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Well how about this-
instead of the toilet plunger/shank being somehow threaded- (someone- not me- might be able to make a killing selling threaded shanks and a metric tap for the hammer butt and hammer heads)
but another idea might simply to glue a threaded composite end onto each end of the wood shaft- if we can't have an entire composite one anyway
and screw those into the butt and hammer. Then the butts and hammers could be either material- wood or composite
Wouldn't you like to be able to change the shanks and hammer heads more easily?
Maybe not as often as you flush your toilet, but more viable technology-
glue just seems so primitive after working with fine technology otherwise.
Last edited by harpon; 11/24/14 11:31 PM.
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Harpon, I know you're trying to approach this from a common sense perspective, but your lack of knowledge about the construction of pianos (and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, just simply that you don't seem to be aware of it) is perhaps giving you a false sense of clarity on the problem.
Shanks threaded on both ends won't work because you have to customize the length of the shank to fit the scale design and strike point of each piano - and there is a huge amount of variance in shank length due to the differences in size, scale and action design between pianos. Threaded grand shanks won't work because you have to trim down the length of a 'blank' shank to get the hammer to the correct strike point. I suppose you could thread one end of an upright shank, but you run into the same problem - you have to trim down the other end of the shank to get the hammer to the correct strike point. And since there's such a variance in strike point between pianos, you can't expect supply houses to produce shanks in the myriad of precise lengths necessary to satisfy all the different strike points/action designs out there.
Threaded hammers bring another issue. Notice how the hammers in the bass section sit at a pretty severe angle compared to the relatively straight hammers in the midrange/treble? That angle isn't standardized across brands either, and depends on case size and scale design. It will also gradually change as you work your way down the tenor and into the bass.
So yes, it would be nice if we could change hammers and shanks as easily as light bulbs, but there's more complexity to it than you're giving consideration to.
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT Piano Technician, University of Nebraska-Lincoln ASB Piano Service
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The nylon screw could be a good idea. Not to lock the parts into place, per se, but to expand the [slit] tubes against the circumference of the hole. There is a lot vibration going on, so they would need to stay in place without loosening. Because of the backcheck, the screws would need to be adjustable without a head (i.e., from within the core).
Hammers get lighter with age; as the felt is reshaped to minimise string grooves/ware, hammer weight it lost. It would be incredibly awesome if a technician could grab a new shank to match the new mass situation and simply screw it in.
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How toxic are these parts really?!? Is it a matter of wearing a dust mask, and you might be fine, or it is seriously a problem (i.e., like wearing a full respirator/hood)? Is it just the small dust that is a problem (e.g., from sanding)? What about scraping? Can the shanks be scraped without fear of eminent death?
Somehow, there has to be a way to safely make adjustments to the three stiffness of the shank that WNG currently supplies. Three stiffnesses might be economical for the company, but it is not enough to match the variety of hammer masses out there. Any plans of supplying technicians with more stiffness options?
If one desires consistent response between hammers, with a graduated mass hung at a consistent length, then stiffens is the only variable left to be adjusted. If it is not, then the responds will not be consistent with varying masses. <-----that is how that part of the piano system works.
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If you play a horn you can use the rubber plunger part that's left over as an econo-mute! Absolutely indispensable for trombone players! And most useful in tunes such as this: [uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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But seriously folks... Its more so that us, the big, bad, corporate loyalists and consumerist technicians can stick you, the customer, for every sent we can squeeze from you. How else can we afford our expensive Lotus, Lamborghini's, and our homes in the Hamptons, Vienna, and (oh I don't know) Houston (someplace warmer)? We have very expensive lifestyles dontcha ya know. Some of us are such action junkies when there isn't a tuning hammer in our hand that we go skydiving on a regular weekly basis. Plane rides and parachutes don't come cheap, and neither does that lovely gourmet food we must have to perform our best. Fresh Kobe beef flown in daily can't be found at your local grocery store!
