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AvantGrand N1 + VST #1836190
02/01/12 02:53 AM
02/01/12 02:53 AM
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Gigantoad Offline OP
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So yesterday I tested how the N1 would behave with VST's using the internal speakers. I didn't have very much time but the results so far are horrible.

I tried with Alicia's Keys and Pianoteq. Both sounded terribly hollow and undefined, almost like the big smear you hear when the sustain pedal is never released. Getting a good velocity curve will probably be hard too as I couldn't get anything close to feeling right.

Another strange thing was that the sound was coming from all speakers, but when using a headphone connected to the N1 output I heard a signal on one ear only.

Will try with Ivory II this evening hopefully and get to sort out some of these issues. I doubt the internal speakers will give any kind of satisfactory result when used in this way though.

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Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #1836245
02/01/12 05:56 AM
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Interesting. Let us know how it goes with Ivory.

Good luck,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #1836332
02/01/12 09:21 AM
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That's interesting indeed. The other person I know who has tried this did it using an N2 and didn't think the speakers sounded that bad.

The one downside of the AG speakers is that the line-in apparently has a noise gate, that silences it if the volume is below a certain level. So if you play a note and let it decay all the way, at the end it will flutter in and out.

Unfortunately since you have the best action and the best sounds available, you are probably not going to be satisfied using onboard speakers.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2276683
05/15/14 07:30 PM
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Gigantoad,

Can you please share the results of trying Ivory II with the N1 - both with the internal speakers, and with headphones? Besides the general benefit to the forum members and browsers of this information, I am considering purchasing the Ivory II and am very, very curious.

Thanks.

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Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2276797
05/15/14 11:20 PM
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Regarding the velocity curve, the most important thing is to map ~108 on the AG to 127 on the VST. Just clip those top velocities on the AG off when using it as a MIDI controller.


Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: gvfarns] #2276843
05/16/14 02:39 AM
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enzo.sandrolini Offline
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
That's interesting indeed. The other person I know who has tried this did it using an N2 and didn't think the speakers sounded that bad.

The one downside of the AG speakers is that the line-in apparently has a noise gate, that silences it if the volume is below a certain level. So if you play a note and let it decay all the way, at the end it will flutter in and out.

Unfortunately since you have the best action and the best sounds available, you are probably not going to be satisfied using onboard speakers.

Again, please stop saying wrong things.
There are no noise gate on AG...
I am daily using my AG mixing its internal sound with Pianoteq and using internal speaker
the results are, for me, perfect
I have spent weeks searching for the perfect mix, using Ivory2, Vintage D, Trukeys etc..
I got the best result with pianoteq
If you tune it correctly, it blends perfectly with AG internal sound
There are 2 important things to consider:
1. the velocity curve: 100 is about maximum value output (I guess AG makes a more better use of the internal velocity information, but gives limited output)
2. the audio card latency: It is extremely important to be as low as possible to get the right mix

I think mixing internal sound with VST is the best way as:
- I still keep the TRS feature which I love
- You still get the best dynamic possible from AG from internal sound (as its internal dynamic is wider than external output midi values sent)
- It greatly improves the internal sound

If you want more information, don't hesitate
But that way, I must say I got an extraordinary good results


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2276936
05/16/14 09:04 AM
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@enzo, I know I've asked before, but just once more: how bad does pianoteq sound through the on-board speakers (without blending)?
Some have mentioned a hollow effect; however, I wonder if this could be remedied by adjusting pianoteq's equalizer, and other relevant parameters: reverb, dynamics, etc; or perhaps even pianoteq's volume.
I've been searching for a Grantouch, but they're hard to come by.
Your approach (blending) is certainly an option; being able to keep the TRS feature on is a major plus.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2277357
05/17/14 06:27 AM
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Hello Pete
My first experience indeed produced hollow sound
but you have to adjust:
- the micro position Or simply use 'Stereophonic'
- increase treeble via equalizer
- and increase a little hammer hardness

I must say also that I got best result with the Bluethner piano in pianoteq (which is an add on you have to pay)

But you can fine adjust the sound via the equalizer and the mic positions as well
The dynamic must be set properly as well to not cover too much the internal sound..just enough for adding the 'liveness' of pianoteq sound


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2277398
05/17/14 09:04 AM
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Thanks, Enzo. I have the bluethner as well; it's great. Pianoteq (Pro) is perfect for blending, for one has fine control over tuning, volume, hammer hardness, and almost all available parameters on a note per note basis. It's time consuming; however, one can literally finely tune every single note to the blending source (Avantgrand).

