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Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? #2351663
11/17/14 11:09 PM
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Paul678 Offline OP
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https://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/index.php/composite_shanks


Makes sense to me that more flex is less efficient.



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Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351669
11/17/14 11:30 PM
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Hi Paul,
Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice. Piano makers of the past had choices, and even more today. With every human endeavor when there is a mixture of science and art, one doesn't necessarily always prevail over the other.

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351683
11/18/14 12:22 AM
11/18/14 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul678
https://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/index.php/composite_shanks


Makes sense to me that more flex is less efficient.




Note to note voicing is more consistent because the shanks are exactly the same strength. Nearly endless customization options. They seem to require less traveling. Burning them is easier because they stay put. Center pin friction is remarkably consistent. I've never had to re-pin one. On the other hand, I just installed a new set of hammers on a set of one-year-old OEM shanks, on a concert grand, and it was a "genuine" pain in the butt to re-pin nearly every single shank/flange. For me, it's a settled issue. The only thing I'll say is that these carbon shanks need to be paired with a softer hammer (i.e. Ronsen or Isaac). Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: bobgeorge] #2351767
11/18/14 07:47 AM
11/18/14 07:47 AM
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by bobgeorge
Hi Paul,
Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice.


Greetings,
I would take a small degree of issue, here. I suppose it might have to do with the definition of "just fine". Just fine doesn't meant optimum, so the question may be, in pursuit of the optimum action "Is Wood the best? and if so, Why?. Wood was the preferred material for skis, tennis racquets, and golf clubs for most of their history but nobody would consider them if performance was important . In much of my action work, performance trumps anything and everything.

Another point, in the university environment, performance is measured not only in response and evenness, but durability, which is where another huge shortcoming of the wooden parts is evident. The material is not stable, and the pinning is not stable, so their regulations are not, either.

Carbon fiber has changed all of that. And, it is changing piano quality, too. There is no way to build as even an action out of wooden parts, and there is no way that wooden parts are going to stay where you put them, so even the best regulation is only a transient arrangement, more like a gathering of hobos over a train yard fire, only to all be somewhere else tomorrow.
Regards,


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Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: beethoven986] #2351773
11/18/14 08:21 AM
11/18/14 08:21 AM
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by beethoven986


Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.


Really? But do you mean only the shanks?

What about the rest of the action parts?

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Ed Foote] #2351777
11/18/14 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote

Greetings,
I would take a small degree of issue, here. I suppose it might have to do with the definition of "just fine". Just fine doesn't meant optimum, so the question may be, in pursuit of the optimum action "Is Wood the best? and if so, Why?. Wood was the preferred material for skis, tennis racquets, and golf clubs for most of their history but nobody would consider them if performance was important . In much of my action work, performance trumps anything and everything.

Another point, in the university environment, performance is measured not only in response and evenness, but durability, which is where another huge shortcoming of the wooden parts is evident. The material is not stable, and the pinning is not stable, so their regulations are not, either.

Carbon fiber has changed all of that. And, it is changing piano quality, too. There is no way to build as even an action out of wooden parts, and there is no way that wooden parts are going to stay where you put them, so even the best regulation is only a transient arrangement, more like a gathering of hobos over a train yard fire, only to all be somewhere else tomorrow.
Regards,



Boy, there's an analogy I can understand as a Tennis player!

There's no way the top players can win with a wooden racket.

I read about how even teflon bushings, while stable themselves,
are still attached to wood flanges, which are humidity sensitive.

But WNG's website is a great read: Their parts are God's gift
to the piano world! What a surprise they would claim this! ....but is it true?

Anodized aluminum capstans that do not need polishing. Hard bushings with unchanging friction. "German Silver" pins. Synthetic buckskin outlasting the real thing. Etc, etc!

How much of this is just hype, though? Talk is cheap, how is WNG actions in the real world? Or are they still too new to know yet?

And interesting that their pinblocks are still made of
wood!

grin ha

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351817
11/18/14 10:44 AM
11/18/14 10:44 AM
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul678


But WNG's website is a great read: Their parts are God's gift
to the piano world! What a surprise they would claim this! ....but is it true?

