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Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356178 11/29/14 01:32 PM
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@MRC: Nothing against electric cellos or violins if played with virtuosity. However, this video (and its sequels) look a lot like Yamaha sales videos, and I guess Geringas was well paid for the performance.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
maurus #2356186 11/29/14 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
@MRC: Nothing against electric cellos or violins if played with virtuosity. However, this video (and its sequels) look a lot like Yamaha sales videos, and I guess Geringas was well paid for the performance.


I expect Geringas is well paid for most performances he does.

If an artist is convinced of the qualities of a certain instrument, be it a Fazioli grand, a Bach Stradivarius trumpet or a Yamaha digital cello, he may well be happy to participate in promotional activities for the said instrument. The fact that he gets paid doesn't negate his appreciation of the instrument.

The point here is not to speculate on how much money Geringas was getting for that performance, but to judge the musical quality of said performance. Geringas makes fine music on a digital cello and shows that it is a perfectly valid musical instrument in its own right. He won't stop playing his acoustic cello but he's happy to have a different instrument that has different qualities.


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Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356312 11/29/14 08:06 PM
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I don't think acoustic Pianos, Drums, Guitars, Trumpets, Saxophones, Bongos, Violins, Congas, Timbales, Flutes, Tubas, Oboes, etc will dissapear.

I can't picture a symphony orchestra doing without these things.

No speaker can ever reproduce with 100 percent authenticity, the sound of an acoustic piano.

The problem might not lie with the Instrument, it will surely lie with the means of conveying that instrument's sound to the listener.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356364 11/29/14 10:49 PM
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What I'm waiting for is when digitals get good enough that the teaching profession is more than satisfied that a nice digital piano does everything necessary to prepare a student to play on a grand piano in a concert hall without forcing the student to bear the cost and maintenance burden required by a concert hall grand piano.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356373 11/29/14 11:35 PM
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I'm going to be honest here and say the Kawai MP11 has made me completely rethink digital pianos. I had a Yamaha Clavinova that I bought and it was good 12+ years ago when I got it, but I hated it after a few months. Between the action and the artificiality of the sounds, I couldn't stand it. Fast forward to now, I cant get enough of the MP11 and I would be tempted to get rid of my Steinway upright and replace it with this. What's in store another dozen years from now? Probably something even more amazing.

I think a serious concert hall in a decade could replace an acoustic with a digital and just run the sound through the hall's speakers. They mic instruments anyway, I'm sure this would be easier and cheaper.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356400 11/30/14 02:24 AM
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Re: My prediction, Your thought
maurus #2356402 11/30/14 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by maurus
@Scott Hamlin: The woman in that first video is not even playing the violin. She is just posing with it.



Just because it's a music video doesn't mean she is just "posing". The lady can play! Yuki Ke has does a lot of classical work on the electric violin. Yes classical artists DO use electric instruments.


Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356418 11/30/14 04:34 AM
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Sans commentaire.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
navyasw02 #2356426 11/30/14 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by navyasw02


I think a serious concert hall in a decade could replace an acoustic with a digital and just run the sound through the hall's speakers. They mic instruments anyway,

No, instruments (or voices) aren't mic'ed in 'serious concert halls'.

Except for the rare occasions I mentioned earlier. Have you ever been to a classical concert?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: My prediction, Your thought
Scott Hamlin #2356427 11/30/14 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Hamlin
Originally Posted by maurus
@Scott Hamlin: The woman in that first video is not even playing the violin. She is just posing with it.



Just because it's a music video doesn't mean she is just "posing". The lady can play! Yuki Ke has does a lot of classical work on the electric violin. Yes classical artists DO use electric instruments.


It depends on what you mean by 'classical artists'.......

No classical violinist, violist, cellist, double-bassist, woodwind player, brass player, percussionist - or even singer grin - who play classical music seriously use 'electric instruments'. Except digital pianos, which quite a few classical pianists use for learning new scores and technical work (getting tricky passages into their fingers with mindless repetitions while reading a book wink ) at unsocial hours.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: My prediction, Your thought
bnolsen #2356430 11/30/14 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bnolsen
What I'm waiting for is when digitals get good enough that the teaching profession is more than satisfied that a nice digital piano does everything necessary to prepare a student to play on a grand piano in a concert hall without forcing the student to bear the cost and maintenance burden required by a concert hall grand piano.