[Humor off] At the end of a shank every fraction of a gram is critical. The issue with such a concept isn't that it couldn't be done, its that the extra weight and inertia in the action system makes it heavy, slow, and impractical. Tonal repercussions not relevant when it doesn't play well.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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And what is the sculptured rough surface, at the top of the hammer butt, around the dowel hole? The sculptured rough surface is a pretty important aspect in obtaining a good acoustic fit (i.e., it can be done other ways, but this method has a proven track record of long-term success). The shanks are run through a Hammer Shank Knurler to slightly compress the wood, leaving a smaller surface area on the shank exposed. This allows the shank to be inserted with a tighter-than-normal fit, without pushing all of the glue out of the hole. But, there is more going on, if the traditional glueing procedure is done properly: the moisture in the glue re-expands this sculptured dent, and the glue helps to stabilise the compressed fibres in place. This works best if the shanks are knurled by the technician in the moment leading-up to the installation--old dents don't pop-back like new ones do.
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The shanks are run through a Hammer Shank Knurler to slightly compress the wood, leaving a smaller surface area on the shank exposed. This allows the shank to be inserted with a tighter-than-normal fit, without pushing all of the glue out of the hole. But, there is more going on, if the traditional glueing procedure is done properly: the moisture in the glue re-expands this sculptured dent, and the glue helps to stabilise the compressed fibres in place. This works best if the shanks are knurled by the technician in the moment leading-up to the installation--old dents don't pop-back like new ones do. Generally, I prefer not to knurl new shank ends, and with some shank types I feel is unnecessary excess work. This is the great benefit to having a varying range in drill bit sizes for boring out hammers. When referring to dent's do you mean the resulting knurling pattern left behind?
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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But seriously folks... Its more so that us, the big, bad, corporate loyalists and consumerist technicians can stick you, the customer, for every sent we can squeeze from you. How else can we afford our expensive Lotus, Lamborghini's, and our homes in the Hamptons, Vienna, and (oh I don't know) Houston (someplace warmer)? We have very expensive lifestyles dontcha ya know. Some of us are such action junkies when there isn't a tuning hammer in our hand that we go skydiving on a regular weekly basis. Plane rides and parachutes don't come cheap, and neither does that lovely gourmet food we must have to perform our best. Fresh Kobe beef flown in daily can't be found at your local grocery store!
[Humor off] At the end of a shank every fraction of a gram is critical. The issue with such a concept isn't that it couldn't be done, its that the extra weight and inertia in the action system makes it heavy, slow, and impractical. Tonal repercussions not relevant when it doesn't play well. Frankly, I watch that video of the tech cracking old hammer heads to get them off, and I don't think of "modern corporate loyalists" so much as a village smithy, avoiding horse farts in the process of un-shoeing some candidate for the shank glue factory. This whole piano thing does seem to have an emphasis on big grands and money, not withstanding other considerations of your lifestyles. And the times are a changing. Something better than glueing this stuff surely COULD be done, and you want to make a mountain of excuse out of a molehill of the logistics of implementation. Maybe eastern Florida has more of a can do attitude than those of Houston, who always seem to have a problem. BOOM! It's warmer here, but personally I live down the street from a garbage truck facility and old old technology rumbles me much of the day and night. Just because you know pianos, and you probably do, doesn't give you a lock genius on design, because that largely may involve new concepts and technology outside the scope of your own expertise. What' s stopping a sufficient length of threading on the shaft, whether on both ends of an upright, or the hammer end of a grand? (I think I see room on the butt for a male stud though.) Whether a system to set the length on the threading finally uses a nylon or alloy lock nut, a small set screw or just plain locktight that holds not as firmly as glue. These threads could be very fine, lots of threads per inch, to make length adjustment both simple and micro-millimeter in precision. You're skepticism about every fraction of a gram being crucial is not that convincing here, but even considering it, it's undoubtedly within the scope of the very nature and range of composite materials and perhaps considering different cores to achieve whatever weight and balance is desired, threading or no threading. Perhaps something even better sound wise could come of it, or something different, greatly acceptable and more practical. They'll always be considerations for techs otherwise. Wouldn't a world of MORE pianos that LAST LONGER be as good for business? That's my own interest, in my own humble bicycle mechanic way. "Come fly with me, come fly." - the Flying Ladies
Last edited by harpon; 11/25/14 07:39 PM.
