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Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343750
10/31/14 03:04 PM
10/31/14 03:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
jacksonville
harpon Offline
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Here's the site, and if you punch up his store, you'll find some good instructional videos on some of the ads:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piano-Felt-..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e669f152

I've got a folder on my favorites I keep all the piano stuff in, to easily find it later.

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Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: harpon] #2343760
10/31/14 03:30 PM
10/31/14 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,015
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Balance rail punchings are not balance rail bushings.


Semipro Tech
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343844
10/31/14 07:45 PM
10/31/14 07:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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A454.7,

I agree 100% on all you said in your last post.

I've never spaced the keys by bending the front rail pins.

I've never bended (sideways) the balancing rail pins to level a key if the bushings are at fault.

I've never bended the balancing rail pins forwards or backwards, to make them touch the unworn part of the bushing felt. I must add that I even didn't know it was made by others.

I've never turned the front rail pins, except when working for a dealer who explicitly asked me to do so.

I usually try to work for people who has the money and the disposition to give their pianos the required maintenance. I avoid clients who ask me to repair their pianos with insufficient budget, just the same as I refuse to tune a piano in just one pass for half my fare. I don't do that kind of business.


Last edited by Gadzar; 10/31/14 07:48 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343862
10/31/14 08:30 PM
10/31/14 08:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
I thought you were talking about center pins. I often turn the front rail pins on older pianos. I also bend the balance rail pins back. Also, I have been known to use my voicing tool to size center pins by inserting the needle in the space between the felt and the wood, but in the wood. This squeezes the bushing felt around the pin. Similar to the method of sizing the balance rail hole.


Well, if turning the front rail pins is good enough for
you, that's what I'll do on my old piano.

When you say you bend the balance rail pin back, do you mean
you put a bend in the middle of the pin? So that the pin
will contact "new", un-compressed felt?

So basically you are saying you can needle the wood to expand
it to some degree, right? For both the front and balance holes,
right?


I take a screw driver and tap the balance rail pin back. So I assume the pin bends at the bottom.

The needle technique for balance rail holes is usually done with a watered down carpenter's glue. It's called "glue sizing". Without the glue, the hole might loosen up again. I've never heard of it for front rail holes.

The needling technique I use without the glue is for center pin bushings which are very sensitive to changes in size. It is not generally accepted as proper since we cannot assess the tightness of each bushing as we can while inserting new pins in each bushing. But for some cases where the owner's will not pay for that amount of work, or their budget allows for only a certain amount of work to be done, this can make a small difference.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 10/31/14 08:50 PM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Withindale] #2343865
10/31/14 08:41 PM
10/31/14 08:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
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Originally Posted by Withindale
A related question. What are the options if the balance pin holes at the bottom of the keys are also worn (longways, sideways)?


We had a demonstration at our chapter where a member used a system with plastic washers whose inside diameter was appropriate for the diameter of the balance rail pin.

The old keys were drilled out with a mortise type bit and the plastic washers were glued into place.

I know what you are talking about. When those holes get elongated, they can be quite a bit, and there's not much you can do.

I've also heard of techs lining up the keys and routering out a channel, then replacing with hardwood and redrilling. Quite a lot of work and requires super human accuracy and precision. But it was done once.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2343881
10/31/14 09:35 PM
10/31/14 09:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

I take a screw driver and tap the balance rail pin back. So I assume the pin bends at the bottom.

The needle technique for balance rail holes is usually done with a watered down carpenter's glue. It's called "glue sizing". Without the glue, the hole might loosen up again. I've never heard of it for front rail holes.

The needling technique I use without the glue is for center pin bushings which are very sensitive to changes in size. It is not generally accepted as proper since we cannot assess the tightness of each bushing as we can while inserting new pins in each bushing. But for some cases where the owner's will not pay for that amount of work, or their budget allows for only a certain amount of work to be done, this can make a small difference.



Ok, I have turned the front rail pins a bit on a few keys, and it seems to be less loose.

But how do you turn the pins without gouging the smooth surface?

They are on there quite tightly....

Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343917
11/01/14 01:13 AM
11/01/14 01:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,592
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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With the proper tool and underneath the punching. Scratching the pin is a good way to get more wear on the bush.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343922
11/01/14 02:08 AM
11/01/14 02:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
If you really want to "turn the front pins judiciously" as you say maybe you should buy one of this:

[Linked Image]

But you can use a pair of pliers or whatever you have used for the pins you have already turned.

Originally Posted by Paul678
Ok, I have turned the front rail pins a bit on a few keys, and it seems to be less loose. 

But how do you turn the pins without gouging the smooth surface?

They are on there quite tightly....


Do it now, ask later...


Last edited by Gadzar; 11/01/14 02:14 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343927
11/01/14 02:37 AM
11/01/14 02:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
A454.7,

Do you understand now what I am talking about?

Someone with no knowledge, with no experience, with no tools... he happily damages things.

Future piano techs have to study, learn and practice the proper way of doing repairs before they begin using short cuts.

Paul is already charging people for what he does on their pianos.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2343958
11/01/14 05:30 AM
11/01/14 05:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

I take a screw driver and tap the balance rail pin back. So I assume the pin bends at the bottom.

The needle technique for balance rail holes is usually done with a watered down carpenter's glue. It's called "glue sizing". Without the glue, the hole might loosen up again, I've never heard of it for front rail holes.

The needling technique I use without the glue is for center pin bushings which are very sensitive to changes in size. It is not generally accepted as proper since we cannot assess the tightness of each bushing as we can while inserting new pins in each bushing. But for some cases where the owner's will not pay for that amount of work, or their budget allows for only a certain amount of work to be done, this can make a small difference.



Ok, I have turned the front rail pins a bit on a few keys, and it seems to be less loose.

But how do you turn the pins without gouging the smooth surface?

They are on there quite tightly....


How are you turning them now? Describe the process and tools used.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Gadzar] #2343960
11/01/14 05:42 AM
11/01/14 05:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
If you really want to "turn the front pins judiciously" as you say maybe you should buy one of this:

[Linked Image]

But you can use a pair of pliers or whatever you have used for the pins you have already turned.




Damn, Rafael! If you don't want someone to do
something, don't tell them how to do it! grin

I already have that tool, and it works perfectly!
Fits the pins perfectly to turn them. MUCHOS GRACIAS!

Ok, turned an entire test octave, and it wobbles less. Maybe
I will turn all or most of them. REMEMBER: THIS IS MY
OWN EXPERIMENTAL/BEATER/$75 PIANO, SO IT WAS MEANT TO
BE EXPERIMENTED AND LEARNED ON, EVEN IF I MIGHT DAMAGE
IT IN THE PROCESS (WHICH I HAVEN'T YET)!!!


And you are wrong, Rafael: I only have been charging
for tuning, and very minor repairs/regulation. I have not
charged for turning rail pins, and even if I did, it wouldn't be
much, as it seems a quick procedure, even times 88.

And don't worry. I will try the "correct" procedure
of replacing the bushings. I have to learn it sometime...

THANKS EVERYONE!

PW RULES!!!

thumb grin ha

Last edited by Paul678; 11/01/14 06:17 AM.
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344006
11/01/14 08:49 AM
11/01/14 08:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
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A454.7 Offline
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Gadzar, I believe I understand your point.

However, FYI, I have damaged hundreds of pianos in my learning process. I have "formal" education in piano technology from a university, where, even there, I was instructed to do the wrong things like bending pins to space and level the keys--among many other problematic issues. Piano technology books are seriously out-dated, as too are the professional organizations that are filled with the same generation of peoples that wrote the books. What is the OP to do?

[Edit: there are some good modern piano technology books written by competent authors--it is just that good information is sometimes very hard to come by in the field of piano technology]

Paul678's piano business is none of mine. He seems to want to improve is knowledge and understanding in piano technology. Maybe it will remain a hobby, maybe not. Who knows? IMHO, the greater good is for piano technicians to share their experiences, in oder to help the OP on the journey...and hopefully destroy fewer pianos in the process, (ie being armed with more updated information). I should hope that the whole piano world would be thankful for that.