Anodized aluminum capstans that do not need polishing. Hard bushings with unchanging friction. "German Silver" pins. Synthetic buckskin outlasting the real thing. Etc, etc!

How much of this is just hype, though? Talk is cheap, how is WNG actions in the real world? Or are they still too new to know yet?

And interesting that their pinblocks are still made of
wood!

grin ha


I don't know about hype, I have several of these composite actions in university practice rooms, where they are being played approx. 60 hours per week, maybe 1,200 hours per semester, by robust piano majors. Over the last three years, I have seen a marked reduction in the amount of service needed. (Due primarily to the lack of warping between seasons, and stable pinning.) That the hammers keep their alignment for life means that the voicing is more accurate, and when it comes time to re-surface, there is little need to completely remove the string grooves. ) another plus for longevity).

So far,they are head and shoulders above the factory's and every other aftermarket supplier I have tried, and I have tried them all in these rooms…

Regards,

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351830
11/18/14 11:21 AM
11/18/14 11:21 AM
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I want one!

Back in 1980, when my piano was made, the road cycling team I was on was sponsored by Exxon, and we were riding Exxon Graftek bikes- the first carbon-fiber bikes.

Always loved fine alloy components- precise.

Last edited by harpon; 11/18/14 11:22 AM.
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351834
11/18/14 11:35 AM
11/18/14 11:35 AM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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My current go-to shank/flange, capstan, and back-check for the last five years is from W,N&G. Presently they are the state of the art for those components. For all the reasons Ed Foote listed above.

The most surprising thing about them I noticed on my first set of shank/flanges was how even the tone and touch is with soft playing.

There is an older PW topic covering them if you want to search for it.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351860
11/18/14 12:26 PM
11/18/14 12:26 PM
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Once the composite shanks can be made so that they are adjustable to the mass of the hammer, then yes. Until then, it is a compromise. Wood, too, is a compromise, but that, at the very least, is adjustable through thinning and stiffening, unlike the composite shanks.

If the question also somehow applies to the pinning: the WNG pinning is superior for the reasons stated above. BUT, that is the compromise technicians are making for being not being able to adjust the response of the shank...until something better comes along.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: bobgeorge] #2351882
11/18/14 01:12 PM
11/18/14 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgeorge
Hi Paul,
Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice. Piano makers of the past had choices, and even more today. With every human endeavor when there is a mixture of science and art, one doesn't necessarily always prevail over the other.


They used cedar shanks almost exclusively in the treble of upright pianos. Never seen one in a grand, though I can't say for sure it was never done.

The question is why did cedar get used? Cedar is lighter, so it was used in the treble area to decrease the mass of the assembly moving toward the strings. This improved tone in the treble. It came at the cost of being very fragile and not lasting long.

WNG shanks have the same weight advantage as the cedar in the treble, as they use progressively thinner wall thickness toward the treble end of the action.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2351913
11/18/14 03:05 PM
11/18/14 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by beethoven986


Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.


Really? But do you mean only the shanks?

What about the rest of the action parts?


Everything, generally speaking.

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: beethoven986] #2351921
11/18/14 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beethoven986
....On the other hand, I just installed a new set of hammers on a set of one-year-old OEM shanks, on a concert grand, and it was a "genuine" pain in the butt to re-pin nearly every single shank/flange.....

Be thankful that you did not also have to rebush them all as well!


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352078
11/18/14 11:01 PM
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A454.7, isn't the mass of the hammer adjustable to a fine tolerance by tapering, coving, curving, removal of felt, etc.? I can control the weight of the hammer to .1 gram. The weight of the shanks is extremely consistent, so it would seem to be more advantageous to control the mass of the hammer. I don't see that there is a loss of control, and the flex remains very consistent from note to note. If you control the mass of the hammer closely and use the WNG shanks, you have built in some consistency and uniformity to the voicing before the voicing needle ever touches the hammer.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352091
11/18/14 11:41 PM
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Yes: the mass of individual hammers are adjustable to very fine tolerances. The problem is: each of those masses also require a certain "flex" in the shank in order to function optimally. Yes: I understand the f-word is a hot-button issue, but I don't know what else to call it.