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This whole piano thing does seem to have an emphasis on big grands and money, not withstanding other considerations of your lifestyles. And the times are a changing.
To which "things" are you referring? For the majority of working technicians the regular day usually consists of average to poorly maintained uprights of varying vintages and quality, not big expensive concert instruments. Maybe eastern Florida has more of a can do attitude than those of Houston, who always seem to have a problem. BOOM!
What does Florida or Houston have to do with anything? Just because you know pianos, and you probably do, doesn't give you a lock genius on design, because that largely may involve new concepts and technology outside the scope of your own expertise.
Perhaps, but understanding the form and function of a system is imperative in considering new design. I wouldn't dare tell Boeing how to improve a plane design with no education or experience in the subject. What' s stopping a sufficient length of threading on the shaft, whether on both ends of an upright, or the hammer end of a grand?
It works on handbells, and what's good enough for them should be good enough for a piano, right? As I mentioned before, feel free to have a go at it yourself and get some endorsements. If you have the money maker you think you do, you better rush to the patent office to ward off the other money grubbing technicians. Whether a system to set the length on the threading finally uses a nylon or alloy lock nut, a small set screw or just plain locktight that holds not as firmly as glue. These threads could be very fine, lots of threads per inch, to make length adjustment both simple and micro-millimeter in precision.
And I'll bet right now twice as long in time to deal with. You're skepticism about every fraction of a gram being crucial is not that convincing here, but even considering it, it's undoubtedly within the scope of the very nature and range of composite materials and perhaps considering different cores to achieve whatever weight and balance is desired, threading or no threading.
With all due respect, your comment here demonstrates a certain ignorance of a piano action, how it is designed, how it functions, and the role of weight and the balance necessary in the action spread, its geometry, and resulting touch weight profile. No one is dismissing the role of composite materials as they are already in use. You seem to be deviating from your original argument of advocating a threading system to shanks and hammers. Perhaps something even better sound wise could come of it, or something different, greatly acceptable and more practical.
With losing weight and lessening inertia, yes. Adding weight, definitely not. Wouldn't a world of MORE pianos that LAST LONGER be as good for business?
Not if people can't afford them to begin with. In this day and age when a mediocre Asian production instrument with a price tag of $17,000 is considered too much for the average working joe, I can't see the market bearing the increased production cost of frivolous action design that does little in the way of improved action response or tone production. Aside from custom builders looking for a gimmick, the idea of threaded hammers and shanks, to me, seems like it would only benefit those trying to do work they neither have the experience or education to pull off using currently available materials, tools, and techniques. Again, feel free to have a go at it yourself... I don't mind being proven wrong.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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There are none so blind as though who will not see. You prefer arguments to ideas I guess.
maybe your degrees should be in closed mindedness. And soooo long ago, Whippersnapper shank!
Ever hear of mass production? Mass production of parts made from other materials should only increase production and lower prices. Gonna put your whittling out of business, Uncle Jed?
"the idea of threaded hammers and shanks, to me, seems like it would only benefit those trying to do work they neither have the experience or education to pull off using currently available materials, tools, and techniques."
You really flag your retro-minded attitude here. The whole point IS to make changing hammers and shanks of possibly varied weights much easier, without a wood shop and recumbent retro S&M wood shed. But you are only worried that others will not want you to glue the shoes on their horse.
I suspect prices are high partly because of this increasingly tiered social atmosphere these days, and which brims from your post, and squarely puts you on the exalted "S" side of your S&M equations.
Your use of the whole money grubbing tech concept is purely your own and inappropriate directed at me. No I will not be running off to any patent offices, but someone else could. GOOD - go bless us all and free us from Gluey Gluey. I'm just putting ideas out on the table, I'm sure they've been thought of by others, and I'll bet many will come to pass.
Fly me to the moon Mr. Boeing. SCARCELY!
Last edited by harpon; 11/26/14 06:14 AM.
