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Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234743
02/14/04 02:00 PM
02/14/04 02:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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UK
I'm in the trade (buying/selling restored/unrestored Steinways/Bechsteins in the UK) and have just got hold of a Steinway Model B that I intend to have restored. It is mahogany from the 1890s with 85 notes and is currently french polished.

The veneer is still OK and won't need replacing but I'm trying to decide whether to have the case French Polished or Polyestered (not sure what you call that in the states, maybe high gloss or lacquer??).

I'm actually leaning towards French Polish just because it would be a shame to "hide" that lovely wood finish underneath all that lacquer.

Does anyone here have enough experience to say which finish most customers would prefer a mahogany Steinway to have?

Polyester makes people say "wow, that's shiny" but French Polish somehow seems to have more dignity and character.

any input appreciated
thanks
Mark

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Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234744
02/14/04 03:36 PM
02/14/04 03:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,957
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
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Keith D Kerman Offline
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Whichever you choose, your next customer will prefer the other.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
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keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234745
02/14/04 04:06 PM
02/14/04 04:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,759
Coxsackie, New York
David Burton Offline
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Coxsackie, New York
For all those who claim to prefer French polish to any other finish, I feel it fair to remind them and everyone else that it is far more expensive to do than any other (imagine a 6'10" grand piano being hand rubbed in this manner, a fortune!) and is far less durable than polyester which is why that finish exists. The best alternative is to attempt a satin finish using polyester, the best of both worlds; a water tight finish and one that shows the figurations of the wood underneath in enough depth. For economic reasons, you will probably have to go with what the original finish is (not polyester) and work with it to make it look as new as you can.

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234746
02/14/04 04:16 PM
02/14/04 04:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,957
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
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Keith D Kerman Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
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The polyester satin finishes over a natural wood grain that I have seen have been 'milky'. These were done by companies whose high polish polyester finishes are stunning. Pleyel had a stunning satin burled poplar finish at the NAMM show, by far the best satin wood finish I have seen from a European manufacturer. I can't now remember if it was rubbed out, or just sprayed. When I asked, the Pleyel rep told me it was lacquer.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out http://sitkadoc.com/
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234747
02/14/04 04:57 PM
02/14/04 04:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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Posts: 491
UK
thanks everyone,

COST
Cost might not really be an issue as the case restorers I use charge similar prices for french polish as they do for polyester

DURABILITY
Is durability really an issue if the piano is likely to be sold to a private individual? If nothing more than music books and pencils will ever touch the piano, isn't french polish durable enough? An expensive piano will naturally command a lot of respect and so is unlikely to be mistreated

WOW FACTOR
Does French Polish cut it in this respect?

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234748
02/14/04 05:31 PM
02/14/04 05:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,895
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Actually, since French polish can be repaired more easily and better than polyester, it can last longer than polyester, just like an acoustic piano can be cheaper than a digital piano that costs less because the acoustic can be repaired when a digital may need to be replaced.


Semipro Tech
Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234749
02/14/04 05:39 PM
02/14/04 05:39 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,185
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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Posts: 11,185
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Keith,

The blush tends to happen because once the poly is on, it is ON! It doesn't breathe at all and anything under it (like moisture) can seep through. Add to that the fact that poly is thicker than any other finish and the result can be a gray looking clear coat satin. (Not like the blush I think you are referring to)

We have had success with satin polys that come out very nicely with little to no graying. I'd enjoy buying you dinner one night and showinf them to you.

Your friend,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for great content every week:
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Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234750
02/14/04 10:28 PM
02/14/04 10:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
If that dinner invite was to me that's very kind of you but I'm in the UK. But perhaps you are talking to Keith. Thanks for the info/opinion though, I appreciate it.

BDB, you make a good point about false economies. Food for thought definately.

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234751
02/15/04 08:39 AM
02/15/04 08:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 894
Virginia
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fmelliott Offline
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Virginia
Dear Yonnermark,

I am a furniture restorer who owns a polyester finished piano and a house full of antique furniture with hand rubbed finishes.

