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Yamaha Construction? #2342529
10/28/14 05:39 PM
10/28/14 05:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 62
Arizona
T
tjbron Offline OP
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I did a little searching on the forum, and found a couple of threads from several years ago, but things may have changed since then.

I am considering new Yamahas in my current search (C5X, C6X, C7X) along with other pianos, like newer M&H's, etc. I have heard several places that no one rebuilds old Yamahas, because they are not worth it after 30-some years. I came across this dealer page. I'm sure he is knowledgeable, but I have to wonder if this is out of date rhetoric, especially with regard to the new CX series Yamahas.

Can someone explain the actual differences in woods, soundboards and plates that are noted here (compare US Yamaha construction with that of a new M&H, for example). And whether/how the CX series is different from the previous C series.

Thank you in advance!



1927 Mason & Hamlin BB
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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342538
10/28/14 06:07 PM
10/28/14 06:07 PM
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California, USA
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musicpassion Offline
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If you are shopping Yamaha vs. Mason and Hamlin I think your first question ought to be which sound do you like? They are very, very different from each other.

The Yamaha CX still uses the vacuum process for the plate. The CX vs. the C series is not a huge difference in my opinion. Everyone will perceive it in their own way, but for it me was a development; it's something a little different but still clearly a Yamaha.

People do repair Yamaha pianos (restring, etc.), and I think you could find a rebuilder willing to do an extensive rebuild if you wanted to pay for it. But the finances don't make much sense for extensive work as you could buy or almost buy a new one. I haven't seen rebuilders doing an extensive Yamaha rebuild on spec. A used Yamaha just doesn't sell for enough.

I looked at the page you linked. I didn't see anything (at least at a glance) that is out of date. Robert is, as you mentioned, knowledgeable but just like everyone else he draws his own conclusions. Many would agree with his conclusions, some would not. Ultimately you'll need to make your own conclusions about Asian pianos.


Pianist and Piano Teacher
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342550
10/28/14 06:45 PM
10/28/14 06:45 PM
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California
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phantomFive Offline
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Piano Buyer guide did a good review...o the C7, and CFX, I suggest reading it. A sample quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Owen Lovell
the C7X distinguished itself from the C7 in having what piano technicians often call "bloom": after the key was struck, the tone ripened instead of simply dying away. This aspect of the C7X, and its more delicate attack sound, combined to make an instrument that seemed at once more colorful, more intimate, and better suited to the romantic repertoire than the typical C7.

I've heard nothing but good things about the Yamaha CFX, and to me it does feel very nice under the fingers.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342577
10/28/14 07:35 PM
10/28/14 07:35 PM
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Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by tjbron
I have heard several places that no one rebuilds old Yamahas, because they are not worth it after 30-some years.

It depends on who you ask... apparently, the ones you have asked want to sell you a new one.

Rick Jones makes his living rebuilding older Yamahas and getting a high price for them. He's not the only dealer doing this.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: Rickster] #2342589
10/28/14 07:55 PM
10/28/14 07:55 PM
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California, USA
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musicpassion Offline
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Rick Jones makes his living rebuilding older Yamahas and getting a high price for them. He's not the only dealer doing this.
I guess that depends on how you define "high price". I just looked at his website and he has a lot of pianos in the $10- $15K range. Thats about the range I've seen other rebuilders sell a used Japanese piano with new strings. An extensive rebuild costs significantly more than that just for the work. What I meant is that it seems rare for people to spend $30K rebuilding a Yamaha.
Quote
Of course, that is just my opinion.
Rick
And what more can we ask for? I enjoy reading your opinions, Rick! smile


Pianist and Piano Teacher
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342592
10/28/14 07:58 PM
10/28/14 07:58 PM
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beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted by tjbron

I have heard several places that no one rebuilds old Yamahas, because they are not worth it after 30-some years. I came across this dealer page. I'm sure he is knowledgeable, but I have to wonder if this is out of date rhetoric, especially with regard to the new CX series Yamahas.


It may not be prudent to rebuild one of their small, entry-level pianos, but there is no reason why something like a C series Yamaha or KG (or whatever) Kawai couldn't be rebuilt, especially if it's something like a Yamaha C7. Since August, I have installed new sets of Ronsen Wurzen AA hammers, custom weighed to a strike-weight curve, on WNG composite shanks on two different 30+ year old Yamaha C7s. I don't think I could find a new Steinway B that sounds or plays better than either of these pianos, and certainly not a new Yamaha. The potential to do great things with these pianos is there!

Ron Overs , of Australia, has done fairly extensive rebuilding of larger Kawai grands, so he would be a good resource.

Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342599
10/28/14 08:21 PM
10/28/14 08:21 PM
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Posts: 1,406
SouthWest Michigan
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Roger Ransom Online content
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I can speak from experience. I have a 1961 Yamaha G7 that I had major work done to after it was about 40 years old. It cost me about $9,000.00 and I did not have it refinished, it looks fine. It turned out great and is part of me.

