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Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated #2343964
11/01/14 06:29 AM
11/01/14 06:29 AM
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Batuhan Offline OP
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I don't understand why they are so popular, they are approaching to a piano like some kind of athletics. they miss out the composer intention and show off with their skills rather than convey the music itself like cortot, rosenthal, paderewski, horowitz, richter and every other great pianists did. i think %90 of new age pianists destroy classical music. for example I watched the last chopin competition and i dissapointed compared to old ones i remember dang thai son, pollini, zimerman how they played with such delicacy but today pianists are more like hammer hitting on the piano, doing weird facial expressions they are just attention seekers. I ask to myself what is the difference between today pianists and lady gaga i don't see any difference confused

Last edited by Batuhan; 11/01/14 06:39 AM.

Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2343965
11/01/14 06:46 AM
11/01/14 06:46 AM
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Years ago I saw a documentary of Horowtiz playing his last concert. He was quite frail by then and I was thinking, you have got to be kidding me- he can barely walk, how can he play? But he absolutely nailed pieces by Mozart and various Romantics with a touch and fluency which were celestial.
BTW, do not apologize for your Eglish. It is excellent.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2343966
11/01/14 07:04 AM
11/01/14 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Batuhan
I ask to myself what is the difference between today pianists and lady gaga i don't see any difference confused


Really?


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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2343969
11/01/14 07:18 AM
11/01/14 07:18 AM
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Kissin? Seriously?

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Roger Ransom] #2343971
11/01/14 07:18 AM
11/01/14 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Ransom
Originally Posted by Batuhan
I ask to myself what is the difference between today pianists and lady gaga i don't see any difference confused


Really?


Batuhan, you say that as if it were a bad thing.


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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2343979
11/01/14 07:58 AM
11/01/14 07:58 AM
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I can't comment about Lisitsa or Lang Lang, since I have heard very little of their works. However, I do enjoy listening to recordings of Kissin. You should watch the documentary/film "The Gift of Music" featuring Kissin, available on YouTube if you feel inclined to do so. I won't compare Kissin or Lang Lang to Richter or Horowitz in the same way that I won't compare Beethoven to Bach.
Then again, maybe I have bad taste or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about grin

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2343986
11/01/14 08:16 AM
11/01/14 08:16 AM
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Don't watch competitions if you want to hear seasoned artists playing with mature and well-developed interpretations. Competition players are young and they're playing to impress judges. Watch concerts of today's best well-established concert pianists instead.


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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344016
11/01/14 09:21 AM
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Don't confuse entertainment with virtuosity. It's nice when the two combine, but often entertainment leads the way.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: spanishbuddha] #2344045
11/01/14 10:31 AM
11/01/14 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Don't confuse entertainment with virtuosity. It's nice when the two combine, but often entertainment leads the way.



and don't confuse virtuosity with artistry. It's nice when the two combine but often virtuosity leads the way.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344048
11/01/14 10:35 AM
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The other two yes, but Kissin? I would have added Wang to that list.




Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344053
11/01/14 10:50 AM
11/01/14 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Batuhan
I don't understand why they are so popular, they are approaching to a piano like some kind of athletics. they miss out the composer intention and show off with their skills rather than convey the music itself [...]
It's the economics of commercialism in today's societies. Pianists that have something to say musically, usually do; deep personal art forms are something that doesn't market very well to the masses. If we want better artists on stage, we need more educated audiences that appreciate thought provoking experiences, over entertainment.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344083
11/01/14 11:59 AM
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We live in different times.

OP, The pianists you mention in your title grew up in radically different environments, cultures etc......than the earlier pianists you mention in the body of the post.

I seem to remember a couple of my teachers making similar criticisms about Pollini during the 70"s: ".....bang, bang, and still more banging."

During the 80's, Kissin seemed to be a child-prodigy-freak-show; that is, if you believed some of the cruel criticisms that I heard.

It was all overly petty, jealous and stupid: I walked away thinking that these former teachers of mine were certified "a-holes."

Performing pianists can grow up in public, not quite like our Gaga-s and Kardashians, but they can. Not an easy thing to do, I bet.

Sometimes I feel that Lang Lang is genuinely trying out new ideas onstage to see if they work or not (disclaimer: this is from video and audio, it's been a # of years since I've seen him live). If he is, then that's his prerogative as an artist - one that is still growing.

Do we need to like everything that he does? No, we don't.

To me, regarding a live performance as a finished product is sort of
part of a competition mindset. Or maybe it's fear.

I'm a Lisitsa fan, but damned if I haven't tried to find something that I dislike about her playing, and I couldn't. That was probably some strange ego thing at work.

Attention-seeking? I hope so. How are they going to build the career that they want in our current cultural environment without that trait?