I dislike polyester finishes and wish my piano was a french polished wood finish and not shiny black. It is a refinished turn of the century Ibach. Tiny unintentioned scratches form under feather dusters on my piano. A good sized chuck came off a leg as it was moved. Poluester seems pretty delicate to me.

An antique piece should be finished in the way that was proper and appropriate to its time period. Fortunately you can afford to do it right.

I went to a friend's house. She has has a 1930's Steinway with and an old fashioned finish. It had sctatches and white rings all over it. With a bottle of patent finish restorer and some fine steel wool I had the piano looking better than it had in years. There were no white rings left and the nail scratched fall board looke quite respectable.

I think an easily restorable finish is wonderful. Shellac works back with just a pad and some alcohol. You would not believe the ugly blackened finishes of 170 years or more I have thinned and saved with just alcohol.

Best wishes

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234752
02/15/04 09:45 AM
02/15/04 09:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
thanks for the info
very useful and reassuring smile
Mark

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234753
02/15/04 05:38 PM
02/15/04 05:38 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 21
Klagenfurt Austria
A
AlexJBS Offline
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Klagenfurt Austria
Hello,

For this piano I would absolute prefer and do the finish in the way of its production period, and not polyester !!

Best Wishes
Alexander Langer

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234754
02/15/04 06:20 PM
02/15/04 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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UK
Sounds good to me wink

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234755
02/15/04 08:29 PM
02/15/04 08:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
phykell Offline
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phykell  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
yonnermark

My own 1919 Steinway D was recently completed in French Polished rosewood. When I was considering what finish to go for, I knew the original finish was French Polish but everyone I spoke to tried to steer me towards either ebonising the entire instrument, losing the rosewood entirely (as there was what seemed to be no small amount of damage to the veneer), or refinishing in polyester or some other modern finish. I happen to have had some experience French Polishing a mahoghany guitar from years ago and from the pieces of antique furniture I've seen, I know that French Polish is a fantastic finish. It's very different to modern finishes as rather than being just a coat of gloss over the wood, it really appears as if it's the wood itself which is polished. It's difficult to explain, but modern finishes look as though they've been applied "over" the veneer so that the piano can look as though it's simply beenn "dipped" into the polyester. This might suit modern pianos, and I really do think an ebonised concert grand in a modern high gloss finish is a beautiful thing, however, I had a suspicion that a piano the age of mine wouldn't really suit the modern finish, and of course the rosewood veneer was really too beautiful to lose to simple ebonising job even though my preference is actually for a black piano! A French Polish finish has a certain lustre to it which modern finishes don't. Again it's difficult to explain really and until I saw my own piano, I wasn't really sure whether the effort would in fact be worth it. How wrong I was, the finish is stunning and is every bit as good as I hoped it would be and more. I absolutely made the right decisions not to have it ebonised and not to resort to a modern finish.

As for durability, I've heard all sorts of opinions on this including that modern finishes are far more resilient, etc. but I would contend that whereas a FP finish might not take the knocks like a poly at least the FP finish can be repaired relatively easily. A skilled French Polisher can easily repair all but the most serious damage to an FP finish so that you can't tell there ever was any damage and tired finishes can be "refreshed" with new coats of shellac applied in the owner premises conditions permitting.

Cost-wise, it's expensive, there's no getting away from that, but I really do believe the final result is worth. However, while I'm sure anyone who knows of FP finishes would agree that a FP finish is superior in looks for a piano of the age you're looking at refinishing, I'm not so sure most people these days will even know what a FP finish looks like let alone how it compares to a modern finish. I guess it's down to your customers, and you know them better than I do of ocurse. I believe that if you are restoring a truly magnificent older art-case, Steinway or other great make, and you want it to look as close to how it did when it originally left the factory, the original finish is always the best way to go and in that case, if it had a FP finish, then a FP finish it should have.