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harpon, the troll is attempting to take swings at other people, and you're choosing to take the hit. What the troll does not know first-hand, the troll does not know--hence all the bashing with nothing being said. Trolls are very slow witted creatures: they learn their lessons through time, sustained repetition, and the grace of others.
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(I think I see room on the butt for a male stud though.)
Interesting.HW
"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment." -Lao Tzu
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[humorous]...that's awesome!
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You really flag your retro-minded attitude here. The whole point IS to make changing hammers and shanks of possibly varied weights much easier, without a wood shop and recumbent retro S&M wood shed. But you are only worried that others will not want you to glue the shoes on their horse.
I suspect prices are high partly because of this increasingly tiered social atmosphere these days, and which brims from your post, and squarely puts you on the exalted "S" side of your S&M equations.
I have no problems whatsoever hanging hammers and shanks in the traditional manner. I can't think of any work that gets much simpler, other than tuning perhaps.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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harpon, the troll is attempting to take swings at other people, and you're choosing to take the hit. What the troll does not know first-hand, the troll does not know--hence all the bashing with nothing being said. Trolls are very slow witted creatures: they learn their lessons through time, sustained repetition, and the grace of others. I'm told that walking on thin ice without a life jacket very dangerous. Or is that jumping out of a plane without a parachute? I forget. And I find that composite shanks are wonderful... (so as to remain on topic)
Last edited by SMHaley; 11/26/14 05:38 PM. Reason: added clarity
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
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Hey troll...[thump, thump, thump]...there's evidence--I can assure you: I'm very much on solid ground. Or, as is the case in this thread, at the end of a very stiff shank (i.e., which, indeed, is key to a more powerful punch).
Trolls that don't know first-hand, what they are unable to defend, wind-up breaking their bridges in the end.
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Wouldn't a stiffer shank that carbon fiber could be possibly lead to softer hammers, if indeed that was somehow necessary to compensate for shanks already available in 3 grades of flex (for grands I'm assuming- I'm not pouring over these materials, I'm busy like everyone)
softer hammers that might be more feasible when more easily changed one thing leads to another There might be more range of expressiveness in the hammers with such a system
and I'll talk about my "crude" experiences in the world of bicycles again (Oh the irony of the use of that word "crude") I mentioned ISO- International Standards of Something that starts with O
when I started riding bikes in the late 60's and you wanted a bottom bracket or headset, you had to specify if the frame took French, Italian or British threads It was like they were all still bickering after the Great War somehow
and that was until about 1990 I think when they all got together worldwide and decided to go with the English thread on all the bikes afterwards.
It makes things easier and kept prices down, unless one is into vintage bike of before that time- most of which were NOT English threaded.
Anyway, I think the idea of standardization of actions might be a great idea and facilitate the use of other designs and materials without worrying over lengths of warp prone wood.
So you may have standard lengths and designs for a more universal action for spinets, then for consoles, and then studios and so forth.
I'm not really talking about servicing or restoration I suppose as about new pianos and designs. There would still be leeway incorporated into the design to accommodate personal choices about angles and weights etc. In fact such a system might facilitate that very notion, not remove it.
They're just abstract ideas here. I'd like to put some new hammers on the old Baldwin, but they're not only too expensive and generally unavailable
I'm personally intimidated by having to separate old and fragile wooden pieces- that don't seem to have the level of uniform consistency I'm used to working with on fine Campagnolo bicycles.
Give me a screw any day!
Last edited by harpon; 11/26/14 07:52 PM.
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Hey troll...[thump, thump, thump]...there's evidence--I can assure you: I'm very much on solid ground. Or, as is the case in this thread, at the end of a very stiff shank (i.e., which, indeed, is key to a more powerful punch).
Trolls that don't know first-hand, what they are unable to defend, wind-up breaking their bridges in the end. To whom are you referring? The RE line would suggest Paul678.
Last edited by SMHaley; 11/26/14 08:58 PM. Reason: clarity
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
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I'm used to working with on fine Campagnolo bicycles. There are no Campagnolo bicycles. There are, of course, bikes equipped with Campagnolo components. HW
Last edited by Herr Weiss; 11/26/14 09:10 PM.
"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment." -Lao Tzu
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