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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: argerichfan] #2344224
11/01/14 07:52 PM
11/01/14 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
......anyone doubting the awesome talent of Lady Gaga should listen in!

I used to think that the Lady was all show and no talent (i.e. no voice, let alone pianistic skills), until I accidentally saw a clip of her singing Edge of Glory at the BBC Radio 1's 'Big Weekend' show on TV (it's on Youtube, if anyone's interested) - just her and the piano - and was amazed that a current pop singer can actually sing in tune (with no evidence of autotune) and with such finesse.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344227
11/01/14 08:01 PM
11/01/14 08:01 PM
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Eldridge Offline
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You don't think a great performance has to be interesting?

I know people flock to Kissin's performances, and they get technically-competent, middle-of-the-road performances. There's plenty of demand for that kind of performance.

Give me an example of an adult Kissin performance where he takes any significant interpretive risks.

When I heard him play the Brahms, he sounded so uninvolved in the slow movement that the music came nearly to a standstill.

Last edited by Eldridge; 11/01/14 08:03 PM.




Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Eldridge] #2344229
11/01/14 08:20 PM
11/01/14 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
You don't think a great performance has to be interesting?
I know people flock to Kissin's performances, and they get technically-competent, middle-of-the-road performances. There's plenty of demand for that kind of performance.

Give me an example of an adult Kissin performance where he takes any significant interpretive risks.

When I heard him play the Brahms, he sounded so uninvolved in the slow movement that the music came nearly to a standstill.
For me "interesting" is insignificant compared to moving, beautiful, involved, passionate, cerebral, etc. I would almost never use that word to describe a great performance. In Dubal's The Art of the Piano(where he gives Kissin a sensational review). he uses an incredible number of adjectives to describe the playing of hundreds of pianists. He almost never uses "interesting".

Technically "competent"?? That sounds like a joke. Kissin has one of the biggest techniques of any pianist.

"Significant interpretive risks"? Who cares? I'd argue that most of the great pianists don't do much out of the ordinary interpretively(I assume that's what you mean)? They just play more beautifully, musically, intelligently, and move the audience emotionally. One does not have to take risks to do that. Unusual does not necessarily equal good.

I think most people watching his famous performance of the Chopin concerti as a pre-teenager would conclude Kissin is a pianistic genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggsc

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/01/14 08:45 PM.
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344260
11/01/14 10:10 PM
11/01/14 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
For me "interesting" is insignificant compared to moving, beautiful, involved, passionate, cerebral, etc. I would almost never use that word to describe a great performance. In Dubal's The Art of the Piano(where he gives Kissin a sensational review). he uses an incredible number of adjectives to describe the playing of hundreds of pianists. He almost never uses "interesting".

That's a good point, 'interesting' isn't particularly descriptive.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344269
11/01/14 10:57 PM
11/01/14 10:57 PM
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Agreed about Gaga's singing abilities. She is a natural. Her act is ridiculous however as are her songs.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: bennevis] #2344277
11/01/14 11:40 PM
11/01/14 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by argerichfan
......anyone doubting the awesome talent of Lady Gaga should listen in!

I used to think that the Lady was all show and no talent (i.e. no voice, let alone pianistic skills), until I accidentally saw a clip of her singing Edge of Glory at the BBC Radio 1's 'Big Weekend' show on TV (it's on Youtube, if anyone's interested) - just her and the piano - and was amazed that a current pop singer can actually sing in tune (with no evidence of autotune) and with such finesse.......


I watched a whole season of the UK Voice.. Jessie J can really, really sing. Huge voice, dynamic range, control and accuracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKfzXq1gcG4#t=213

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344280
11/01/14 11:58 PM
11/01/14 11:58 PM
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Land of the never-ending music
I like Kissin a lot.



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344287
11/02/14 01:04 AM
11/02/14 01:04 AM
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New Mexico
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"Moving," "beautiful," and "passionate" are about as generic as you can get and grossly over-used in decribing musical performances.

And what exactly is "cerebral" playing? Another over-used term that means essentially nothing.

Interesting = unusual, daring, not what you hear every day.





Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344426
11/02/14 12:28 PM
11/02/14 12:28 PM
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Kissin -----------------here
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Lisitsa------------------here
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Lang Lang--------------here


Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344437
11/02/14 12:55 PM
11/02/14 12:55 PM
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New York
L
LJC Offline
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LL is a great showman, also a great pianist. Wang is up there with the best of them and Kissen is #1 in my book. There are individual pieces recorded by each that are not my favorite recordings however they each have recorded things that are some of my favorites. As for them being inferior to the old guard I could not disagree more.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: LJC] #2344439
11/02/14 01:02 PM
11/02/14 01:02 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by LJC
LL is a great showman, also a great pianist. Wang is up there with the best of them and Kissen is #1 in my book. There are individual pieces recorded by each that are not my favorite recordings however they each have recorded things that are some of my favorites. As for them being inferior to the old guard I could not disagree more.

How old are you?