Here's a pic to give you an idea:

[Linked Image]

HTH smile

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234756
02/15/04 08:43 PM
02/15/04 08:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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Posts: 491
UK
Thanks for that info. I am definately leaning towards FP actually. I agree with your "dipping" comment. Even thought Polyester looks really shiny and impressive, there is definately something that gets lost when you drown the wood in polyester coats.

IF you have any other photos I'd love to see them. Please send to mark[at]smart-pianos.com

thanks again
mark

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234757
02/16/04 08:22 AM
02/16/04 08:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
phykell Offline
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phykell  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
Here's some that I posted some time ago:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Castor.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Fall.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/FrameRear.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/FrontLidDown.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/LegComparison.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/LHS2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Lyre.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/MeAndPiano.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/RHLeg.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/RHSFront.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/RHSFrontAllShut.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/RHSFrontFallShut.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/RHSFrontFallShutCloseUp.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Stool.jpg

And these are the latest ones, now the piano is finished and back in my home:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_Front.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_FrontLidDown.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_FrontLidDown2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_TopCloseUp.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_FrontFullyClosed.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/After_SideFullyClosed.jpg

Nearly forgot, are you sure the one you have is mahoghany? It's just that mine was in such a state that I thought it was mahoghany, and I had to have it pointed out to me that it was actually rosewood! Mahohany is indeed a beautiful wood, but I think rosewood is even more so and some would say the rosewood veneers from decades ago are superior to anything that can possibly be sourced now. In that case, I would suggest that it's definitely worth the extra expense for the FP finish but I would also say that one thing I forgot to mention is the amount of time it can take, which can be from several weeks for a basic finish to many months for a traditional, high-gloss finish plus many months for the shellac to fully harden. I guess this is a lot more important if you're intending to sell the instrument and get your return on it.

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234758
02/16/04 09:00 AM
02/16/04 09:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
yonnermark Offline OP
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yonnermark  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 491
UK
Excellent photos!
thanks again.
I only used my untrained eye to say that is was mahogany but my restorer agreed that it was mahogany too.

thanks again for the info and photos
smile
Mark

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234759
02/16/04 09:05 AM
02/16/04 09:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,343
Dallas, TX
C
ChrisKeys Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,343
Dallas, TX
Quote
Originally posted by phykell:
And these are the latest ones, now the piano is finished and back in my home:
Stunning, absolutely stunning! Thanks for sharing your "after" photos with us. I'm hard-pressed to recall a more beautiful instrument.

Chris

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234760
02/16/04 10:30 AM
02/16/04 10:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 418
Bucharest
Calin Offline
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Calin  Offline
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Posts: 418
Bucharest
Hello Phykell!

How was the damaged veneer repaired on your piano?

Calin

Quote
Originally posted by phykell:
yonnermark

My own 1919 Steinway D was recently completed in French Polished rosewood. When I was considering what finish to go for, I knew the original finish was French Polish but everyone I spoke to tried to steer me towards either ebonising the entire instrument, losing the rosewood entirely (as there was what seemed to be no small amount of damage to the veneer),
...

HTH smile


Calin

The Bechstein piano discussion group: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/bechstein/
The Schweighofer piano site: http://schweighofer.tripod.com
Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234761
02/16/04 12:38 PM
02/16/04 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
phykell Offline
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phykell  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 700
UK
yonnermark, if you're ever in the NW area I'm only in Warrington so you're welcome to drop in and take a look for yourself!