Last edited by A454.7; 11/01/14 10:21 AM.

Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344018
11/01/14 09:35 AM
11/01/14 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Originally Posted by A454.7
Paul678's piano business is none of mine. He seems to want to improve is knowledge and understanding in piano technology.


Paul's piano business is not of mine neither. He's asking how to do the repairs and I am telling him how I do. But he gets upset if I tell him he's doing it in a wrong way or if he uses the bad tool (or not tools at all).

I am an engineer. Marc Cerisano is an engineer and Paul is also (correct me if I'm wrong) an engineer.

But there are things that are common sense, one does not need to be an engineer to recognise a bad practice.

For example, using a screwdriver, instead of a piece of wood, to tap on the tip of the pins. Or bending a pin, wich is well lined, when bushings are at fault.

To improve his knowledge he must be informed when and why he's doing it wrong.

And instead of getting upset he should be grateful.

Personally I think there are too many tooners and improvised technicians out there, slaughtering and butchering pianos. We do not need one more. And that's why I try to show him the right ways to care a piano.

Does he depress the sustain pedal before inserting the mute strips and wedges? I don't think so. But I would be glad to be wrong.

He charges people for doing jobs without having the required knowledge.

I am contributing with my knowledge. Not for him, he does not appreciate my help, but for all the people who read these posts. They can learn the difference between good and bad repairing practices.


Last edited by Gadzar; 11/01/14 09:55 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Gadzar] #2344034
11/01/14 10:03 AM
11/01/14 10:03 AM
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Posts: 971
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar


Paul's piano business is not of mine neither. He's asking how to do the repairs and I am telling him how I do. But he gets upset if I tell him he's doing it in a wrong way or if he uses the bad tool (or not tools at all).

I am an igeneer. Marc Cerisano is an ingeneer and Paul is also (correct me if I'm wrong) an engineer.

But there are things that are common sense, one does not need to be an ingeneer to recognise a bad practice.

For example, using a screwdriver, instead of a piece of wood, to tap on the tip of the pins. Or bending a pin, wich is well lined, wwhen bushings are at fault.

To improve his knowledge he must be informed when and why he's doing it wrong.

And instead of getting upset he should be grateful.

Does he depress the sustain pedal before inserting the mute strips and wedges? I don't think so. But I would be glad to be wrong.

He charges people for doing jobs without having the required knowledge.

I am contributing with my knowledge. Not for him, He does not appreciate my help, but for all the people who read these posts. They can learn the difference between good and bad repairing practices.



I'm not upset, and I'm very grateful for your input, Rafael.

I got my degree in Mechanical Engineering, like Mark C., but
you don't need to have a degree to see turning pins isn't the
end of the world. Certainly it's not as proper of a fix as
replacing the bushing felts, but it works in a pinch, and when
someone might not have the time or money to have it done.

Podemos estar de acuerdo en no estar de acuerdo, mi amigo?

And at any rate, I DO plan on replacing the bushing felts on
this same piano, in the future. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing
it for the first time on someone else's piano.

With Tunelab and the two sets of tools I got from Howard Piano,
I have the tools and the knowledge to tune and regulate pianos: and I have even gotten referrals and repeat business!

But I have so much more to learn, and you just taught me
something new, so I thank you.

No somos enemigos, mi amigo!

smile

Last edited by Paul678; 11/01/14 10:11 AM.
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344073
11/01/14 11:41 AM
11/01/14 11:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Mexico City
Originally Posted by Paul678
With Tunelab and the two sets of tools I got from Howard Piano,
I have the tools and the knowledge to tune and regulate pianos: and I have even gotten referrals and repeat business!


Do you? Really?

Then why are you asking for help here?


No. You donīt have the knowledge and you don't have the experience. And if you repeat business is because your clients know less than you about pianos.

You donīt have the equipment, tools and supplys to repair a piano. (Hot pot, key easing pliers, sizing cauls, etc...)

Repairs have to be done before regulation. You can not regulate a piano that is not working properly.

It's like tuning/voicing. You first tune the piano and then you voice the piano. You can not voice an out of tune piano.

