my hand in. It's a double fee but usually a tuning and a half measured in time.

I do still use a single wedge, or did, when I tuned domestic pianos where I could because I always used pretty much the same principles and tune in a similar manner whether the piano was last tuned four hours ago or four years ago. (see the current thread on stability).

Hope this helps.

RXD, if the only tuning I did was the kind you do, I would only use a single wedge. That happens perhaps only a few times per year. The people I am trying to help learn usually will be tuning very poor pianos that are so far off that it isn't even funny. If they are going to take the PTG tuning exam, that piano will also be completely strip muted. I told my current apprentice that after he passes that exam, he can and should try any other methods to find out what works for him but it will be a very long time before he is ever asked to tune a fine grand that only needs a touch up before a concert or recording session.

What gets me is that every time I mention muting strips, three or four guys pipe in an say that they USED to use them but now they don't as if they were analogous to training wheels on a bicycle. In other words, "You ain't a real man yet unless you can tune the whole piano without a strip".

These days, there are far too many people entering the profession who won't even attempt aural tuning but they will turn on the ETD, start at A0 and use a single wedge all the way to the top. That is something I never have done and never would do! But that is what it says to do in those manuals. It also says in the books that after tuning a 4ths & 5ths sequence, if the last interval does not resolve, all you have to do is "back up".

These are the kinds of things that need to be sorted out for what they are. All you have to do to play the violin is drag some horse hair across some cat gut and wiggle your finger on the string. I know its true because I have seen thousands of people do that. All anyone needs to do to tune a piano is what you do, RXD. We all know that because that's what you do so if you do it, so could anyone else.

Bill, could it be possible that you're simply misinterpreting their comments? Could it be possible that they're simply stating their preference at face value, and aren't at all trying to imply that anyone who uses strips is a lesser tuner?



On one hand you claim that everyone should find their own method that works best for them, but then you ridicule anyone who has decided to go the single mute method, ascribing arrogance and ill intent. I don't get it. And I say this as someone who learned to tune using strips and RBIs and still uses them regularly today (though I also use a single mute occasionally).

Did rxd (or anyone else for that matter) claim anywhere that single mute method is the only one everyone else should be learning from the get go, or did he simply give an explanation as to why it works for him in his work? Has anyone even said that people starting out should just be handed a single mute and start tuning 4ths and 5ths?