Also, I must say that it's important to note that a FP is more often than not, imperfect when compared to an acrylic. It all depends on the quality of the job you get done of course, but as FP is such an "organic" finish, there may be certain imperfections which may have occurred during the application of the finish or during transit as the shellac can be easy to damage unless fully hardened. My piano is certainly not perfect by any means, but overall the finish is fantastic and my restorer will be coming to do the "500 mile service" soon and we'll then discuss what to do about a couple of chips, etc. According to someone in the know I've spoken to, such problems are easy to fix on an FP finish of course. Other than that, there are also some white flecks here and there, which apparently may be due to the grain sealer. This may require some remedial action but again, unless you know where to look and what to look for it's virtually undetectable. I think what I ended up with, is what I wanted, a piano that *looks* like what it is, a restored 1919 Model D rather than something which looks like it was just manufactured recently. Having said that, it plays like new and sounds like new, and this is arguably the most important factor smile

Quote
Originally posted by Chris W:
Stunning, absolutely stunning! Thanks for sharing your "after" photos with us. I'm hard-pressed to recall a more beautiful instrument.
Chris
Thanks Chris. I'm just so happy to have it back and be playing it again. It's so much more rewarding to play than the digital I was having to use and it was also a huge relief that I'd chosen the right finish even thought that was the main cause of the huge delay in having it back. I will be getting some more pictures as soon as I can and I'll post them on my soon-to-be developed web-page devoted to my piano. I'm even hoping to include some reasonable sound samples as the results I've got with a digital camcorder and PZM microphone are surprisingly good.

Quote
Originally posted by Calin: Hello Phykell! How was the damaged veneer repaired on your piano? Calin
Hi Calin. I don't know exactly how the veneer was repaired but I have some pictures of the kind of damage it had so you can get some idea of how much had to be repaired.

The following pictures show some of the original damage so you can get some idea of how bad it was:

Note the edge of the lid as well as the side of the rim:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/Graphics/Piano/Dsc00260_640.jpg

This picture shows how the corners had been removed and if you can imagine that the rest of the picture was actually a good representation of the rest of the casework frown

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/Graphics/Piano/Dsc00256_640.jpg

Some scratches on the fall:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/Graphics/Piano/Dsc00257_640.jpg

Paint, chips in the veneer and cigarette burns on the keys! Luckily the fall was not too bad and still showed some of the beauty of the original rosewood:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/Graphics/Piano/Dsc00268_640.jpg

Believe me, I have some much worse photos than that: Here's one and there's another in a moment:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Before_SideRimLid.jpg

I can't really say how they managed to repair some of the most serious damage other than to suggest that they applied new veneer where necessary and did their best to match the pattern. However they did it, they succeeded because try as I might, I can't see any obvious places where the repairs were made and having looked back at some of the pictures I've posted here, they really did do a good job of repairing it! Other than that, I know that the vast majority of the veneer was salvageable and once the old finish was stripped back and the veneer revived with a cabinet scraper, the original beauty of the veneer was revived. I guess it's fortunate that the quality of the veneer and the thickness they used back then was so generous because I'm really surprised they managed to use the veneer on the top of the lid as that seemed to be well beyond repair and I know they didn't replace it all. I do have some pictures of it being sanded back which are quite horrific:

This first picture is of the piano before it went away. Perhaps now you can see why I thought the piano was mahoghany and why I thought there was no way the veneer was salvageable:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/Before_SideTopRimLid.jpg

Now compare this to some pictures of the lid after repairing the sides and see how the veneer is brought back to "life":

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/During_Sanding1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/During_Sanding2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/During_Sanding3.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/199700/During_Sanding4.jpg

If you look really carefully at the picture before the piano was taken away, you can verify that amazingly the lid being worked in the other pictures is in fact the same one. I could scarely believe it myself but you can just make out the grain in the "before" picture and see how it ends up in the "during" pictures.

Sorry about the long post and I intend to do a better job of explaining it all on my website smile

Re: Should I go with French Polish or Polyester? #234762
02/17/04 11:47 AM
02/17/04 11:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 698
Dallas, TX
WynnBear Offline
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Dallas, TX
I'm sure you've heard this many times, but that is one of the best looking pianos I've seen! The wood & finish are gorgeous.

Congratulations, I know you had to wait a long time to get it back, but it sure looks like it was worth the wait.


Wynne
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