Worst of all is your attitude: you think you know. You really believe you do know. And you do not accept when you're told you don't. And it's obvious you don't. You have never done it before.

"I know it's wrong but I'll do it anyway..."

The first thing is to recognize you donīt know. Then ask for help or read or better get a mentor or see a video, before doing it and then the most important: accept and follow the advices you get.

There is a lot of bad info on the internet, you have to filter out what is right and not adopt a bad repair because itīs easier or faster or cheaper or because there are many people doing the same. Good techs are a minority.

Lay aside your ego and open your mind to learn.






Last edited by Gadzar; 11/01/14 11:52 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Gadzar] #2344078
11/01/14 11:50 AM
11/01/14 11:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar


Do you? Really?

Then why are you asking for help here?

No. You donīt have the knowledge and you don't have the experience. And if you repeat business is because your clients know less than you about pianos.

You donīt have the equipment, tools and supplys to repair a piano. (Hot pot, key easing pliers, sizing cauls, etc...)

Repairs have to be done before regulation. You can not regulate a piano that is not working properly.

It's like tuning/voicing. You first tune the piano and then you voice the piano. You can not voice an out of tune piano.

Worst of all is your attitude: you think you know. You really believe you do know. And you do not accept when you're told you don't. And it's obvious you don't. You have never done it before.

So the first thing is to recognize you donīt know. Then ask for help or read or see a video or better get a mentor, before doing it and then, the most important, accept and follow the advices you get.

There is a lot of bad info on the internet, you have to filter out what is right and not adopt a bad repair because itīs easier or faster or cheaper or because there are many people doing the same. Good techs are a minority.

Lay aside your ego and open your mind to learn.



I ask for help, because I'm still relatively new to the game.

You are wrong: I have key easing pliers....damn handy tool to
have!

You anger is your weakness, and I will be forced to put you
on my "ignore" list very soon, if you insist on everyone
conforming to YOUR method of doing things. There are many
RPTs who disagree with you, just look at the postings!

At any rate, do what you want, and know that I still thank
you for the info....


Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344085
11/01/14 12:06 PM
11/01/14 12:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
You're wellcome.

And I thank you for the opportunity you give me to show PW readers the difference between good and bad practices in repairing pianos.

PS: not knowing is not bad, the bad is not learning




Last edited by Gadzar; 11/01/14 12:15 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344112
11/01/14 01:15 PM
11/01/14 01:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Many people disagree with me. It can not be otherwise. I often disagree with Emmery

Originally Posted by Emmery
My point was that quite often a tech will state a valid/logical arguement here and it will have merit. Most if not all techs could agree with them and still...non techs with zero experience, no credentials, anonomous screen names will come in and argue, ridicule, or insult them.


But this time, on this subject I agree 100% with all he says.


Paul678, whoever you are, I recommend you to read this thread.

Here is the link:

So long... Emmery

And you'll see how professional techs, with a solid knowledge and background, are leaving this forum because of people like you.





Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Gadzar] #2344122
11/01/14 01:51 PM
11/01/14 01:51 PM
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Posts: 971
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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Many people disagree with me. It can not be otherwise. I often disagree with Emmery

But this time, on this subject I agree 100% with all he says.


Paul678, whoever you are, I recommend you to read this thread.

Here is the link:

So long... Emmery

And you'll see how professional techs, with a solid knowledge and background, are leaving this forum because of people like you.




Lol!! Emmery is one of the techs who disagreed with you
about turning the front pins! Read again:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1539054/Front%20Rail%20Pins.html


Maybe he's leaving because of YOU!

laugh ha

Re: Can 70% Isopropyl Alcohol Re-expand Bushing Felts? [Re: Paul678] #2344129
11/01/14 02:06 PM
11/01/14 02:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
I don't think so. He says:

"non techs with zero experience, no credentials, anonomous screen names will come in and argue, ridicule, or insult them"

And I am a tech, I have 9 years of experience in tuning, repairing, regulating, moving buying and selling pianos. I've put my credentials in my signature.

But maybe you... fill out the profile, don't you?




Last edited by Gadzar; 11/01/14 02:20 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
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