I like to think that we all seriously want to respect the composer's intentions - especially if we are still students. But my "objectivity" in that realm can easily be interpreted and filtered by your perception as "subjectivity", and vice-versa.

I'm getting in too deep for a leisurely Saturday morning. I'll shut up now.

Last edited by Gerard12; 11/01/14 02:25 PM. Reason: Clarity

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Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344092
11/01/14 12:18 PM
11/01/14 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Batuhan
I don't understand why they are so popular, they are approaching to a piano like some kind of athletics. they miss out the composer intention and show off with their skills rather than convey the music itself like cortot, rosenthal, paderewski, horowitz, richter and every other great pianists did. i think %90 of new age pianists destroy classical music. for example I watched the last chopin competition and i dissapointed compared to old ones i remember dang thai son, pollini, zimerman how they played with such delicacy but today pianists are more like hammer hitting on the piano, doing weird facial expressions they are just attention seekers. I ask to myself what is the difference between today pianists and lady gaga i don't see any difference confused
First of all, you compared the three pianists to some of the really great pianists of all time. Saying someone is not as good as Horowitz, Richter, Cortot, or Zimerman would be true for the huge majority of professional pianists at any time in history.

Kissin IMO has been one of the best pianists in the world for 25 years and is incredibly popular with the public and often gets terrific critical reviews also. Lisitsa has gained great popularity from the internet and her radiant personality. Although I think she is very good, probably not many would call her world class. Lang Lang is a separate case. Very talented but more of a showman like some of the pianists of the 19th century. But as much as some dislike his playing, few can deny his incredible contribution to popularizing classical music and this alone makes him very important IMO.

I think it is huge big mistake(often made on this forum) to criticize the majority of young pianists as just bangers with technique and nothing else. Recent winners of the Chopin competition have been really terrific IMO, and I have heard at least a hundred concerts by young pianists who I believe show great musical understanding as well a big technique.

Some pianists who make facial expressions do it for attention but for many others, Trifonov or Uchida for example, that is not the case.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344096
11/01/14 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Batuhan
I ask to myself what is the difference between today pianists and lady gaga i don't see any difference confused
Lady Gaga happens to be a terrific singer if you heard her recent collaboration with Tony Bennett.

One difference between LGG and today's young professional pianists is that most of today's pianists probably can't play the piano while standing on the piano bench with their behind sticking up n the air. smile

I don't really see how anyone who has seen many of the huge number of terrific young pianists playing today could say that they all are on the purely entertainment level of Lady Gaga.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/01/14 12:29 PM.
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344134
11/01/14 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus


One difference between LGG and today's young professional pianists is that most of today's pianists probably can't play the piano while standing on the piano bench with their behind sticking up n the air. smile

Most of today's young professional pianists can't sing either. Heck, even Horowitz and Richter couldn't sing, much less stick their behind up in the air........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344141
11/01/14 02:30 PM
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I wouldn't put these three in the same bucket.

First, there is no comparison between Lisitsa and the other two. Let's take her out of this class because she is very inferior in every way compared to Kissin or LL. It is almost comparing an amateur to professionals.

That said I would not put Kissin and LL in the same bucket too.

Kissin right from the very start of his career had a usual normal, standard career of what other prodigies before him had. He plays predictably and solidly though some might find too standard and not so interesting at times. But nevertheless he is a great artist and deserves his place. I am happy that the world has him.

LL, is altogether on his own category. He represents the popular side of classical music mainly aimed at Asian and US markets. But it is not by luck that he is where he is. He earned his reputation too. Maybe it would be more appropriate to put him and Yuja Wang in similar categories.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Hakki] #2344190
11/01/14 05:25 PM
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I have yet to hear a truly interesting recorded performance from Kissin.

A few years ago, I heard Kissin play the Brahms First with the Toronto Symphony. It was wretched.





Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Eldridge] #2344207
11/01/14 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
I have yet to hear a truly interesting recorded performance from Kissin.

I consider Kissin an astoundingly talented pianist, and his video (as a teenager) of Prokofiev 6 just destroyed me. How could a young lad grapple with such 'adult' content? It is not music for youngsters.

That said, and with all due respect, Kissin can be oddly inconsistent. I heard him a number of times in London during my uni years (of course I knew everything then wink ), and a magisterial Schubert D958 oddly contrasted with a rather impatient assault on the 4 Chopin Ballades.

Of course the plentiful encores were great fun, including a breath-taking daredevil wiz through the finale of Weber's 1st sonata. Wow!

His recording of the Brahms F minor IMO was very fine, though I have not heard him play it live.


Jason
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344209
11/01/14 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Lady Gaga happens to be a terrific singer if you heard her recent collaboration with Tony Bennett.

Selected cuts from that album are currently in rotation on our local jazz station.

If Tony Bennett makes up in enthusiasm what he may lack in current vocal abilities, who cares. A great collaboration, and anyone doubting the awesome talent of Lady Gaga should listen in!