It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so I call it a duck--maybe it is a goose, I don't know...[shrug]...but, it is f-ing something: that is for sure.

If you whack the top of the hammers with the back of a voicer (i.e., something hard with some weight), while suspending the hammer in the air by the knuckle, you will observe both a tone and the rebound/reaction speeds (i.e., right hand senses the rebound of the whacking tool and the left hand the rebound of the hammer). There will be a zone of stiffness where everything seem to work perfectly--stiffer and weaker from that "magical zone of awesome,' and the hammer response feels and even sounds sluggish; this zone changes based on the overall mass of the hammer+shank.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: A454.7] #2352101
11/18/14 11:57 PM
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So, 443, are you saying your hammer weights are not graduated, but determined tonally for each note...thus the need to tune each shank?

I don't usually test wooden shank pitch test, but decided to compare two current actions with carefully graduated hammer weights...one WNG CF and one Tokiwa. Tapping the shank as you and Olek do, I was astounded that, given the carefully graduated hammer weights, the pitch of the CF was strikingly smooth and consistent.

The wood shanks, same graduated hammer mass, were all over the place.

Jim Ialeggio


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Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352103
11/19/14 12:04 AM
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Ok, so it looks like WNG is the superior action these days.

But from here:

http://www.precisionpianoservices.com/rates.htm#compositeparts

"Early use of plastic in piano actions from the 1930's and 1940's resulted in horrible degradation of the materials, to a point where they simply disintegrated when handled. This was caused by a basic lack of knowledge about the characteristics of the materials at that point in history. It rendered many pianos, mostly spinets and small uprights, completely useless, and not worth repairing. This has also resulted in giving plastics and composites a “bad-rep” in the piano industry."

So given that "composites" is a euphemism for "plastic", what is different about the plastics that WNG uses versus what was tried in the 30's and 40's? That website states that the WNG actions were introduced in 2008, so it's only been 6 years. Isn't it still too early to know whether or not these actions will also disintegrate with time?

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352114
11/19/14 12:17 AM
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jim ialeggio, I do lots of samples. When I am basically where I want to be tonally in terms of weight and strike point shape, I then graduate both.

Tuning the shanks is a different issue, that I don't have down to a predictable science...yet. Right now, I am just aiming for the zone (i.e., sometimes is a hit, other times it is a miss).

The tone of the shank is "something," but my gut tells me it is an indicator of something else that is going on (i.e., probably the flex).

It is good to know about your observations re: smooth pitch of the CF. How about the hammer rebound response (i.e., as felt at the knuckle, etc.)? There might even be a way to adjust this with the CF...I don't know...


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352115
11/19/14 12:18 AM
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Materials science and the chemistry of "Plastic" has come a long way since the 40s. If you don't think so, then I would not recommend getting on a commercial airliner ever again. ;-}

Kawai has been using composites in their actions for 25-30+ years now.

Do you play golf, tennis, row a racing shell, ride a bike, etc? All these sports depend on composites. Time for the piano to make it into the 20th century instead of being stuck in the 19th century.

People using the "plastics are bad" sales pitch are selling old technology. Not that it is a bad piano, but how much better could it be if design and material came a few decades forward.


Dale Fox
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Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352117
11/19/14 12:23 AM
11/19/14 12:23 AM
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I believe Most of the material used is a fiber reinforced nylon with the shank itself a longitudinal carbon fiber in epoxy matrix tube. These material have been used widely for at least three decades in various types of machines and structures in all sorts of environments.

You could inquire directly to W,N&G and I am sure they would give you all the information needed.

Every real advance in piano construction has been materials driven.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: bobgeorge] #2352133
11/19/14 12:59 AM
11/19/14 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bobgeorge
Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so.


NO, they haven't.

They have been all we have had, but they definitely have not been "fine". They have been recognized as a large contributor to piano maintenance issues and much of our technical work has been dealing with their instability and erratic performance. The reason for other attempts along the way is because traditional components have long been recognized as having serviceability and performance issues.