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Pete14] #2277427
05/17/14 10:34 AM
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Exactly
I came to the conclusion that even If Yamaha release new models of AG with improved sound, it cannot match the result you can get by mixing with Pianoteq
As you get an extremely good sound, and you can change it as soon as you get a little bored with, or if you want to make adaptations for special musical piece
I am extremely happy with that combination


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2277444
05/17/14 10:56 AM
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Hello,
I also have Pianoteq but don't blend it with my Roland.
May I ask you how do you do to tune Pianoteq? Any precise tuner? just by hearing the same note layed on the 2 pianos?
Thanks,
SK

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: stamkorg] #2277447
05/17/14 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stamkorg
Hello,
I also have Pianoteq but don't blend it with my Roland.
May I ask you how do you do to tune Pianoteq? Any precise tuner? just by hearing the same note layed on the 2 pianos?
Thanks,
SK

Yes, by hearing the same note layered on the two pianos (by ear). I start tweaking pianoteq until I match the on board piano's tuning. The "twangy" effect some complain about when blending pianos usually has to do with subtle variations in the tuning between the two pianos.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Pete14] #2277536
05/17/14 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Thanks, Enzo. I have the bluethner as well; it's great. Pianoteq (Pro) is perfect for blending, for one has fine control over tuning, volume, hammer hardness, and almost all available parameters on a note per note basis. It's time consuming; however, one can literally finely tune every single note to the blending source (Avantgrand).
Holy smokes. You guys are tuning note-by-note with Pianoteq in order to blend? That is a daunting task. If you shared your Pianoteq fxp file, would that note-by-note tuning come with it, and if so have you (and, if not, could you) post the fxp on the Pianoteq site?

Regarding the noise gate -- it definitely exists on my N2, purchased in January 2010. But I do believe people who report that new models of the AG don't have the problem. Also, if you are blending with internal sound, probably the noise gate would become a non issue.

BTW - For those who don't have Pianoteq Pro, when Pianoteq 5 comes out, that may be your chance to jump up to Pro. I can't remember the details, but it was not much more money to upgrade to Pro when the Pianoteq 4 release came out. And it gives you note-by-note control (which I've never used, but now I'm tempted to).

I have some piano tuning software that probably would make this note-by-note tuning of Pianoteq to the AG possible. Very intriguing idea.

Last edited by kippesc; 05/17/14 02:51 PM.

Steinway B
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Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2277545
05/17/14 03:15 PM
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I've not gone as far as note by note tuning; however, as I indicated, it can be done. Realistically, it would be more practical to tweak the notes within the "playable" zone; in other words, ignore the extreme lower/upper end; since those notes are rarely played.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: kippesc] #2277547
05/17/14 03:19 PM
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I ma not tuning note per note, and Pete said that you CAN do that, not that you have to do so.
For the noise gate, Yamaha obviously removed it, as I have no problem even when I switch off internal sound and only use the vst sound (I have to do so in order to fine tune pianoteq through internal N2 speakers )
And indeed i have pianoteq standard version, not the pro version.
But as I am not using fancy functions, you can achieve it also probably with the stage version.
I am now eager to try the new coming version 5.
Today I took my piano lessons on a accoustic piano, and I really found that the action of my N2 is by far superior, but now, even the sound is close to the real thing, while i can adjust the volume and it fits my small room...the best comprise for me.

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 05/17/14 03:20 PM.

Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: enzo.sandrolini] #2341511
10/26/14 03:55 AM
10/26/14 03:55 AM
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I have to start by stating that I didn't have the time to read the whole thread through, but this thread nontheless seems to be a good place for my question... that I have been wondering about for some time:

How can the Avant Grands be used with external audio sources that are stereo (aren't they). The main idea behind the Avant Grand's sound sampling and reproduction is a 4-way system of first micropohones and then speakers.

So, you'll have to settle for stereo sounds with a software piano, don't you? Or am I missing something here?


Roland HP101e
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: valle] #2341548
10/26/14 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by valle
So, you'll have to settle for stereo sounds with a software piano, don't you? Or am I missing something here?

Pianoteq supports up to 5 channels with freely positionable microphones.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: JoeT] #2341619
10/26/14 11:43 AM
10/26/14 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jtsn
Originally Posted by valle
So, you'll have to settle for stereo sounds with a software piano, don't you? Or am I missing something here?

Pianoteq supports up to 5 channels with freely positionable microphones.


That's true, but the question remains:

. . . If you have software which gives more than 2 output channels,
. . . how do you feed all the channels into the AG?

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Charles Cohen] #2341661
10/26/14 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by jtsn
Originally Posted by valle
So, you'll have to settle for stereo sounds with a software piano, don't you? Or am I missing something here?

Pianoteq supports up to 5 channels with freely positionable microphones.


That's true, but the question remains:

. . . If you have software which gives more than 2 output channels,
. . . how do you feed all the channels into the AG?