It would have cost me a lot more than that to buy a 7' piano of equal quality once it was finished. Money well spent. It was very cost effective and it will easily outlast me.

Don't believe everything you hear.


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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342606
10/28/14 08:34 PM
10/28/14 08:34 PM
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Posts: 62
Arizona
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tjbron Offline OP
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Ok, so it's not like Yamahas are all worthless after a few decades. I'm glad there is some market for them, and refurbishment can be worthwhile.

As for which sound I like better, I have played both, but there was a lot of time between them, and I also don't think the M&H was well prepared. Intellectually, I want to like Mason and Hamlins, but so far I have not been impressed with the examples I've gotten to play. I believe the Yamaha dealer will have an M&H BB soon, so I should have a chance to compare them back to back. Maybe I need to take a few days off from work and do a tour of pianos!


1927 Mason & Hamlin BB
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342656
10/28/14 10:47 PM
10/28/14 10:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,691
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Many older Yamahas are refurbished with an emphasis on cosmetics and servicing original parts, but rarely extensively rebuilt for resale. We've done many moderate rebuilds of Yamahas for customers with their personal pianos as well as numerous larger grands (C7 & larger) for institutions, but rarely do these good pianos bring even a breakeven price in the open market. There are many factors that contribute to this gap.

Keep in mind that, with millions in circulation and more moderate expectations of performance, many of these instruments can remain serviceable with only refurbishing or minimal rebuilding. The second important number is that 85% - 90% of Yamahas are less than 50 years old whereas most of the pianos we rebuild comprehensively are older than that.

Also, Yamaha has more viable competitors for performance and price than ever before. The product reputation and branding is excellent, hard-earned and enviable, making them an industry leader. Yamaha's growth was as a consumer brand, so luxury positioning will always be a challenge.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342663
10/28/14 11:07 PM
10/28/14 11:07 PM
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First Town, First State
BrianDX Offline
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My teacher owns a rebuilt 1973 Yamaha C3. It is the finest sounding piano I have ever played, and the action is buttery smooth. This piano probably has gotten 4-5+ hours of play most days of the week for 40 years, yet it still shines.

For about $5K in restoration costs she has an instrument that would cost $30K today to buy new.

It is every bit as good as our new C2X, at least to my ears.


Yamaha C2X | Yamaha M500-F
Groucho Marx: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
Curriculum: Faber Developing Artist (Book 3)
Current: German Dance in D Major (Haydn) (OF); Melody (Schumann) (OF)
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: BrianDX] #2342672
10/28/14 11:52 PM
10/28/14 11:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,691
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Originally Posted by BrianDX
My teacher owns a rebuilt 1973 Yamaha C3. It is the finest sounding piano I have ever played, and the action is buttery smooth. This piano probably has gotten 4-5+ hours of play most days of the week for 40 years, yet it still shines.

For about $5K in restoration costs she has an instrument that would cost $30K today to buy new.

It is every bit as good as our new C2X, at least to my ears.
Sounds like a fine instrument, but I would add that $5k is a very modest rebuilding budget. This is not disparaging of the work - it sounds like a smart expenditure. It's just that $5k won't cover the cost for most pianos in need of rebuilding.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342684
10/29/14 12:36 AM
10/29/14 12:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,072
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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I concur with Sam's statements.

I have one customer with a late 1970's Kawai grand that contracted with me to redesign the belly and action. He hated the nasal tone. He always wanted a Steinway B, but after 20 years of him trying to afford one and during which he experienced many of my rebuilds, he called me one day and said "put in a new belly and action and make this piano rich, powerful, singing and colorful." I said, "you will have more money in it than you can sell it for unless some fluke happens and my rebuilds become famous". He said, "at $25K, I can't buy a Steinway or Mason and I am getting to old to wait."

I did the work and he is ecstatic about the results as am I.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342705
10/29/14 02:27 AM
10/29/14 02:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted by tjbron
I have heard several places that no one rebuilds old Yamahas, because they are not worth it after 30-some years.


"They are not worth it" doesn't refer to the piano not being worth rebuilding, but that the effort is not worth the rebuilder's time unless the customer supplies the piano. Most of the money to be made in the rebuilding trade is in Steinway grands. All things being equal, rebuilders follow the money. You can't blame them.

It's not just about the consumer grade label slapped on Yamaha either. Rebuiders who can get enough Steinway cadavers to keep them busy will pass on many other vintage artist grands of equal potential like Knabe, Chickering, and Conover.

Anyway, it would be rare for a Yamaha C series that had spent its life in a home setting to need a complete rebuild after only thirty year and It would be very hard for a reuillder to find one on the cheap.

Look at Estrin's "Everything must go" web site carefully. Look at his inventory. Watch some of his youtube sales spiel videos. Then ask yourself again if he's knowledgeable or if he's spinning.