So far no one has been able to list a single design/performance criterion where wood is superior to modern synthetics.




Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352139
11/19/14 01:09 AM
11/19/14 01:09 AM
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One bit of interesting news was that the latest e-news I received from Brooks LTD says they are now offering their prehung hammers on WNG shanks and flanges. If the cost is not much more than wood parts, I have a G5 at a college thats due for new HS&F that I would love to try them on.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352168
11/19/14 03:32 AM
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Wooden shanks are no picnic, I had a Hallet and Davis from the 1890's that would break shanks on a consistent basis.

Older plastic materials were not well characterized for service in pianos. Those without composite materials tended to creep with time. There were plenty of horror stories with teflon parts in the '60's, that don't bear repeating.

Carbon fiber composites have been used with great success since the '70's in a lot of difficult environments. The main issue is consistant quality, which is nearly impossible to get in wood.


Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352204
11/19/14 08:43 AM
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I have been using WNG parts and like the evenness of touch. I am not a pianist and have had the opportunity to talk with high level pianists about the shank in particular. Kiril Gerstein is very uncomfortable with the shank because it is not flexible. When he mentioned it I can now feel what he is talking about. He does not have a problem with the other parts, but it is the wipping action of the shank that helps him produce the tone.

He also understands the need for schools to reduce maintenance and the shanks have their place, but he feels any school that is preparing pianists for serious concertizing should not use WNG shanks on the pianos those students use.

Tim Coates


Tim Coates
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Tim Coates] #2352216
11/19/14 09:40 AM
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Tennessee
Originally Posted by Tim Coates
Kiril Gerstein is very uncomfortable with the shank because it is not flexible. When he mentioned it I can now feel what he is talking about. He does not have a problem with the other parts, but it is the wipping action of the shank that helps him produce the tone.
Tim Coates


Greetings,
This is an interesting observation, and begs a question. The whipping action of the shanks that helps him "produce tone" is not consistent, either in any given piano or between pianos, so which degree of whipping is he talking about being desired? The WNG shanks do have flex, and their flex is not necessarily different from the stiffest shanks one is likely to encounter.( they come in a variety of thicknesses). Soo,,,, what is he talking about, that alll WNG shanks are stiffer than any of the wooden ones? That he needs that inconsistency to produce a controllable tone? Seems a lapse of logic.

Also, the flex in the shank is virtually nonexistent on soft to middling force playing, so is the difference he is noting happening in the all-out FFF moments? And that is where he is concerned with producing tone out of wildly varying shank response,(which is common at the forceful extremes)? I don't usually think in terms of "tone" when I hear the piano hit as heavily as possible, by then I am thinking power and force, which the composite shanks seem to deliver in full measure.
Regards,

Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Ed Foote] #2352221
11/19/14 09:59 AM
11/19/14 09:59 AM
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harpon Offline
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Aren't grand pianos perhaps favored over uprights because of their stronger shanks?

[Linked Image]

I'm no great pianist either, but any issue of flex and weight and mass would still be very "flexible" in scope itself-

simply by opening up design- in fact the eventual outcome of a shift may bring the flexibility to choose differing shanks , and so the market could see a wide variety offered-

if they are threaded, they could be changed very easily-

and the range of material - and it's mass and weight- is itself almost endless in choice-

the discussion is mostly about carbon fiber- fiberglass wrapped around an alloy tube- the size of the internal wrappings, the shapes and the thickness of the fiber wrap present a wide variety of choice-

there is also alloy tubing- where all grades between pure steel and lightest weights aluminum and titanium could see a variety of use all through a much lighter piano-

think of the difference between a wooden softball bat and an aluminum one.

and a lighter weight piano that's more maintenance free could in fact rejuvenate piano sales I think more than people might expect

opportunities to service a greater number of PRACTICAL pianos with a choice of internal workings might in fact be greater than you can now foresee.