Jason
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Eldridge] #2344213
11/01/14 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
I have yet to hear a truly interesting recorded performance from Kissin.

A few years ago, I heard Kissin play the Brahms First with the Toronto Symphony. It was wretched.
But you are in a small minority because his concerts have been selling out for many decades and these are not the same people who flock to hear LL.

Not sure what "truly interesting" has to do with great piano playing.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: argerichfan] #2344224
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
......anyone doubting the awesome talent of Lady Gaga should listen in!

I used to think that the Lady was all show and no talent (i.e. no voice, let alone pianistic skills), until I accidentally saw a clip of her singing Edge of Glory at the BBC Radio 1's 'Big Weekend' show on TV (it's on Youtube, if anyone's interested) - just her and the piano - and was amazed that a current pop singer can actually sing in tune (with no evidence of autotune) and with such finesse.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344227
11/01/14 08:01 PM
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You don't think a great performance has to be interesting?

I know people flock to Kissin's performances, and they get technically-competent, middle-of-the-road performances. There's plenty of demand for that kind of performance.

Give me an example of an adult Kissin performance where he takes any significant interpretive risks.

When I heard him play the Brahms, he sounded so uninvolved in the slow movement that the music came nearly to a standstill.

Last edited by Eldridge; 11/01/14 08:03 PM.




Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Eldridge] #2344229
11/01/14 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
You don't think a great performance has to be interesting?
I know people flock to Kissin's performances, and they get technically-competent, middle-of-the-road performances. There's plenty of demand for that kind of performance.

Give me an example of an adult Kissin performance where he takes any significant interpretive risks.

When I heard him play the Brahms, he sounded so uninvolved in the slow movement that the music came nearly to a standstill.
For me "interesting" is insignificant compared to moving, beautiful, involved, passionate, cerebral, etc. I would almost never use that word to describe a great performance. In Dubal's The Art of the Piano(where he gives Kissin a sensational review). he uses an incredible number of adjectives to describe the playing of hundreds of pianists. He almost never uses "interesting".

Technically "competent"?? That sounds like a joke. Kissin has one of the biggest techniques of any pianist.

"Significant interpretive risks"? Who cares? I'd argue that most of the great pianists don't do much out of the ordinary interpretively(I assume that's what you mean)? They just play more beautifully, musically, intelligently, and move the audience emotionally. One does not have to take risks to do that. Unusual does not necessarily equal good.

I think most people watching his famous performance of the Chopin concerti as a pre-teenager would conclude Kissin is a pianistic genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFjh49ggsc

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/01/14 08:45 PM.
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344260
11/01/14 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
For me "interesting" is insignificant compared to moving, beautiful, involved, passionate, cerebral, etc. I would almost never use that word to describe a great performance. In Dubal's The Art of the Piano(where he gives Kissin a sensational review). he uses an incredible number of adjectives to describe the playing of hundreds of pianists. He almost never uses "interesting".

That's a good point, 'interesting' isn't particularly descriptive.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344269
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Agreed about Gaga's singing abilities. She is a natural. Her act is ridiculous however as are her songs.

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: bennevis] #2344277
11/01/14 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by argerichfan
......anyone doubting the awesome talent of Lady Gaga should listen in!

I used to think that the Lady was all show and no talent (i.e. no voice, let alone pianistic skills), until I accidentally saw a clip of her singing Edge of Glory at the BBC Radio 1's 'Big Weekend' show on TV (it's on Youtube, if anyone's interested) - just her and the piano - and was amazed that a current pop singer can actually sing in tune (with no evidence of autotune) and with such finesse.......


I watched a whole season of the UK Voice.. Jessie J can really, really sing. Huge voice, dynamic range, control and accuracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKfzXq1gcG4#t=213

Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344280
11/01/14 11:58 PM
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I like Kissin a lot.



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Music is my best friend.


Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: pianoloverus] #2344287
11/02/14 01:04 AM
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"Moving," "beautiful," and "passionate" are about as generic as you can get and grossly over-used in decribing musical performances.

And what exactly is "cerebral" playing? Another over-used term that means essentially nothing.

Interesting = unusual, daring, not what you hear every day.





Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344426
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Kissin -----------------here
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Lisitsa------------------here
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Lang Lang--------------here


Re: Kissin, Lisitsa, Lang Lang So Overrated [Re: Batuhan] #2344437
11/02/14 12:55 PM
11/02/14 12:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,585
New York
L
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member
LJC  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,585
New York
LL is a great showman, also a great pianist. Wang is up there with the best of them and Kissen is #1 in my book. There are individual pieces recorded by each that are not my favorite recordings however they each have recorded things that are some of my favorites. As for them being inferior to the old guard I could not disagree more.

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