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Damon] #2344442
11/02/14 01:08 PM
11/02/14 01:08 PM
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JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted by Damon
Kissin -----------------here
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Lisitsa------------------here
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Lang Lang--------------here



Horowitz-------------here
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Lang Lang when he's on point-------here
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Kissin---------------here
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Lisitsa--------------here
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Lang Lang when he's being a moron--------here

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: JoelW] #2344445
11/02/14 01:13 PM
11/02/14 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Damon
Kissin -----------------here
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Lisitsa------------------here
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Lang Lang--------------here



Horowitz-------------here
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Lang Lang when he's on point-------here
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Kissin---------------here
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Lisitsa--------------here
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Lang Lang when he's being a moron--------here

I think you have the gap between Horowitz and the rest a little disproportionately small.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Polyphonist] #2344450
11/02/14 01:16 PM
11/02/14 01:16 PM
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bennevis Offline
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up here
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down here

Why does all this remind me of Knight and Day (Tom Cruise & Cameron Diaz)?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: JoelW] #2344459
11/02/14 01:43 PM
11/02/14 01:43 PM
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Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Damon
Kissin -----------------here
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Lisitsa------------------here
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Lang Lang--------------here



Horowitz-------------here
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Lang Lang when he's on point-------here
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Kissin---------------here
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Lisitsa--------------here
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Lang Lang when he's being a moron--------here

Liszt------------------------------here
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Nyiregyhazi----------------------here
Busoni---------------------------here
Anton Rubinstein-----------------here
Chopin---------------------------here
Henselt--------------------------here
Alkan----------------------------here
Thalberg-------------------------here
Paderewski-----------------------here
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Josef Hofmann---------------------here
Rachmaninoff----------------------here
Alexander Siloti------------------here
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everyone else----------------------here and further down wink

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Michael Sayers] #2344465
11/02/14 01:53 PM
11/02/14 01:53 PM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

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everyone else----------------------here and further down wink

How low can one go?



Maybe Jules Verne has the answer........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344469
11/02/14 01:58 PM
11/02/14 01:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,938
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joe80 Online content
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HI,

Personally I like Kissin, Lang Lang and I quite like Lisitsa too. That said, I know exactly what you mean and where you are coming from. Before I go on, I could point out that this very criticism has been pointed at pianists for many many years, and the gymnastic style of playing is really nothing new. Audiences have always been dazzled by pyrotechnics, and in a way there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself - it has its place. Sadly it seems to have found its place in pieces like the Chopin Etudes or the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto, which are two examples of where you need good technique and ability to fly around with accuracy, but you also need to be able to say something, to phrase, to produce beautiful sound.

There is a tendency in competitions for juries to pick the pianists with the strongest techniques. I think that's because it's a more solid aspect to judge - you can say 'He has a good technique' and have everyone agree with you than say 'She is a great artist, she played a few duff notes but she is a great artist'. Audiences become more used to hearing pyrotechnics than they do music. Although there were pianists who displayed little more than technical ability 100 years ago, many of them didn't make it on to record for posterity. Many of the great pianists what we have on record come directly out of the Liszt or Leschetizky tradition, (admittedly their teacher was that master of the technical work out Carl Czerny), and these pianists were more concerned with communicating the music.

I'm rambling but what I think I'm trying to say in a nutshell is that because it's easier to see who is playing the right notes faster than anyone else, it is often that which is lauded as great, where as artistry is more subjective. Arrau, Schnabel, Horowitz, Simon Barere, Dinu Lipatti, Tatiana Nikolaeva - are some of the great artists of the past. Yet, I know people who have told me they don't like some or all of these artists.

There has been a fashion emerging in interpretation over the last 50 years - and that is to buy an 'Urtext' edition of whatever you are learning, and play exactly what is on the page, nothing more, nothing less. So that means, for instance, if it says at the start of a Mozart sonata 'mf', and it doesn't change dynamic for 40 bars, you can end up with a somewhat pedestrian performance.

I heard a little anecdote about Beethoven talking with a pianist, and I can't remember where this came from so it's very third hand information, but it was something like this:

'I really enjoyed working on the Sonata [let's say Appassionata for argument's sake] but I couldn't maintain the tempo you had suggested all the way through the [development] section.....'

Beethoven fumes back 'I NEVER INTENDED YOU TO!!!'

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: bennevis] #2344472
11/02/14 02:01 PM
11/02/14 02:01 PM
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Posts: 9,326
New York City
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

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everyone else----------------------here and further down wink

How low can one go?



Maybe Jules Verne has the answer........

I am afraid there are so many things wrong with Mr. Sayers' diagram that I am not even going to try to list them all... laugh


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344502
11/02/14 02:57 PM
11/02/14 02:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,541
UK
Nikolas Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,541
UK
Me
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The world

______________________________________

Now that this is solved (and the word "me" is not limited to this times poster)...

Can you get back to bashing LL and YW and everyone else, please? grin

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Polyphonist] #2344510
11/02/14 03:11 PM
11/02/14 03:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers

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everyone else----------------------here and further down wink

How low can one go?



Maybe Jules Verne has the answer........

I am afraid there are so many things wrong with Mr. Sayers' diagram that I am not even going to try to list them all... laugh

I already can observe one flaw: the gap between Liszt and the first cluster of performers below is too small grin.

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