Thing is - with my experience of teachers, that's not going to happen for a good proportion of teachers, purely based on merit.

There are some that would never concede to a digital, no matter how good, represntative or valid - and they've probably never played on one, nor have any intention of.

Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356445 11/30/14 07:17 AM
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Ever fewer concert halls as better and more novel modes of spectator provision are devised, Youtube being a modest opener.

This trend will converge perhaps on one Global Hyper-Hall which will self-digest into a catastrophic failure owing to the ever mounting pressure on the necessary transport infrastructures required to bring audiences in from around the world. The net effect will be just one superb grand piano based at GHH. That piano and all those remaining in private hands will suffer the shrinking attention of a diminishing army of capable technicians (this is happening now) until they become curios and museum pieces.

Digital pianos will cease to have actions, instead utilizing 88 (or more) of the type of pressure-sensitive touch controls we see on everyday elevators. New techniques developed around the technology will potentiate virtuosity that will make Horowitz or <insert name of your current fave> look like banana-fingered no-hopers.

Classical events will feature the best DPs of the day (compact minimalist devices) conjoined with holographic images of mighty grand pianos designed by artists responsible for the production of extreme spectacle.

Can't wait.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Banzai_Ed #2356451 11/30/14 07:32 AM
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Please note that the OP hasn't contributed further since posting their completely absurd comments.


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Re: My prediction, Your thought
Lester Burnham #2356458 11/30/14 08:01 AM
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"Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here."

I guess without this attitude we`d never get to see any vintage cars or trains . . . but I wonder if the Concert Hall is the prerogative of the Acoustic because the manufacturers pay to retain this privilege . . . I remember Broitish motorbike manufacturers saying the Japs (!) are OK with little m/bs but can`t manahe big ones . . . then along came . . . along came Joe. On his Honda Four!


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Re: My prediction, Your thought
peterws #2356462 11/30/14 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
"Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here."

I guess without this attitude we`d never get to see any vintage cars or trains . . . but I wonder if the Concert Hall is the prerogative of the Acoustic because the manufacturers pay to retain this privilege . . . I remember Broitish motorbike manufacturers saying the Japs (!) are OK with little m/bs but can`t manahe big ones . . . then along came . . . along came Joe. On his Honda Four!

I'm not really feeling the - but for the grace of those who revere dogma and tradition, we'd never have any...

There will always be enthusiasts who prefer older / retro / vintage / "classic" - there's nothing wrong with that, nor appreciation. Nor does everything need dumbing down for the masses.

All the same, education can't stand still, stand on it's laurels, or dig it's head in the metaphorical sand. Different if you're training to be a concert pianist, or following the conservatory discipline - but out of all the people who learn to play the piano, the entire industry shouldn't be defined by a very narrow segment, that most people won't ever get anything near.

Most of the teachers, that I've encountered, who won't have anything to do with digitals, aren't doing so on merit. They don't regularly keep themselves appraised and updated with the characterisitics and capabilities of contemporary digital pianos - they have some fixed notion in their heads, buried due to faith in dogma and tradition that they are, and always will be inferior, and are therefore not worthy of consideration - ever. I wouldn't mind, but the sorts of teachers we're talking about are your fairly normal piano teachers, who teach a wide variety of people, for a variety of different reasons, the vast majority will never trouble the elite.

Now as I said, that's not damning the whole profession - there are plenty of more pragmatic piano teachers, that don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and are more than happy to teach students that have competent digitals to practice on - it's just the teachers that aren't, are never likely to be. And that's not because they're better, or teach to a higher level, necessarily - merely because they've got fixed ideas they're never about to change.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
Lester Burnham #2356465 11/30/14 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham

Thing is - with my experience of teachers, that's not going to happen for a good proportion of teachers, purely based on merit.

There are some that would never concede to a digital, no matter how good, represntative or valid - and they've probably never played on one, nor have any intention of.

Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here.


Photographers, who had an even quicker and more brutal transition to digital over the course of less than five years soon after the millennium, do not share the same conservatism do they? (this is a real question, though I guess the answer's No.