. Charles


That's a simple one to answer: you can't! I guess you could feed 2 channels into the N1 and have a 2.1 speakers setup positioned around it. Not sure how effective or realistic that would be though.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: ando] #2341692
10/26/14 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ando


That's a simple one to answer: you can't! I guess you could feed 2 channels into the N1 and have a 2.1 speakers setup positioned around it. Not sure how effective or realistic that would be though.


That's an interesting idea -- one loudspeaker for each microphone!

It would be a bear to balance, though. The AG speakers would probably have different frequency response (and phasing) than the outboard speakers.

I think the AG designers wanted to build a complete, integrated system - and they did that. They weren't tasked with making it expandable or modular or very adjustable -- and they didn't.

. charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: kippesc] #2341872
10/27/14 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kippesc
Regarding the velocity curve, the most important thing is to map ~108 on the AG to 127 on the VST. Just clip those top velocities on the AG off when using it as a MIDI controller.


On the max velocity of 108 issue (and although the avantgrand manual says that velocity data is transmitted from 0 to 127), does it make a difference if you set the keyboard action to "soft"? (such an adjustment on my Numa Nero clearly makes it easier to hit 127).

Anyway, how much of an issue is it in the end? can you play (very) realistic classical, once the curve is adjusted, on Pianoteq only?


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Charles Cohen] #2341894
10/27/14 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
. . . If you have software which gives more than 2 output channels,
. . . how do you feed all the channels into the AG?

First you route them separately to a multi-channel audio interface. Then you connect each channel to the amplifier input of the respective speaker inside the DP. If the DP doesn't have connectors for doing this: That can be solved by every average technician with a few $1 parts and a soldering iron.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: JoeT] #2341917
10/27/14 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jtsn
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
. . . If you have software which gives more than 2 output channels,
. . . how do you feed all the channels into the AG?

First you route them separately to a multi-channel audio interface. Then you connect each channel to the amplifier input of the respective speaker inside the DP. If the DP doesn't have connectors for doing this: That can be solved by every average technician with a few $1 parts and a soldering iron.


Sure, and Yamaha is more than willing to honour the warranty on your new N1 when you make such alterations... wink

On a more serious note - you still have the problem of the placement of the speakers in the N1 might still make for a disappointing simulation of the multichannel arrangement (mic placement simulation) in Pianoteq. The N1 is a compact model with very small separation between speakers. I doubt you'd ever get a decently wide spatial feeling from the N1 no matter how you input sound into it. Maybe the stereo inputs are fine - you'd have to try it.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2341992
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So, if we add an outer spatial system to go with the inner spatial system we will have two spatials fighting for supremacy. The parallels would remain suspended in animation upon the outer and inner spatials; thus, creating an environment both convoluted and sparse; which by definition is a contradiction; however, upon closer observation of the systems in question, one can only hope for synchronization.

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Pete14] #2341994
10/27/14 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
So, if we add an outer spatial system to go with the inner spatial system we will have two spatials fighting for supremacy. The parallels would remain suspended in animation upon the outer and inner spatials; thus, creating an environment both convoluted and sparse; which by definition is a contradiction; however, upon closer observation of the systems in question, one can only hope for synchronization.

+1. (I think).

Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2344520
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Sorry to be so late to this post, but would someone please provide a brief explanation of what it means to "blend" Pianoteq (or the like) with the AG internal sound.


Aspiring Retirement Home Lounge Pianist
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: fntms] #2344807
11/03/14 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by fntms
Originally Posted by kippesc
Regarding the velocity curve, the most important thing is to map ~108 on the AG to 127 on the VST. Just clip those top velocities on the AG off when using it as a MIDI controller.


On the max velocity of 108 issue (and although the avantgrand manual says that velocity data is transmitted from 0 to 127), does it make a difference if you set the keyboard action to "soft"? (such an adjustment on my Numa Nero clearly makes it easier to hit 127).

Anyway, how much of an issue is it in the end? can you play (very) realistic classical, once the curve is adjusted, on Pianoteq only?


I was able to try the midi output at a shop: on the N2 the max velocity stays at 107 even if touch sensitivity is "soft". Minimum is 7, quite easy to reach consistently.

I compared with the midi output from the SH silent system on a C1X: max velocity is 125 (not too hard to reach), minimum is about 10 (harder to reach consistently than on the N2). Adjusting the sensitivity to "soft" made it a bit easier to hit the max velocity.
In practice, I'm not sure if SH would be much easier to use as a midi master keyboard for Pianoteq than the N2...


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
Re: AvantGrand N1 + VST [Re: Gigantoad] #2344840
11/03/14 08:09 AM
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I have the same problem with my Clavinova. It tops out at 108. There's nothing to be done for it ... though it really doesn't present a problem.


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