Last edited by harpon; 11/19/14 10:18 AM.
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352264
11/19/14 12:08 PM
11/19/14 12:08 PM
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The whipping action of the shank on hard blows is not the only "flex" that is happening in the system!!! It is very possible that this one observation has little or no influence on the tone or performance of the piano. This is all I ever read technicians debating on the issue (i.e., a kind of stored energy, golf club-like, situation). Why?!? That is not all that is going on in the system...

In science, what is being observed matters. Piano technicians have a bad habit of picking-and-choosing observations that they think matters most.

[whack]...the other "flex" happens during the moments of impact. This, in all likelihood, is the flex that matters the most. This flex has a direct impact on rebound speed at ALL dynamic levels--it is something that a technician can easily learn to feel by impacting the top of the hammer. Clearly, it is also something that pianists too can sense--it is not something that only happens on hard blows.

In addition to more consistent--and fractionally faster rebound times (i.e., which may or may not matter to the sound, depending on the register)--the pianist is most likely perceiving a more consistent 'thump' timing as the hammer goes into check (i.e., with a properly matched 'flexibility' to the shank). AND/OR, the pianist may be perceiving the check more rigidly because there is not enough flex in the shank (i.e., like the first kind of flex). Whatever the case may be, it is--so it must be acknowledged as something, and not discounted entirely because it does not fit well with one's own version of piano reality.

Whether or not that 'something' really matters in any given situation, then, can be debated--and then hopefully a balance found.

Nothing I write about on this topic, BTW, is meant to discount the CF shanks, or the concept. It is, at the moment, a compromise: because the flex is not adjustable to meet the mass requirement of the individual hammers. As soon as there are 100+ different stiffness to choose from and install, then THAT would be a complete game changer, IMHO.

Just to be clear: I am not saying, in any way, that wood is better or preferred. I am only saying I know how to adjust the wood, and I don't know how to adjust the CF material. With wood, one can easily weaken, and if taken too far, stiffen it back up with a shellac/glue.

Maybe a technician can play around with thinning/weakening the shanks to match the mass. It might be possible--I don't know, I haven't done it. Maybe a lathe and sandpaper?!? Probably messy, but it could work..


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352284
11/19/14 01:05 PM
11/19/14 01:05 PM
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If sometime one finds a synthetic material that can replace the natural wool on hammer heads (with all its parameter complexity that influence the TONE), i may believe that a synthetic material can replace the wooden hammer shank (with all its parameter complexity that influence the TONE) as part of the integral hammer tone production assembly. Did not happen so far for me.

Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 11/19/14 01:07 PM.
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352286
11/19/14 01:12 PM
11/19/14 01:12 PM
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Quote
Kiril Gerstein is very uncomfortable with the shank because it is not flexible. When he mentioned it I can now feel what he is talking about. He does not have a problem with the other parts, but it is the wipping action of the shank that helps him produce the tone.


I wonder how much of this is placebo effect. Some people (myself included) tend to have a bias towards "traditional" materials. It's almost a religious attitude towards wood, and "natural" materials like felt and hide glue. It reminds me of the ETD vs Aural argument. If the player "believes" that the wood parts are superior it may cause him to think that it sounds better regardless of the reality.

I'm with Mr Foote on this one - I'm skeptical at how better uniformity of stiffness can detract from the player's ability to produce ideal tone.

A double blind study would be interesting!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Are Composite Shanks really Better than Wooden ones? [Re: Paul678] #2352295
11/19/14 01:28 PM
11/19/14 01:28 PM
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Kiril Girstein is not correct to say that the shanks are not flexible. They are. Watch the videos on the website and you will see that the shank flexes after the hammer strikes the string. Whether they are stiffer on average than the wood shanks he is used to is a reasonable question. Whatever stiffness they are, they are more consistent.

Since WNG sells three shanks where the only difference between them is the thickness of the wall of the carbon tube, the issue of stiffness can be addressed by the substitution of a CF shank with a thinner wall. I believe that WNG does not make their CF tubes, but purchase them from a supplier whose business is to make CF tubes. I wonder how many thicknesses they sell for the size tubes that WNG uses.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
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