There's still a place for chemical based photography, of course, but it's becoming a curiosity of enthusiasts.

diretonic, I really appreciate sci-fi visions of the future, and I liked yours, but it really gave me the jitters. Perhaps I'd rather be the dogmatic old toad of a music teacher than face that!


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Re: My prediction, Your thought
Lester Burnham #2356469 11/30/14 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Thing is - with my experience of teachers, that's not going to happen for a good proportion of teachers, purely based on merit.

There are some that would never concede to a digital, no matter how good, represntative or valid - and they've probably never played on one, nor have any intention of.

Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here.

When we get to the point that in blind tests of performances the differences become imperceptible - or the DPs sound even better (gasp!), those who are honest will be forced to face the nature of their bias.

Re: My prediction, Your thought
MeghanM #2356470 11/30/14 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MeghanM
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Thing is - with my experience of teachers, that's not going to happen for a good proportion of teachers, purely based on merit.

There are some that would never concede to a digital, no matter how good, represntative or valid - and they've probably never played on one, nor have any intention of.

Now that's not all of them - I'm not damning an entire profession - just there's a good proportion who'd never consider it. Tradition and dogma have more than a foothold, here.

When we get to the point that in blind tests of performances the differences become imperceptible - or the DPs sound even better (gasp!), those who are honest will be forced to face the nature of their bias.

We may be some time off parity.

I guess my point was more in reponse to another posters comments on what teachers are happy with.

I don't think anybody is trying to assert that digitals are currently as good as expensive / decent acoustic pianos. But where students are concerned, are they good enough to provide a decent instrument for practice - and bearing in mind, the comments I often hear being made of teachers not being happy about digitals - we're not talking about students troubling the higher end of proficiency - we're talking about students who are relatively new to the piano.

Clearly if a pianist's goal is to be a conservatory pianist or concert pianist, then a decent grand makes all the sense in the world. But what sort of proportion of pianists have those goals - whether realistic, or otherwise?

Re: My prediction, Your thought
navyasw02 #2356520 11/30/14 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by navyasw02
I'm going to be honest here and say the Kawai MP11 has made me completely rethink digital pianos. I had a Yamaha Clavinova that I bought and it was good 12+ years ago when I got it, but I hated it after a few months. Between the action and the artificiality of the sounds, I couldn't stand it. Fast forward to now, I cant get enough of the MP11 and I would be tempted to get rid of my Steinway upright and replace it with this. What's in store another dozen years from now? Probably something even more amazing.

I think a serious concert hall in a decade could replace an acoustic with a digital and just run the sound through the hall's speakers. They mic instruments anyway, I'm sure this would be easier and cheaper.


You are incorrect when you said that the sound could just as well be run through the halls speakers.

Direct sound from the concert grand is picked up in stereo meaning that we perceive the sound coming from the piano. This would not be the case if the sound came from stage side or audience side speakers.

The fall off with distance of acoustic energy is completely different from sound pressure coming from a piano than from a speaker. A concert audience hears the acoustic piano sound pressure from a multitude of angles and in proportion to their seat distance from the piano. This does not happen in the same way from speakers that are very directional.

If the sound was amplified just who would decide on and set the volume level? The concert grand can be made to whisper or create tremendous 105db sound pressure that both the performing artist can hear, and the audience sitting anywhere can hear, with clarity and focus. Not so with a digital piano and amplified sound with its inherent amplifier and speaker distortion.

On Wednesday of this week I shall be in a concert hall listening to Shostakovich Piano Concerto #1. I shall be very disappointed if when I sit down I have to listen to an amplified digital piano instead of a Steinway Model D264 or equivalent acoustic.

Ian


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Re: My prediction, Your thought
bennevis #2356526 11/30/14 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Scott Hamlin
Originally Posted by maurus
@Scott Hamlin: The woman in that first video is not even playing the violin. She is just posing with it.



Just because it's a music video doesn't mean she is just "posing". The lady can play! Yuki Ke has does a lot of classical work on the electric violin. Yes classical artists DO use electric instruments.


It depends on what you mean by 'classical artists'.......

No classical violinist, violist, cellist, double-bassist, woodwind player, brass player, percussionist - or even singer grin - who play classical music seriously use 'electric instruments'.


Actually, it depends on what YOU mean by "seriously". I mean these are indeed artists who are indeed playing classical music, so the only thing left to define is the term "seriously".
grin

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