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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342758
10/29/14 07:16 AM
10/29/14 07:16 AM
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joe80 Offline
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You know something, I don't want to say bad things about Living Pianos but he does have a tendency to talk rubbish: In another video he says that in Europe, if you replace the soundboard of the piano, you're not allowed by law to sell it under its original name because it is then regarded as a different maker's instrument. This is absolute rubbish, there is no such law.

Where he's getting this information about the plate giving the Yamaha piano a metallic ring, and the metal being less dense I have no idea. I suspect he's heard it on the grapevine, or is just speculating.

He has lots of different instruments for sale, and they seem to be at decent prices, but when you listen to the videos, they're all badly out of tune and the tone on most of them is poor - most of them suffer from terribly weak trebles.......

You know what, Yamaha and Kawai are not the most expensive pianos of course, but they're incredibly well made, and they do rebuild very well. I know of a model CFIII that was rebuilt for a concert hall with a new soundboard and even Yamaha couldn't believe the results. OK, the CFIII is a premium model, or at least was when it was in production, and so spending the £20,000 on the rebuild or however much it cost was worth it in comparison to buying a new instrument at £85,000 at the time of the rebuild.

Using a Yamaha core and having it rebuilt might not be 'financially' viable in that it would end up costing you almost as much as a new one, but you might end up with a helluva beauty for a piano. Chances are a Yamaha from, say, 1975 won't need a full rebuild - it might need a new plank but it probably won't need a new soundboard and the actions have always been pretty robust so it's probably possible to rebuild what is there, or install a new action on it.


Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342759
10/29/14 07:17 AM
10/29/14 07:17 AM
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joe80 Offline
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PS - Yamaha pianos are not made from soft wood rims, as far as I know anyway, but I do know of one tier one piano that uses soft wood rims, which is BŲsendorfer

Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2342779
10/29/14 08:35 AM
10/29/14 08:35 AM
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First Town, First State
BrianDX Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Sounds like a fine instrument, but I would add that $5k is a very modest rebuilding budget. This is not disparaging of the work - it sounds like a smart expenditure. It's just that $5k won't cover the cost for most pianos in need of rebuilding.

I'm not sure what to tell you, other than the strings were replaced, as well as the hammers and other odds and ends. Perhaps because this piano was used in a professional environment, it was better cared for, so that other work such as replacing the soundboard was not required.

All I know is the results speak for themselves.


Yamaha C2X | Yamaha M500-F
Groucho Marx: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
Curriculum: Faber Developing Artist (Book 3)
Current: German Dance in D Major (Haydn) (OF); Melody (Schumann) (OF)
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: BrianDX] #2342801
10/29/14 09:12 AM
10/29/14 09:12 AM
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Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by BrianDX
I'm not sure what to tell you, other than the strings were replaced, as well as the hammers and other odds and ends.
Right, this is minor rebuilding, scaled to the needs of the instrument. More comprehensive rebuilding would include a new pinblock, all new action parts (not just hammers), bridge work, refinishing or any number of other steps. Replacing the soundboard on a C3 would be unusual.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: tjbron] #2342808
10/29/14 09:28 AM
10/29/14 09:28 AM
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Steve Cohen Offline
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There are some VERY loose semantics on this thread. Although rough, there are guidelines for the work done when repairing, reconditioning and rebuilding.

See the article starting at the bottom of This Page in Piano Buyer.


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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2342818
10/29/14 09:48 AM
10/29/14 09:48 AM
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Rehoboth Beach De. USA
Rich D. Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by BrianDX
I'm not sure what to tell you, other than the strings were replaced, as well as the hammers and other odds and ends.
Right, this is minor rebuilding, scaled to the needs of the instrument. More comprehensive rebuilding would include a new pinblock, all new action parts (not just hammers), bridge work, refinishing or any number of other steps. Replacing the soundboard on a C3 would be unusual.


She had the piano restrung, larger pins installed (not sure about the hammer work) and the action upgraded with WN&G components. The piano does sound and especially plays very nicely.

Rich

Last edited by Rich D.; 10/29/14 10:26 AM.

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Re: Yamaha Construction? [Re: Steve Cohen] #2342925
10/29/14 01:14 PM
10/29/14 01:14 PM
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BrianDX Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
There are some VERY loose semantics on this thread. Although rough, there are guidelines for the work done when repairing, reconditioning and rebuilding.

I agree Steve, but I think the thrust of the original argument was something along the line of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "It is not worth the investment to spend a considerable amount of money on a 30-year or older Yamaha C series piano to reinvigorate its performance".

I think what I'm saying is I disagree with that idea in a general way.


Yamaha C2X | Yamaha M500-F
Groucho Marx: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
Curriculum: Faber Developing Artist (Book 3)
Current: German Dance in D Major (Haydn) (OF); Melody (Schumann) (OF)

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